Rifle and scope which ones?

German pointer

Same old story done to death I know.

I go to bed at night wanting a .204 and wake up in the morning wanting a .233 and the next night it is the opposite. I would be looking for it for rabbits and corvids out to 300 or 400 yards, with the odd fox in closer. Ammo price not a huge concern as while I know that I will be trigger happy for the first few months I will settle down into it as a hunting rifle.

What would your choices be and why?

Also what sort of scope do ye think would be best for your choice?

I have a .270 and a .22lr I am looking for something to fill the gap in the middle.

ormondprop

I have had both and now have a cz in .204, to be honest there is feck all in the differance although my cz has a 22" barrel and you supposedly need a 26" to get the best out of the .204 but then i've read arguments against that aswell, i love the .204, very easy and flat shooting but ammo can be a problem, i was using 40gr remington but ran out of them and couldn't find anymore and then went back to 39gr federals but ran out of them last week so need to stock up, haven't rang around yet but hopefully i'll pick more up, i have a swarovski z3 4-12x50 BT scope on mine and have shot rabbits well out past 300m with it, i always had more powerful scopes and was worried about magnification with it but never found it lacking and its nice and light and superb in lowlight, don't think i've hit the 400m mark yet but thats my fault and not the equipment, i love my .204 but want to get a deer calibre but hopefully i'll save enough to hold onto my 204 instead of trading it

deerhunter1

German pointer wrote: »

Same old story done to death I know.

I go to bed at night wanting a .204 and wake up in the morning wanting a .233 and the next night it is the opposite. I would be looking for it for rabbits and corvids out to 300 or 400 yards, with the odd fox in closer. Ammo price not a huge concern as while I know that I will be trigger happy for the first few months I will settle down into it as a hunting rifle.

What would your choices be and why?

Also what sort of scope do ye think would be best for your choice?

I have a .270 and a .22lr I am looking for something to fill the gap in the middle.

.223 ammo cheap/plentiful very accurate,much easier to offload if needed

FISMA

GP,
Tough call. The 204 will have the edge on longer ranges, but the 223 will have the more massive bullets.

I would suggest the 223, but it sounds as if you should go with a 204.

As for scopes, I would go Swaro, otherwise NightForce.

ormondprop

deerhunter1 wrote: »

.223 ammo cheap/plentiful very accurate,much easier to offload if needed

Thats true alright, a few small dealers i went to wouldn't take the .204 off me as a trade as they said its too rare a calibre to try sell and most off them didn't have .204 ammo either, but had no problem with the bigger dealers but couldn't find a nice deer calibre that caught my eye,

I don't think theres enough of a difference between both calibers to decide which is best, both have their pro's and con's compared to the other and both do the same job, .204 is flatter and good in the wind but if you're shooting long distances you're going to have to dial in or hold over with both so it doesn't make much difference and both are point and shoot calibers out to 200m on a fox when zeroed @ 100,

Just visit a few dealers and look at both calibers and pick the rifle that you like most as you won't be disappointed with either

German pointer

Thanks to all who answered so far, keep your comments coming.

When I said which scope I meant power wise. I have already near 2500 euro spent on scopes since Christmas and can't justify any more to herself at the moment.

ormondprop

If your on a budget i had a hawke sidewinder on my .223 for a while, 6-24x56 with half mildot reticle, it was a good scope and only cost around the 350 mark at the time, was heavy though so depends whether you want a light weight hunting rifle or a heavy long range varmint rig, whats your budget for a scope? And what magnification do you usually use? And what functions do you use in a scope? Do you dial in or hold over? Use illumination? What reticles do you like and do you like a scope with adjustable parralax?

I found the hawke heavy as i had it on a heavy barrel sako so when i changed guns i decided to cut a lot of weight to make free hand shooting easier, i picked my swarovski z3 up very cheap and love it especially the ballistic turret, its like dialling in for dummies

German pointer

ormondprop wrote: »

If your on a budget i had a hawke sidewinder on my .223 for a while, 6-24x56 with half mildot reticle, it was a good scope and only cost around the 350 mark at the time, was heavy though so depends whether you want a light weight hunting rifle or a heavy long range varmint rig, whats your budget for a scope? And what magnification do you usually use? And what functions do you use in a scope? Do you dial in or hold over? Use illumination? What reticles do you like and do you like a scope with adjustable parralax?

