Magdalene survivors call on Catholics to boycott mass this weekend

renegademaster

they're dead right in my view and if this doesn't work maybe concerned citizens should occupy all churches and mic check each time the priest tries to say mass. make it impossible for mass to take place and they'll get the picture very quickly!!

http://www.thejournal.ie/magdalenes-boycott-mass-protest-998894-Jul2013/

SURVIVORS OF THE Magdalene laundries are calling on Catholics to boycott mass this weekend over the refusal of four religious orders to pay financial compensation to the women.
The group Magdalene Survivors Together asked people to stand with them and to withhold donations to local churches as a show of solidarity.
A spokesperson for the group said it was disappointed that the nuns are not contributing financially to a fund set up to provide compensation. The four orders have instead said that they will provide access to their records to allow for claims to be processed, and will continue to provide accommodation for the women who remain in their care.
“We want people to make it clear to the [Catholic] Church that people are not happy with how the women are being treated by the four religious orders who ran Magdalene laundries,” said Steven O’Riordan.
“We need the help and support from the public because it is clear that the Irish Government is totally out of their depth.”
The Taoiseach and Minister for Justice have said that the four religious orders do not legally have give money to the fund set up to compensate survivors of the institutions. However Alan Shatter has said he believes that the four orders have a moral and ethical obligation to contribute.
The four orders involves are the Good Shepherd Sisters, the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity, the Sisters of Mercy and the Sisters of Charity.
One survivor said it would be a “simple but powerful way” of sending a message to the four congregations.
“Why can’t they do the right thing? Why do they want to make us suffer like this?” asked Marina Gambold. “They made us suffer behind closed doors may years ago and now they are doing it in public that is shocking, disappointing and disgusting.”

Cody Pomeray

I think it would be useful to hear the religious side of the story here.

Apparently, what they are saying in private, to the media, is that they are already saving the state a large amount of money by looking after women who want to remain in their care. They also feel they are being made to be scapegoats by (i) the Government and (ii) families of the 'unwanted' women, which is what these women were first and foremost.

The McAleese report was an uncomfortable read for anyone who prefers to jump to one-sided conclusions. The blame that lies at the feet of the religious orders is neither unqualified nor universal. I'd be slow to come down hard on the religious organizations in question without them at least giving their side of the story.

Fr_Dougal

You could call it...a mass protest...

suicide_circus

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

You could call it...a mass protest...

Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaahhhh

bgrizzley

my pleasure...

WilyCoyote

I's a gamble that they could lose. More to the point if they encouraged Mass goers to abstain when the plate is passed around. Asking people to go against their beliefs (weekly Mass) is a step in the wrong direction IMO and could backfire.

Cody Pomeray

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I

I'd be slow to come down hard on the religious organizations in question without them at least giving their side of the story.

Im my humble opinion Cody, they have had ample time to give their side across, whatever that is..

Sauve

WilyCoyote wrote: »

I's a gamble that they could lose. More to the point if they encouraged Mass goers to abstain when the plate is passed around. Asking people to go against their beliefs (weekly Mass) is a step in the wrong direction IMO and could backfire.

How could it backfire?

Andersonisgod

Sauve wrote: »

How could it backfire?

They might be condemned by the God- fearing population of Ireland and then be sent to convents where they will be abused and basically be used as slave labour? Oh wait.....

KingOfFairview

Can't understand why the CAB isn't just taking the money.

My name is URL

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I think it would be useful to hear the religious side of the story here.

Apparently, what they are saying in private, to the media, is that they are already saving the state a large amount of money by looking after women who want to remain in their care. They also feel they are being made to be scapegoats by (i) the Government and (ii) families of the 'unwanted' women, which is what these women were first and foremost.

The McAleese report was an uncomfortable read for anyone who prefers to jump to one-sided conclusions. The blame that lies at the feet of the religious orders is neither unqualified nor universal. I'd be slow to come down hard on the religious organizations in question without them at least giving their side of the story.

They should still pay something towards the compensation fund.. just to avoid looking like the scumbags they are if for no other reason.

You're right though. The state, and the citizens of the day are just as much to blame for what happened to those women as the institutions themselves are. How many women were placed into care against their will by Gardai, and with little or no recourse?

WilyCoyote

Sauve wrote: »

How could it backfire?

