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Magdalene survivors call on Catholics to boycott mass this weekend

2

Comments

  • #32
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭COYW


    Why don't the Magdalene survivors just go and protest outside their church of choice to get their point across? The media will cover it without doubt.

    Asking people who are obviously committed RCs to forego their Sunday Mass is overstepping the mark. What is their beef with the government? They got a full apology from the Taoiseach, a hefty compensation package, including the monument they requested iirc and they are going to receive a hefty sum of money each too.


  • #33
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    COYW wrote: »
    Why don't the Magdalene survivors just go and protest outside their church of choice to get their point across? The media will cover it without doubt.

    Asking people who are obviously committed RCs to forego their Sunday Mass is overstepping the mark. What is their beef with the government? They got a full apology from the Taoiseach, a hefty compensation package, including the monument they requested iirc and they are going to receive a hefty sum of money each too.
    I don't know, having your life ruined through slavery would probably be a hard thing to get over.


  • #34
    COYW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭COYW


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I don't know, having your life ruined through slavery would probably be a hard thing to get over.

    Which has been acknowledged by the government or has it not? Nobody is questioning that. So, I ask again, what is their problem with the government?


  • #35
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    COYW wrote: »
    Which has been acknowledged by the government or has it not? Nobody is questioning that. So, I ask again, what is their problem with the government?
    It's hard to say seeing as the government aren't really mentioned in that article.


  • #36
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    COYW wrote: »
    Which has been acknowledged by the government or has it not? Nobody is questioning that. So, I ask again, what is their problem with the government?

    more moola


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  • #37
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,145 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    Demonique wrote: »
    My mother refused to boycott Mass, I told her she was a bitch and that I was ashamed to have her as a mother

    TBH I do not understand why people would still go to mass.

    After all the scandals and the history of the church, and in regards to their own commandments, is there anything the church haven't broken yet? The destruction they have rained down is worse than nazi's, pol pot etc.

    I remember Ireland 30 odd years ago, the typical pious catholic didn't give a toss about, children's homes, industrial school's etc, pregnant daughters were shameful and anyone voicing an opinion about priests abusing kids would have been ostracised very quickly from the community.


  • #38
    grizzly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭grizzly


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    TBH I do not understand why people would still go to mass.

    It's because Catholics have a duty to go to mass that is separate to anything that happens in the mortal realm, here on Earth.


  • #39
    corklad12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 66 ✭✭corklad12


    My mother and father went to mass as usual today. They said that there was a lot of people there today probably because of the good weather. It didn't really work in our parish. Religious people are generally going to go to mass anyway.


  • #40
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,185 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    TBH I do not understand why people would still go to mass.

    After all the scandals and the history of the church, and in regards to their own commandments, is there anything the church haven't broken yet? The destruction they have rained down is worse than nazi's, pol pot etc.

    I remember Ireland 30 odd years ago, the typical pious catholic didn't give a toss about, children's homes, industrial school's etc, pregnant daughters were shameful and anyone voicing an opinion about priests abusing kids would have been ostracised very quickly from the community.

    Hmm,worse than the Nazi party, really?

    Who killed 6 million jews (and quite a few Catholics as well) and started a war which left 50 million dead.


  • #41
    the purple tin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    If they won't pay up maybe its time to start taxing religious orders. I see no reason why they shouldn't be taxed anyway.
    Good idea. They're taxing the hell out of everything else so why have religions been getting a free ride for so long? Would bring some much needed revenue in.


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  • #42
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    I remember Ireland 30 odd years ago, the typical pious catholic didn't give a toss about, children's homes, industrial school's etc, pregnant daughters were shameful and anyone voicing an opinion about priests abusing kids would have been ostracised very quickly from the community.


    Have these people been asked to take responsibility for THEIR actions yet? Because as far as I'm concerned, they are just as responsible as the government of the day and the Magdelene laundries for putting their children in the hands of these bastards. They too knew and did nothing.

    Demonique wrote: »
    My mother refused to boycott Mass, I told her she was a bitch and that I was ashamed to have her as a mother


    That's a shìtty thing to say to your own mother tbh.


  • #43
    JJayoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,045 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Hmm,worse than the Nazi party, really?

    Who killed 6 million jews (and quite a few Catholics as well) and started a war which left 50 million dead.

    Well technically Germany did not start WWII.