I found the hawke heavy as i had it on a heavy barrel sako so when i changed guns i decided to cut a lot of weight to make free hand shooting easier, i picked my swarovski z3 up very cheap and love it especially the ballistic turret, its like dialling in for dummies

I have a Steiner Tactical military 3-12X56 ffp on top of the .270. This new and do not know it yet and I intend to dial in with it. Was think of using this one on it.
I also have a Steiner predator Xtream 4-16X50 sfp on the .22 Lr was thinking of using this one too. But I also have a swift premier 8-32x50 which I like on the range but I don't like it on the .22Lr. I will just have to try them all and see which suits better

bravestar

German pointer wrote: »

I have a Steiner Tactical military 3-12X56 ffp on top of the .270. This new and do not know it yet and I intend to dial in with it. Was think of using this one on it.
I also have a Steiner predator Xtream 4-16X50 sfp on the .22 Lr was thinking of using this one too. But I also have a swift premier 8-32x50 which I like on the range but I don't like it on the .22Lr. I will just have to try them all and see which suits better

I use a 4-14x44 FFP mil/mil falcon menace with a mil hash reticle. It's on my .223 and its easily enough magnification to shoot out to 600m with. I only need 1.6 mils to get out to 300m from a 100m zero. I don't bother dialing it since the reticle had half mil hash marks and its easy to hold with.

ormondprop

Out of them three i'd prob go with the 4-16, would suit perfect for lamping and long range corvids and bunnies

German pointer

ormondprop wrote: »

Out of them three i'd prob go with the 4-16, would suit perfect for lamping and long range corvids and bunnies

I have used this lamping the bunnies and it is some piece of kit for them but maybe a bit too much scope for a .22Lr

vapour_trail

Ive been thinking the same thing German Pointer. Changing my mind every 5 minutes I think it makes more sense to go for the .223 for many reasons and the main ones being - ammo availability and price, information availability !! It might not shoot as flat as a .204 but its going to leave a fox just as dead. If you get a rifle with the proper rate of twist then you can shoot almost any ammo available here. You can buy a couple of boxes of cheap ammo and do some long range plinking... cant do that with the .204 and lets face it, when you get a new gun all you want to do is shoot it until the novelty wears off. That would be mighty expensive for a .204 :eek: at roughly 149.95 for 100 rounds !! The .223 has rounds available here for as little as €9 for a box of 20. Fair enough they mightnt be high end ammo but they do the job when you want to let off a few rounds at the weekend. Was out lamping with my friend the other night and he recently got some of these Fiocchi v max for €39 a box of 50. Couldnt believe what they did to a fox that was sitting just past 200 yards. Ill definitely be going for a .223 :cool:

LIFFY FISHING

@ Vaportrail , What rifle was he using the Fiochhi ammo with ?

German pointer

vapour_trail wrote: »

Ive been thinking the same thing German Pointer. Changing my mind every 5 minutes I think it makes more sense to go for the .223 for many reasons and the main ones being - ammo availability and price, information availability !! It might not shoot as flat as a .204 but its going to leave a fox just as dead. If you get a rifle with the proper rate of twist then you can shoot almost any ammo available here. You can buy a couple of boxes of cheap ammo and do some long range plinking... cant do that with the .204 and lets face it, when you get a new gun all you want to do is shoot it until the novelty wears off. That would be mighty expensive for a .204 :eek: at roughly 149.95 for 100 rounds !! The .223 has rounds available here for as little as €9 for a box of 20. Fair enough they mightnt be high end ammo but they do the job when you want to let off a few rounds at the weekend. Was out lamping with my friend the other night and he recently got some of these Fiocchi v max for €39 a box of 50. Couldnt believe what they did to a fox that was sitting just past 200 yards. Ill definitely be going for a .223 :cool:

It is something to look at the ammo prices. I have seen the Fiocchi for €30 a box of 50. That would be 3 times the plinking fun then the 204. but then if the right 204 came up at the right money it would still be an option