I think most Catholics will obey the teachings of their Church first ie weekly Mass. AFAIK it's deemed to be a sin if you intentionally forego this. So asking people to commit a sin to back their leverage is a little arrogant. But asking them not to contribute financially at Mass would hit the Church where it hurts and would send a strong message.
Remember, the Church are merely middlemen. You give them money, they take a cut of the action and disseminate the rest as best they see.

kowloon

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Can't understand why the CAB isn't just taking the money.

The church should have been held fully accountable like any other person or institution should be, but in Ireland we have a habit of bailing out the undeserving.

squod

Can I withhold my taxes this week too? The gubberment are determined to make people pay again for something that has little to do with them.

Sensible option would be to look into withdrawing the pensions of the politicians, judges, priests, nuns, ''Gardaí'', etc who colluded against these victims.

stoneill

I'll be supporting, just like I have done every Sunday for the last 25 years by not to go to mass.

Cody Pomeray

My name is URL wrote: »

They should still pay something towards the compensation fund.. just to avoid looking like the scumbags they are if for no other reason.

I don't think scumbags is a fair tag. Here's some of the work the Sisters of Charity do. Some of it, including endorsing the Turn off the Red Light campaign, is actually very progressive for women.

http://religioussistersofcharity.ie/what-we-do/

If you're saying they should make a contribution in the interests of PR, if nothing else, then I agree with you completely. This makes the organizations look terrible, despite the fact that there are people within these charities who do very good work.

We have to ask ourselves whether the assets these people have are worth more being sold off to private ownership, or as charitable assets which do valuable work for the community and the economy.

My name is URL

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I don't think scumbags is a fair tag. Here's some of the work the Sisters of Charity do. Some of it, including endorsing the Turn off the Red Light campaign, is actually very progressive for women.

http://religioussistersofcharity.ie/what-we-do/

If you're saying they should make a contribution in the interests of PR, if nothing else, then I agree with you completely. This makes the organizations look terrible, despite the fact that there are people within these charities who do very good work.

We have to ask ourselves whether the assets these people have are worth more being sold off to private ownership, or as charitable assets which do valuable work for the community and the economy.

I know they do a lot of good work and would never dispute the fact, but it's still a scumbag move imo.

That's actually a mild way of looking at it. You'd want to hear some of the language my mam used upon hearing that they're refusing to pay up.. and she's devout!

Mr. Nice

I hope that anybody who supports them is boycotting mass, permanently.
It's a bit hypocritical to agree with the survivors but still go to mass, and Jesus hated the hypocrites as much as he loved the little children.

Wattle

It seems to me that on the one hand they're helping some groups of women and on the other that they're telling another group of women that they abused to go to hell. Where's the consistency?

wp_rathead

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I think it would be useful to hear the religious side of the story here.

Apparently, what they are saying in private, to the media, is that they are already saving the state a large amount of money by looking after women who want to remain in their care. They also feel they are being made to be scapegoats by (i) the Government and (ii) families of the 'unwanted' women, which is what these women were first and foremost.

The McAleese report was an uncomfortable read for anyone who prefers to jump to one-sided conclusions. The blame that lies at the feet of the religious orders is neither unqualified nor universal. I'd be slow to come down hard on the religious organizations in question without them at least giving their side of the story.

This bit is actually true Cody, families share large porportion of the blame but is unrelated to the issue at hand..
These institutions made ALOT of money on the back of unpaid labour that the women in the magdalene laundry's did- they deserve to get the money owed to them, on top of having to endure appalling conditions they were put under (eg: not allowed to talk unless saying prayers, having their identity taken and given different names, having their hair cut short so if they did "leave/escape" they would be easily identifable etc.)

There really is NO defending these organisitions refusing to contribute to the compensation kitty

Mr. Nice

WilyCoyote wrote: »

I think most Catholics will obey the teachings of their Church first ie weekly Mass. AFAIK it's deemed to be a sin if you intentionally forego this.

Emmm, no Ted, 'tis neither a venial nor a mortal sin to forego the aul' weekly mass - it's just a bad habit.

ScumLord

WilyCoyote wrote: »

I's a gamble that they could lose. More to the point if they encouraged Mass goers to abstain when the plate is passed around. Asking people to go against their beliefs (weekly Mass) is a step in the wrong direction IMO and could backfire.

I thought Catholic believed in the teachings of Jesus not just going to mass. I don't think it's going against their believes to ask them to stand up for what's right against an institution.

My name is URL wrote: »

You're right though. The state, and the citizens of the day are just as much to blame for what happened to those women as the institutions themselves are. How many women were placed into care against their will by Gardai, and with little or no recourse?