  • #44
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Woo... people didn't go to mass and don't go to mass anyway. Some achievement.
    My name is URL wrote: »
    The state, and the citizens of the day are just as much to blame for what happened to those women as the institutions themselves are. How many women were placed into care against their will by Gardai, and with little or no recourse?
    No, the institutions are more to blame. I really don't think e.g. my nana or grandfather was as much to blame as those who carried out abuses in the institutions.
    the culture of deference wrote: »
    The destruction they have rained down is worse than nazi's, pol pot etc.
    You're having a laugh aren't you?


  • #45
    FrostyJack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭FrostyJack


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    You're having a laugh aren't you?

    Watch the HBO documentary Mea Maxima Culpa, featuring our own Ballyfermot, and say that. The Vatican should be shutdown, every church turned into a homeless shelter and the former Pope locked up. Blood still boiling 2 days after watching it.


  • #46
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    No, the institutions are more to blame. I really don't think e.g. my nana or grandfather was as much to blame as those who carried out abuses in the institutions.


    I'm not going to personalise it because nobody wants to think that anybody related to them could've known about the abuse and stood by and let it happen, let alone encourage it and use the fear of it to discipline their children, and there's the thing- These institutions could never have existed, let alone flourished, had it not been for a society at the time who were intolerant of children they couldn't "put manners on".

    To say people didn't know what they were doing to their children is just crazy talk. They knew, somebody knew, yet nobody actually did anything to stop it, and this whole making allowances for these people by saying "Oh it was different times, catholic hierarchy stranglehold on people who had nothing, etc", that still shouldn't give them a free pass for knowingly forcing children and young girls and boys into these institutions where they knew they would be abused, and then claim ignorance like they didn't know well what was going on.


  • #47
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    FrostyJack wrote: »
    Watch the HBO documentary Mea Maxima Culpa, featuring our own Ballyfermot, and say that.
    Still not seeing how it did worse than the nazis/Khmer Rouge.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I'm not going to personalise it because nobody wants to think that anybody related to them could've known about the abuse and stood by and let it happen, let alone encourage it and use the fear of it to discipline their children, and there's the thing- These institutions could never have existed, let alone flourished, had it not been for a society at the time who were intolerant of children they couldn't "put manners on".

    To say people didn't know what they were doing to their children is just crazy talk. They knew, somebody knew, yet nobody actually did anything to stop it, and this whole making allowances for these people by saying "Oh it was different times, catholic hierarchy stranglehold on people who had nothing, etc", that still shouldn't give them a free pass for knowingly forcing children and young girls and boys into these institutions where they knew they would be abused, and then claim ignorance like they didn't know well what was going on.
    People did try to speak out in little ways but only had so much power. What's this "nobody" about? And what about those parents whose children were dragged off them and placed in those holes? That doesn't look to me like a system that could only have existed thanks to support from society.

    It's completely unfair to lay equal blame on ordinary people as a whole at the time - it is scapegoating and smacks of "I need an easy target".

    Yes of course there were individuals who were happy to send their children there and supported this hideous system, but that doesn't mean "society" is as much to blame as the abusers.


  • #48
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    grizzly wrote: »
    It's because Catholics have a duty to go to mass than is separate to anything that happens in the mortal realm, here on Earth.

    A Catholic has more duties than going to mass if he is to follow his God. Sadly, most Catholics deem it more important to be seen to do the right thing rather than doing the right thing. If there is a god, that is going to bite them in the ass big time


  • #49
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    People did try to speak out in little ways but only had so much power. What's this "nobody" about? And what about those parents whose children were dragged off them and placed in those holes? That doesn't look to me like a system that could only have existed thanks to support from society.


    It IS a system that was supported by a society who saw the wrongs happening, yet chose to do nothing about it, because as far as they were concerned, the laundries was the place for the scourge of a "civilised" society- unmarried mothers, children who "couldn't be disciplined". People didn't try very hard to do anything about it because out of sight, out of mind was much easier for them.

    It's completely unfair to lay equal blame on ordinary people as a whole at the time - it is scapegoating and smacks of "I need an easy target".


    Ah come on now, as if the just "the laundries" and "the government" aren't an easy scapegoat for people? They're easy because they're big and and they're faceless, and they take the focus off "ordinary people" having to examine their own conscience as individuals and admit to themselves "I knew about this, and I let it happen".

    They don't have to because hey, "The Catholic Church" is an easy target for the public to direct their anger.

    Yes of course there were individuals who were happy to send their children there and supported this hideous system, but that doesn't mean "society" is as much to blame as the abusers.