German pointer

bravestar wrote: »

I use a 4-14x44 FFP mil/mil falcon menace with a mil hash reticle. It's on my .223 and its easily enough magnification to shoot out to 600m with. I only need 1.6 mils to get out to 300m from a 100m zero. I don't bother dialing it since the reticle had half mil hash marks and its easy to hold with.

would you have any problem with the reticles covering the target out further? with the Menace

4200fps

If you want a rifle to meet half way to do deer and foxs i'd let it be the 243 or 25-06. The .204 be a great round along with the 223 but they wont do the deer. The 204 does alot of damage so the 243 & 25-06 be on same boat. A bunny is rather tiny at 400yards especially under 12 power so the least magnifcation i'd go for would be 16power. I use 24 power scope and the least power i'd have it at doing a 400 yard shot would be 20power. You will hit a target with lower power of coarse but I think the more mag you have the more comfort you will have. Any of thes calibers is going to make bits of a bunny but its all down to what you want to do. The 204 would be the best at avoiding wind drift. Dont forget a 10mph breeze will shift a round from a 243 of by 10 inches at 400 yards or there abouts where as the 204 be about half that at same range. Theres alot to look into. If you buy a good European rifle and optics in any of these calibers you won't go wrong in my opinion

German pointer

I don't need it to do deer I have a .270 for that and I have a .22 for short distances it is something to fill the gap in the middle that I am looking for

Lotharmike

I traded a 223 Sako 75 for my 204 & never looked back,204 imo is far superior round,as availability of ammo goes never had a problem with any caliber I own,It is an extremely accurate & hard hitting round excellent in wind etc.The remarks on cheap ammo,in my experience with American Eagle you are better off using harsh language at the target then run that muck through your barrel.My advise buy the 204 & enjoy it.As for the glass Swarovski Z55-25x50/z6I or Nightforce

German pointer

.As for the glass Swarovski Z55-25x50/z6I or Nightforce[/QUOTE]


If one only had the money for such optics

Cass

ormondprop wrote: »

........... a few small dealers i went to wouldn't take the .204 off me as a trade ...........

Have seen and heard of this too.

Not sure how common it is around the country, but seems to be a growing trend.

ormondprop

Cass wrote: »

Have seen and heard of this too.

Not sure how common it is around the country, but seems to be a growing trend.

It seems Some dealers just stick with common calibers and don't seem to stock ammo or guns in the newer or rarer calibers and don't want to know about them either,

Of The two dealers in my town one is mainly into his shotguns and the other is more interested in over charging for fishing gear and clothing than having a good selection of ammo or guns, another hardware shop here sells ammo too so i'm never stuck but i'm still only 30 mins from stakelums who have a good selection, luckily enough, other guys might not be so lucky so a .223 could be a better bet

Cass

I understand dealers need to consider their options when taking trade ins. The bottom line is their concern and not the customer's happiness.

However it amazes me at the amount of dealers that point blank refuse to even try and deal. Even if it were a bad deal, and you walked away at least you'd have gotten a choice.

I've seen lads in shops saying "suppose i'll go for it so". To me that's settling. I've said it hundreds of times before. If you're not happy then walk. Even if it means loosing the gun you want.

I know you shouldn't buy with resale in mind, but it's always in our thoughts. However it'd be the last thing i'd let influence a buy. So if it were a .204, and i could source ammo i'd go for it. If you want an easy life go for the .223.

Anything else is really a settling caiber (rimfires) or unneeded due to having a .270 already (any other large centrefire).

vapour_trail

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

@ Vaportrail , What rifle was he using the Fiochhi ammo with ?

A Cz 527 . lovely gun

patsat

Before I give my 2 cents I should state that I have a .223 and I am loving it! It's a vssf II action/barrel and has a Nightforce 8-32x56 on top. I'm using 53 grain Hornady and my furthest kill to date has been a 400 yard fox the other evening. I have shot steel out to 450 yards with it so far.

The .204 seems to be a better round so I'd say go for that, I wouldn't worry about the price of ammo as for the ranges you wish to shoot your not gonna be using the cheap ammo! The price difference between premium ammo for the .223 and .204 isn't that much.