The difference is the Gardai have been reformed, the government has been replaced. I don't think the religious institutions have shown the same progress.

My name is URL

ScumLord wrote: »

The difference is the Gardai have been reformed, the government has been replaced. I don't think the religious institutions have shown the same progress.

It doesn't matter if they've been reformed or not, they still officially maintain that they were doing the right thing and completely refuse to acknowledge that they were, at times, working in cahoots with the institutions.. The McAleese Committee found as much.

An example of the approach can be seen with the section dealing with the Gardaí. Gardaí would arrest women who had escaped from the Magdalen institutions and return them to their clutches. There was even a standing order in the Garda handbook

“persons in institution uniform – if persons are noticed to be wandering about in the uniform of institutions, e.g. workhouse inmates they should be questioned and if they cannot give a satisfactory account of themselves they should be arrested”.

Asked now to justify this instruction- and their members’ implementation of it over the decades- by citing the legal basis for this action the Garda Report to the McAleese Committee came up with this:

[It]“may refer to the power of arrest at common law for the larceny of the uniform. This was a regular incident that Gardaí had to deal with and indeed some Garda records show that people have received convictions for ‘larceny of apparel’.

That is to say, the modern Irish police force are arguing that the women were being arrested for stealing the clothes on their back. This is presented as fact without comment or criticism in the Report.

http://www.mcgarrsolicitors.ie/2013/02/06/how-to-read-the-mcaleese-report-into-the-magdalen-laundries/

Ah.. they were just making sure nobody stole uniforms. Nothing at all to do with kowtowing to the religious establishment and their wishes.

Zebra3

WilyCoyote wrote: »

I's a gamble that they could lose. More to the point if they encouraged Mass goers to abstain when the plate is passed around. Asking people to go against their beliefs (weekly Mass) is a step in the wrong direction IMO and could backfire.

Yep, because that's the biggie.

Hit them where it hurts, in the pocket.

Always curious as to why people with "God" (allegedly) on their side need so much money.

Sh1tbag OToole

I think I'll boycott weight instead.. become an austronaut

pablomakaveli

If they won't pay up maybe its time to start taxing religious orders. I see no reason why they shouldn't be taxed anyway.

Knasher

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The blame that lies at the feet of the religious orders is neither unqualified nor universal.

Nor has the blame that has been put at their feet been unqualified, we are all aware of the complicity of the state and society in general in what happened. And while I'd accept that not enough is being done by the state to make amends, particularly in the area of prosecutions, at least some progress is being made.

These orders, and by extension the church in general, continue to make every effort to shirk responsibility and protect their pocketbooks.

Demonique

My mother refused to boycott Mass, I told her she was a bitch and that I was ashamed to have her as a mother

shruikan2553

So its business as usual for most of the country.

ScumLord

My name is URL wrote: »

It doesn't matter if they've been reformed or not, they still officially maintain that they were doing the right thing and completely refuse to acknowledge that they were, at times, working in cahoots with the institutions.. The McAleese Committee found as much.

If that's the case at least we can have some say in the matter. It is at least possible for us to track those Guards down and prosecute or fire them. It seems the church is untouchable.

padd b1975

ScumLord wrote: »

If that's the case at least we can have some say in the matter. It is at least possible for us to track those Guards down and prosecute or fire them. It seems the church is untouchable.

Long since retired/passed on I would think.

An apology from the Garda Commissioner would be appropriate, if a little belated.

COYW

Why don't the Magdalene survivors just go and protest outside their church of choice to get their point across? The media will cover it without doubt.

Asking people who are obviously committed RCs to forego their Sunday Mass is overstepping the mark. What is their beef with the government? They got a full apology from the Taoiseach, a hefty compensation package, including the monument they requested iirc and they are going to receive a hefty sum of money each too.

ScumLord

COYW wrote: »

Why don't the Magdalene survivors just go and protest outside their church of choice to get their point across? The media will cover it without doubt.

Asking people who are obviously committed RCs to forego their Sunday Mass is overstepping the mark. What is their beef with the government? They got a full apology from the Taoiseach, a hefty compensation package, including the monument they requested iirc and they are going to receive a hefty sum of money each too.

I don't know, having your life ruined through slavery would probably be a hard thing to get over.

COYW

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know, having your life ruined through slavery would probably be a hard thing to get over.

Which has been acknowledged by the government or has it not? Nobody is questioning that. So, I ask again, what is their problem with the government?

ScumLord

COYW wrote: »

Which has been acknowledged by the government or has it not? Nobody is questioning that. So, I ask again, what is their problem with the government?