    I'm only saying that the people who knew at the time should also be held to account for knowingly enabling the abusers. It's much harder though to go after individuals and hold them accountable so people look for the easy scapegoat rather than examine their own behaviour.


  • #50
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Nah, ordinary people is an easier target IMO precisely because the church is faceless. It's nothing to do with "Not wanting to examine our conscience" or whatever. You're expecting people to have stood up to the might of the catholic church. What exactly would people have had the power to do? Individuals in society did of course support this system, but not "society" as a whole. Individuals also tried to help in little ways. Individuals also did not know. Individuals also had fear. Individuals also had their kids taken off them by the priest/guards because they were deemed unfit to take care of them. Individuals were so wretchedly poor that the prospect of having one or more less mouth(s) to feed was an attractive one, such was their desperation. Individuals had a crappier attitude towards children in those days unfortunately - seeing them solely as labour, as a burden. Children had **** all rights in those days. None of this was right, but it was the norm and thankfully a lot has changed for the better.
    It's very easy in 2013 to say "Ah they should have done bla bla, I would have" having never actually lived through it. It's pretty arrogant.

    This kind of thinking comes from that Edmund Burke quote which a lot of people quote thinking it makes them look clever, when it's a load of blame culture bullsh1t. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph over good is... for people to do evil things and for people who have the means to do something about it not to (but who are still not equally to blame as the primary evil-doers).


  • #51
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    I'm going to boycott the BBC for all their pervy paedo presenters.


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  • #52
    MOC88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭MOC88


    COYW wrote: »
    Why don't the Magdalene survivors just go and protest outside their church of choice to get their point across? The media will cover it without doubt.

    Asking people who are obviously committed RCs to forego their Sunday Mass is overstepping the mark. What is their beef with the government? They got a full apology from the Taoiseach, a hefty compensation package, including the monument they requested iirc and they are going to receive a hefty sum of money each too.

    Yep never mind children being taken away from them - years of mental anguish and of course the many who have died long ago both inside and outside of the Magdalene laundires who will never get any of what they are OWED.

    Nobody can ever give back time.


  • #53
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,299 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    If these cu.nts don't wanna pay up, start bringing criminal charges against them for their various crimes.

    Of course, we could just do that anyway. :rolleyes:


  • #54
    MOC88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭MOC88


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Nah, ordinary people is an easier target IMO precisely because the church is faceless. It's nothing to do with "Not wanting to examine our conscience" or whatever. You're expecting people to have stood up to the might of the catholic church. What exactly would people have had the power to do? Individuals in society did of course support this system, but not "society" as a whole. Individuals also tried to help in little ways. Individuals also did not know. Individuals also had fear. Individuals also had their kids taken off them by the priest/guards because they were deemed unfit to take care of them. Individuals were so wretchedly poor that the prospect of having one or more less mouth(s) to feed was an attractive one, such was their desperation. Individuals had a crappier attitude towards children in those days unfortunately - seeing them solely as labour, as a burden. Children had **** all rights in those days. None of this was right, but it was the norm and thankfully a lot has changed for the better.
    It's very easy in 2013 to say "Ah they should have done bla bla, I would have" having never actually lived through it. It's pretty arrogant.

    This kind of thinking comes from that Edmund Burke quote which a lot of people quote thinking it makes them look clever, when it's a load of blame culture bullsh1t. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph over good is... for people to do evil things and for people who have the means to do something about it not to (but who are not equally to blame as the evildoers).

    I'd agree with a lot of this. I'd compare it to the banking issues and the corruption we see in nowadays. What can you do? Heck even if you heckle a politician you're a maniac etc. going from the recent thread. We see murderers/rapists etc. walk free every day with extremely unusual sentencing from obviously corrupt judges yet have I seen anyone do anything about it? No.


  • #55
    MOC88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭MOC88


    JJayoo wrote: »
    Well technically Germany did not start WWII.

    Yeah they did, technically or otherwise. They attacked a country that was allied with France and the U.K. which brought them in, brought Russia in to it at as well. Pity for Poland nobody have a feck about them after the Germans were staved off


  • #56
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,299 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    MOC88 wrote: »
    Yeah they did, technically or otherwise. They attacked a country that was allied with France and the U.K. which brought them in, brought Russia in to it at as well. Pity for Poland nobody have a feck about them after the Germans were staved off

    Well, Britain and France were occupying plenty of other countries at the time.

    Totally off-topic anyway.


  • #57
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    If these cu.nts don't wanna pay up, start bringing criminal charges against them for their various crimes.