German pointer

After much debate with myself I have decided to go with a .223 the reason is a better selection of firearms and ammo and cheaper to run. They will both kill at the distances I want and I will be able to do a bit of target shooting as well without breaking the bank.

Now which rifle should I choose.

Cass

German pointer wrote: »

Now which rifle should I choose.

How long is a piece of string.


all depends on your choice/preferences in;

• Make
• Model
• Stock
• Barrel
• Budget

Anything take your fancy or are you looking for reviews on models owned?

German pointer

Cass wrote: »

How long is a piece of string.




all depends on your choice/preferences in;

• Make
• Model
• Stock
• Barrel
• Budget

Anything take your fancy or are you looking for reviews on models owned?

I was going to start a new thread for this but I'm sure this one will do.


Your first four questions answer is I don't know.

Fifth question about a grand, maybe a little more for the right one, but I don't want to spend a heap of money on it afterwards to get it right by putting in new triggers etc.

I am looking for opinions from owners of pros and cons of rifles they have.
I was thinking of at least a varmint/heavy barrel as I don't want to be spending half a day waiting for it to cool after a few shots. Probably prefer a thumbhole stock and a twist rate that will allow me to get use from a good range of rounds.

Not asking for much am I :D

Cass

German pointer wrote: »

Not asking for much am I :D

Not at all.


Doe the budget include scope as this will determine new or second hand. Also thumbhole in .223s are, well i won't say rare, but not common, and those that have them usually are a little more expensive. For example the Savage BCTSS, the Remmy thumbhole, and the howa Supreme are all over €1,200 - €1,600 new.

The first choice people will most likely recommend are the Tikka. They are undoubtedly a terrific rifle. The stock for me is a let down to the extent is bothers me in terms of feel, comfort and weight. However they are accurate, take most any ammo, and come in heavy barrel variant. Second hand around the €650 - €800 mark depending on condition, etc. New around €1,100.

The next one i think of is the CZ527. Another popular rifle and comes in 5 or 6 variations. From the standard at €750 with timber stock, and light barrel to the kevlar with heavy barrel, composite stock, etc. Then laminate version is a nice rifle and slightly cheaper than the Kevlar. The rifle is accurate preferring lighter rounds from 40gr to 55 gr even though the Kevlar has a 1:9 twist where the other models have 1:12. Also thet can take up to 200 rounds to fully "bed in". You'll find from new the more you fire the more accurate it gets with the same ammo.

The next one is the Howa. The one i like is the Thumbhole Varmint Supreme. It's a heavy barrel, laminate thumbhole stock. Built in cheek riser, and a nice gun. however it is heavy coming in at around the 10lb+ mark. Without scope, etc.

Other makes such as the Remmy come in numerous variations, but only one i've fond has the thumbhole as standard. Every other thumbhole was bought after market. The rifle was the Remmy 700 VLSS. Nice rifle, heavy barrel with thumbbhole stock. The barrel though is 26", and the rifle as a whole is heavy. Free hand you know you're holding it. Also one of the more expensive rifles new so secondhand it could cost more than other brands new.


The last one i've seen, but not shot was a Savage 12 BCTSS. Almost identical to the Remmy. Has a 26" barrel, thimbhole stock, heavy barrel and a heavy rifle in general at 10lb. I asked about buying one of these 18 months ago and was quoted €1,600 all in. However i'm a huge fan of Savage and was considering it. Did not in the end.


Other brands i know of are;

• Marlin
• Sako
• Sabatti
• Steyr

German pointer

The price does not include the scope as I will use one of the scopes I have at the moment I have more scopes than rifles.

Thanks for the above something to digest for a while

German pointer

What twist rate in .223 will give the best range of bullet weights?

zeissman

German pointer wrote: »

What twist rate in .223 will give the best range of bullet weights?

My mate recently bought a tikka t3 lite with a 1/12 twist.
He went for the 1/12 because he will only be using 40 to 50 grain bullets for shooting vermin around the farm.
You have a choice of 1/12 or 1/8 twist with the tikka.
I think the cz are 1/9 twist.
Most remingtons are 1/12 but I think they also have a few models in 1/9.
I know a couple of lads with howa 223s and they shoot great but I think they only come in 1/12 twist.
If you only want to shoot vermin twist is not that important but if you want to shoot targets etc at longer ranges you would be better with a 1/8 or 1/9 twist as this will allow you to use bullets up to 75 grain.