It's hard to say seeing as the government aren't really mentioned in that article.

donegal11

COYW wrote: »

Which has been acknowledged by the government or has it not? Nobody is questioning that. So, I ask again, what is their problem with the government?

more moola

the culture of deference

Demonique wrote: »

My mother refused to boycott Mass, I told her she was a bitch and that I was ashamed to have her as a mother

TBH I do not understand why people would still go to mass.

After all the scandals and the history of the church, and in regards to their own commandments, is there anything the church haven't broken yet? The destruction they have rained down is worse than nazi's, pol pot etc.

I remember Ireland 30 odd years ago, the typical pious catholic didn't give a toss about, children's homes, industrial school's etc, pregnant daughters were shameful and anyone voicing an opinion about priests abusing kids would have been ostracised very quickly from the community.

grizzly

the culture of deference wrote: »

TBH I do not understand why people would still go to mass.

It's because Catholics have a duty to go to mass that is separate to anything that happens in the mortal realm, here on Earth.

corklad12

My mother and father went to mass as usual today. They said that there was a lot of people there today probably because of the good weather. It didn't really work in our parish. Religious people are generally going to go to mass anyway.

Galwayguy35

the culture of deference wrote: »

TBH I do not understand why people would still go to mass.

After all the scandals and the history of the church, and in regards to their own commandments, is there anything the church haven't broken yet? The destruction they have rained down is worse than nazi's, pol pot etc.

I remember Ireland 30 odd years ago, the typical pious catholic didn't give a toss about, children's homes, industrial school's etc, pregnant daughters were shameful and anyone voicing an opinion about priests abusing kids would have been ostracised very quickly from the community.

Hmm,worse than the Nazi party, really?

Who killed 6 million jews (and quite a few Catholics as well) and started a war which left 50 million dead.

the purple tin

pablomakaveli wrote: »

If they won't pay up maybe its time to start taxing religious orders. I see no reason why they shouldn't be taxed anyway.

Good idea. They're taxing the hell out of everything else so why have religions been getting a free ride for so long? Would bring some much needed revenue in.

Czarcasm

the culture of deference wrote: »

I remember Ireland 30 odd years ago, the typical pious catholic didn't give a toss about, children's homes, industrial school's etc, pregnant daughters were shameful and anyone voicing an opinion about priests abusing kids would have been ostracised very quickly from the community.

Have these people been asked to take responsibility for THEIR actions yet? Because as far as I'm concerned, they are just as responsible as the government of the day and the Magdelene laundries for putting their children in the hands of these bastards. They too knew and did nothing.

Demonique wrote: »

My mother refused to boycott Mass, I told her she was a bitch and that I was ashamed to have her as a mother

That's a shìtty thing to say to your own mother tbh.

JJayoo

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Hmm,worse than the Nazi party, really?

Who killed 6 million jews (and quite a few Catholics as well) and started a war which left 50 million dead.

Well technically Germany did not start WWII.

Femme_Fatale

Woo... people didn't go to mass and don't go to mass anyway. Some achievement.

My name is URL wrote: »

The state, and the citizens of the day are just as much to blame for what happened to those women as the institutions themselves are. How many women were placed into care against their will by Gardai, and with little or no recourse?

No, the institutions are more to blame. I really don't think e.g. my nana or grandfather was as much to blame as those who carried out abuses in the institutions.

the culture of deference wrote: »

The destruction they have rained down is worse than nazi's, pol pot etc.

You're having a laugh aren't you?

FrostyJack

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

You're having a laugh aren't you?

Watch the HBO documentary Mea Maxima Culpa, featuring our own Ballyfermot, and say that. The Vatican should be shutdown, every church turned into a homeless shelter and the former Pope locked up. Blood still boiling 2 days after watching it.

Czarcasm

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No, the institutions are more to blame. I really don't think e.g. my nana or grandfather was as much to blame as those who carried out abuses in the institutions.

I'm not going to personalise it because nobody wants to think that anybody related to them could've known about the abuse and stood by and let it happen, let alone encourage it and use the fear of it to discipline their children, and there's the thing- These institutions could never have existed, let alone flourished, had it not been for a society at the time who were intolerant of children they couldn't "put manners on".

To say people didn't know what they were doing to their children is just crazy talk. They knew, somebody knew, yet nobody actually did anything to stop it, and this whole making allowances for these people by saying "Oh it was different times, catholic hierarchy stranglehold on people who had nothing, etc", that still shouldn't give them a free pass for knowingly forcing children and young girls and boys into these institutions where they knew they would be abused, and then claim ignorance like they didn't know well what was going on.