    Of course, we could just do that anyway. :rolleyes:
    Not all Nuns were guilty.
    Why should innocent Nuns pay for the crimes of the guilty.
    Should ALL teachers be hit economically for the actions of some paedo teachers?


  • #58
    MOC88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭MOC88


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    Not all Nuns were guilty.
    Why should innocent Nuns pay for the crimes of the guilty.
    Should ALL teachers be hit economically for the actions of some paedo teachers?

    I would have thought its more about what the organisation did and what they stand for.


  • #59
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Nah, ordinary people is an easier target IMO precisely because the church is faceless. It's nothing to do with "Not wanting to examine our conscience" or whatever. You're expecting people to have stood up to the might of the catholic church. What exactly would people have had the power to do? Individuals in society did of course support this system, but not "society" as a whole. Individuals also tried to help in little ways. Individuals also did not know. Individuals also had fear. Individuals also had their kids taken off them by the priest/guards because they were deemed unfit to take care of them. Individuals were so wretchedly poor that the prospect of having one or more less mouth(s) to feed was an attractive one, such was their desperation. Individuals had a crappier attitude towards children in those days unfortunately - seeing them solely as labour, as a burden. Children had **** all rights in those days. None of this was right, but it was the norm and thankfully a lot has changed for the better.


    But all these individuals made up that society surely? You're right in saying that children were seen as a burden and as labor, and that's why the pervasive attitude in society allowed for them to be taken away or given into care, because society simply didn't care. Individuals could've said "You'll take those children away to be raped over my dead body", but they didn't, for the most part they LET it happen and to claim they were ignorant of the way the children would be treated is purely disingenuous when the threat of being sent to the laundries was used as a tool to instill fear and discipline in these young women and children.

    It's very easy in 2013 to say "Ah they should have done bla bla, I would have" having never actually lived through it. It's pretty arrogant.


    It's not arrogance FF, it's an opinion based on having experience of adults who KNEW of children who were being abused, yet chose to do nothing, and still to this day abuse of children goes on and adults know about it, yet choose yet again to do nothing about it, because "It's not MY problem, I don't want to be involved in that". It's not fear of authority at all, it's that they'd rather turn a blind eye to it and pretend it isn't happening, not in their quiet neighbourhood.

    This kind of thinking comes from that Edmund Burke quote which a lot of people quote thinking it makes them look clever, when it's a load of blame culture bullsh1t. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph over good is... for people to do evil things and for people who have the means to do something about it not to (but who are not equally to blame as the evildoers).


    I had to google Edmund Burke (I thought he was another Stephen Fry-like twat as I didn't immediately recognise the quote), but no, rest assured, that's not where it comes from at all at all.

    I just don't think Irish society as it was at the time (and still very much is now), should get a free pass for knowingly allowing young women and children to be abused in these institutions.

    My own personal feelings on the victims of these institutions seeking monetary redress for the abuse they suffered is that they should tell the government and the institutions to shove their redress board as far up their holes as it'll go, because money will never make up for what was done to them, and all they're doing by carrying on trying to fight for what they see as justice, is holding on to their pain and bitterness.

    The government doesn't care, the institutions don't care, and Irish society, well, as you say FF - it's a lot easier to pay lip service to an idea than it is to act on it, and a hell of a lot easier again to keyboard warriorize about the catholic church being this that and the other, when the REAL problem is an apathetic society that doesn't want to rock the boat because the problem isn't visible at least on their doorstep.

    Irish society hasn't changed as much from the 50's and 60's as we like to think we have, but it's easier to fob the blame for that on the Catholic Church, despite the fact that they've had very little influence in Irish society since Gay Byrne tore Cathal Daly a new one on the Late Late Show nearly 20 years ago now.


  • #60
    Norwesterner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    MOC88 wrote: »
    I would have thought its more about what the organisation did and what they stand for.
    It's the Church of choice for 1.2 Billion worldwide.
    Really this generalisation that the Church represents or stands for paedoplhilia or abuse is as fair as saying suicide bombers are representative of Islam.
    I don't believe the level of paedophilia in the Church is any greater than the rate within the general public at large.
    A lot of vested interests (lefties, feminists, etc) have jumped on this bandwagon to further their agendas and their sectarian hatefilled minds..


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  • #61
    Mr. G
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 4,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭Mr. G


    To think that the church had a stand to go out and make a heavy statement regarding abortion after what they have done with survivors of the magdelene launderies and of other things really annoys me. There's a line they crossed. Several years ago.

    So yes I support anyone who boycotts mass this weekend.


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