Cass

zeissman wrote: »

I think the cz are 1/9 twist.
.

Most CZs come in 1:12. A 1:9 can be ordered, but in the Kevlar it is standard or, afaik, only comes in 1:9.

However mine would should the lighter (40-53) as well if not better than the heavier rounds.

German pointer

After reading the posts here and researching on the American sites it is looking like the 1.9 twist would be the best twist to fire the greatest range of bullet weights. Am I right in this?

Would a 1.8 twist destroy the lighter cheaper rounds if using them for short range target shooting

swift220

German pointer wrote: »

After reading the posts here and researching on the American sites it is looking like the 1.9 twist would be the best twist to fire the greatest range of bullet weights. Am I right in this?

Would a 1.8 twist destroy the lighter cheaper rounds if using them for short range target shooting

No 1:8 twist will not destroy lighter bullets it will shoot anything from 40gr to 80gr with no problems,

I have a cz 527 kevlar with 1;9 twist thats shoots everything from 40gr to 75gr bthp bullets, but doesnt like the 75gr amax as it is a longer bullet than the 75gr bthp,

1;8 or 1;9 is the way to go it will let you shoot almost any bullet you can find in terms of weight

1;12 twist will limit you to around 60gr

bravestar

swift220 wrote: »

No 1:8 twist will not destroy lighter bullets it will shoot anything from 40gr to 80gr with no problems,

I have a cz 527 kevlar with 1;9 twist thats shoots everything from 40gr to 75gr bthp bullets, but doesnt like the 75gr amax as it is a longer bullet than the 75gr bthp,

1;8 or 1;9 is the way to go it will let you shoot almost any bullet you can find in terms of weight

1;12 twist will limit you to around 60gr

+1 on the above. BUT I have a 1/9 twist, measured its actually 1/9.5. 75 gr BTHP don't seem to keep stable past 300, they are marginally stable at best. If I could, I would have a 1/8 just to be on the safe side.

German pointer

Went looking for a .223 today. In general , Why is it that dealers selling firearms don't know the ins and outs of what they are selling. They only appear to know what they will sell them for as in price. I was in 3 different dealers today in 1 the main man was out fair enough but the other 2 could not tell me the twist rates of the rifles they were selling only the calibers and 1 of them is claiming to be the importer. Surely I am not the first to ask what the twist rate of the rifles are.

Cass

I see a few problems with dealers.

First one is a lot of dealers are a long time in the business. They are "stuck" in their ways and most new lads coming into the sport have access to the web and generally know more than either the dealer or lads from 10+ years ago.

Secondly i've seen lads working in gun shops that do not know about guns, but were put there because they worked in another section of the company or because they are a friend of the dealer. One guy i know admitted he knew nothing about them, but was put in because things were busy and is still there today, and another only knows about fishing and runs the shop in the evenings while the dealer is out and about.

The third thing i guess at is the amount of firearms. I have a decent grip on firearms, and the basics. I do not know all the calibers, let alone makes, models. Not to mention the accessories, ballistics, ammo and everything else associated to them. Nobody could.


The last thing could simply be lack of interest. I've met one or two dealers in my time that seem to have lost interest in their trade, and each day is a pain. However the gun trade is worse than marriage. It's for life. To try and wrap up and leave it would go on forever, and with all the laws both old and new it's a hard trade to be in.


Just my 2 cents worth. However after saying all that there are some things that should be known. Twist rate of the popular makes, prices, etc.

German pointer

I know what you are saying. Most of my knowledge is got from a few hours skimming the web and I only want to buy 1. Imagine the knowledge I could accumulate if I was trying to sell a load of them.

I saw a lovely ruger m77 in .223 in O Hollarans in Dargan today. Anyone know what the twist rate is I am having problems accessing the ruger site.