Femme_Fatale

FrostyJack wrote: »

Watch the HBO documentary Mea Maxima Culpa, featuring our own Ballyfermot, and say that.

Still not seeing how it did worse than the nazis/Khmer Rouge.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm not going to personalise it because nobody wants to think that anybody related to them could've known about the abuse and stood by and let it happen, let alone encourage it and use the fear of it to discipline their children, and there's the thing- These institutions could never have existed, let alone flourished, had it not been for a society at the time who were intolerant of children they couldn't "put manners on".

To say people didn't know what they were doing to their children is just crazy talk. They knew, somebody knew, yet nobody actually did anything to stop it, and this whole making allowances for these people by saying "Oh it was different times, catholic hierarchy stranglehold on people who had nothing, etc", that still shouldn't give them a free pass for knowingly forcing children and young girls and boys into these institutions where they knew they would be abused, and then claim ignorance like they didn't know well what was going on.

People did try to speak out in little ways but only had so much power. What's this "nobody" about? And what about those parents whose children were dragged off them and placed in those holes? That doesn't look to me like a system that could only have existed thanks to support from society.

It's completely unfair to lay equal blame on ordinary people as a whole at the time - it is scapegoating and smacks of "I need an easy target".

Yes of course there were individuals who were happy to send their children there and supported this hideous system, but that doesn't mean "society" is as much to blame as the abusers.

oldyouth

grizzly wrote: »

It's because Catholics have a duty to go to mass than is separate to anything that happens in the mortal realm, here on Earth.

A Catholic has more duties than going to mass if he is to follow his God. Sadly, most Catholics deem it more important to be seen to do the right thing rather than doing the right thing. If there is a god, that is going to bite them in the ass big time

Czarcasm

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

People did try to speak out in little ways but only had so much power. What's this "nobody" about? And what about those parents whose children were dragged off them and placed in those holes? That doesn't look to me like a system that could only have existed thanks to support from society.

It IS a system that was supported by a society who saw the wrongs happening, yet chose to do nothing about it, because as far as they were concerned, the laundries was the place for the scourge of a "civilised" society- unmarried mothers, children who "couldn't be disciplined". People didn't try very hard to do anything about it because out of sight, out of mind was much easier for them.

It's completely unfair to lay equal blame on ordinary people as a whole at the time - it is scapegoating and smacks of "I need an easy target".

Ah come on now, as if the just "the laundries" and "the government" aren't an easy scapegoat for people? They're easy because they're big and and they're faceless, and they take the focus off "ordinary people" having to examine their own conscience as individuals and admit to themselves "I knew about this, and I let it happen".

They don't have to because hey, "The Catholic Church" is an easy target for the public to direct their anger.

Yes of course there were individuals who were happy to send their children there and supported this hideous system, but that doesn't mean "society" is as much to blame as the abusers.

I'm only saying that the people who knew at the time should also be held to account for knowingly enabling the abusers. It's much harder though to go after individuals and hold them accountable so people look for the easy scapegoat rather than examine their own behaviour.

Femme_Fatale

Nah, ordinary people is an easier target IMO precisely because the church is faceless. It's nothing to do with "Not wanting to examine our conscience" or whatever. You're expecting people to have stood up to the might of the catholic church. What exactly would people have had the power to do? Individuals in society did of course support this system, but not "society" as a whole. Individuals also tried to help in little ways. Individuals also did not know. Individuals also had fear. Individuals also had their kids taken off them by the priest/guards because they were deemed unfit to take care of them. Individuals were so wretchedly poor that the prospect of having one or more less mouth(s) to feed was an attractive one, such was their desperation. Individuals had a crappier attitude towards children in those days unfortunately - seeing them solely as labour, as a burden. Children had **** all rights in those days. None of this was right, but it was the norm and thankfully a lot has changed for the better.
It's very easy in 2013 to say "Ah they should have done bla bla, I would have" having never actually lived through it. It's pretty arrogant.

This kind of thinking comes from that Edmund Burke quote which a lot of people quote thinking it makes them look clever, when it's a load of blame culture bullsh1t. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph over good is... for people to do evil things and for people who have the means to do something about it not to (but who are still not equally to blame as the primary evil-doers).

Norwesterner

I'm going to boycott the BBC for all their pervy paedo presenters.