Are all ruger .223 1 in 9?

swift220

German pointer wrote: »

I know what you are saying. Most of my knowledge is got from a few hours skimming the web and I only want to buy 1. Imagine the knowledge I could accumulate if I was trying to sell a load of them.

I saw a lovely ruger m77 in .223 in O Hollarans in Dargan today. Anyone know what the twist rate is I am having problems accessing the ruger site.

Are all ruger .223 1 in 9?

it could be 1:12 or 1:9 as far as i know, depending on which model it is

zeissman

German pointer wrote: »

I know what you are saying. Most of my knowledge is got from a few hours skimming the web and I only want to buy 1. Imagine the knowledge I could accumulate if I was trying to sell a load of them.

I saw a lovely ruger m77 in .223 in O Hollarans in Dargan today. Anyone know what the twist rate is I am having problems accessing the ruger site.

Are all ruger .223 1 in 9?

I had a look at the ruger website and all the m77 hawkeye rifles in 223 seem to be 1/9 twist . The m77 mk2 target rifle is also 1/9 . Im not sure what twist the older m77 model rifles are.
Was it the heavy barrel model you were looking at ?
The ruger website is www.ruger.com

German pointer

It was I think. I saw so many that day. I got a look at the ruger site. I am on the west coast at the moment and my signal on the phone is patchy at best. All the newer models seem to be 1.9 and looking at the yank forums the older ones seem to be 1.12 did they change?

zeissman

German pointer wrote: »

It was I think. I saw so many that day. I got a look at the ruger site. I am on the west coast at the moment and my signal on the phone is patchy at best. All the newer models seem to be 1.9 and looking at the yank forums the older ones seem to be 1.12 did they change?

Im not sure. They did change the model m77mk 2 rifles and brought out the hawkeye model so maybe they changed then. The heavy barreled rifles are still the m77 mk 2 models but they are listed as a 1/9 twist.
I had a ruger varmint in 220 swift and 204 and they were really accurate.
I know 4 other guys who also have them and they all shoot great.

German pointer

I got the serial number and sent it off to ruger to see if they can tell me the twist rate

German pointer

Ruger got back to me it is a 1.12 twist the search continues.

German pointer

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Here's the update.

I did a deal on a Tikka Tac in .223 today so should get the paperwork in this week

FISMA

German pointer wrote: »

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Here's the update.

I did a deal on a Tikka Tac in .223 today so should get the paperwork in this week

Excellent choice!

... and now for the glass?

feartuath

I have the same situation myself the barrel in my swift is shout out .
I have a sako .22 and Heym .270 so i need a new rifle.
What twist is on the tikka
Is there good value buying new out there
Is there any nearly new stuff out there
I prefer European makes .
Saying that I've shot 3 foxes lately with the .270 which is considered a varmint round in the USA.

German pointer

FISMA wrote: »

Excellent choice!

... and now for the glass?

Thanks

At the moment I have a Steiner military 3-12*56 on the .270 a Steiner 4-16*50 xtream preadtor for the .17 hmr if the subtution ever gets here and a Burris Six X series 2-12*50 sitting in the safe so I might do a little bit of playing around when I get the license

German pointer

feartuath wrote: »

I have the same situation myself the barrel in my swift is shout out .
I have a sako .22 and Heym .270 so i need a new rifle.
What twist is on the tikka
Is there good value buying new out there
Is there any nearly new stuff out there
I prefer European makes .
Saying that I've shot 3 foxes lately with the .270 which is considered a varmint round in the USA.

It's a 1-8 twist its the one in the for sale section here

4200fps

Clear glass and reasonable magnification you need if you want to shoot in ''comfort'' out to 400 yards. If you want good glass let it be swarovski,zeiss,smith and bender or kahles...European optics are the best out there imo. German or Austrians be the masters. I use 6-24 power magnification and its comfortable. All down to your budget

German pointer

This is the scope I am thinking of using it is on the .270 at the moment and I will probably put it on the .223 off deer season. I hit a deer at 453 yards with this and a clay at 525 yards and never felt under powered I have it just under a year now and its a keeper. sighting in crows etc. at over 1000 yards is no problem to it either. I know the review time says almost an hour but it is just under a half hour. He compares it to some of the top end American and European glass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yzx3DscRvwo