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Abortion Discussion

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    #6842
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Plus she doesn't say anything at all about the rape question. Pro-lifers have historically dismissed opinion poll findings that a majority favours abortion in certain circumstances by claiming that what they favour is not really abortion but that won't wash in the case of rape/incest...

    the question is a muddle of the two issues in one question with the latter part existing only in fiction hence the uncertainty.


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    #6843
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Festus wrote: »
    Do you know any doctor who can predict when a child with a birth defect or malformation will die and can say with certainty that the child will die before birth?

    So, this is just a quibble over semantics?

    Look up anencephaly when you're certain there's nothing left in your stomach.


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    #6844
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Festus wrote: »
    yes. I believe call themselves "pro-choice"

    Is that a joke?

    You were saying that no doctor can predict whether or when a fetus with a fatal abnormality will die in the womb, but they can predict that it will die when it has no life support system.

    Whether it would last a day or a month or a year with that terminal condition, do you not think it's quality of life (or lack of it) combined with the parent's quality of life has to be a judgement call for the parents and not the state?


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    #6845
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    Well it's great to establish the level of discussion at an early stage.

    did you choose to be born?

    I guess not so how would you feel if the people who made the choice for you chose differently?


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    #6846
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Festus wrote: »
    did you choose to be born?

    I guess not so how would you feel if the people who made the choice for you chose differently?

    Another riddle. This is fascinating stuff, really.

    You wouldn't feel anything, would you? You'd be dead and not know anything about it.


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    #6847
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,259 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    what-does-it-mean.png
    Festus wrote: »
    the question is a muddle of the two issues in one question with the latter part existing only in fiction hence the uncertainty.


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    #6848
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,753 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    did you choose to be born?

    I guess not so how would you feel if the people who made the choice for you chose differently?

    How would you feel if your parents used a condom?
    How would you feel if your parents just snuggled that night?

    :rolleyes:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #6849
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    So, this is just a quibble over semantics?

    Look up anencephaly when you're certain there's nothing left in your stomach.


    I known what it is.

    read this

    http://www.lifenews.com/2014/10/09/couple-welcomes-anencephalic-baby-they-created-bucket-list-for-then-say-goodbye/


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    #6850
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Festus wrote: »
    I guess not so how would you feel if the people who made the choice for you chose differently?

    I'd completely understand someone in the situation my mother was in when I was born in the mid-80s (21, working part-time, unmarried, living with parents) making a different choice to what she did tbh.


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    #6851
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I didn't choose to be born, but at least my mother wasn't forced to give birth to me.


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    #6852
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mod:
    Festus wrote: »
    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    Great question. Do you know anyone who would choose to be born without a brain?
    yes. I believe call themselves "pro-choice"
    No need for that kind of comment.


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    #6853
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Approx 250 million sperm released during sex, its pure chance any of us are here. I our parents had sex an hour earlier, in a different position would any of us had been born. Such a bizarre question....


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    #6854
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Festus wrote: »
    I known what it is.

    read this

    Read it. That's what having an anencephalic baby meant to those parents. Great. That was their choice. Do you think all parents in a similar position should do this? What about the ones whose grief would be such that they couldn't bear to see their baby born with such a disability?

    Would you prefer that they were forced to give birth and watch their child die within four hours, or would you prefer that they were able to have a choice about that?


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    #6855
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Shrap wrote: »
    Read it. That's what having an anencephalic baby meant to those parents. Great. That was their choice. Do you think all parents in a similar position should do this? What about the ones whose grief would be such that they couldn't bear to see their baby born with such a disability?

    Would you prefer that they were forced to give birth and watch their child die within four hours, or would you prefer that they were able to have a choice about that?


    what right do we have to choose who should live and who should die ?


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    #6856
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    It seems preferable than turning maternity wards into less-rapey Fritzlkellers.


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    #6857
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Festus wrote: »
    what right do we have to choose who should live and who should die ?

    Why not? We do it all the time to people on life support, we don't keep brain dead people alive, why is that okay then?


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    #6858
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    It seems preferable than turning maternity wards into less-rapey Fritzlkellers.

    I take it you mean that it is acceptable to kill some people, especially children.


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    #6859
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,753 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    I known what it is.

    read this

    http://www.lifenews.com/2014/10/09/couple-welcomes-anencephalic-baby-they-created-bucket-list-for-then-say-goodbye/

    The child died shortly after birth. It just re-affirms the suggestion that it is pretty much certain that a child born with that condition won't last long outside the womb.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #6860
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    I don't think I can take another round of this.


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    #6861
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    Festus wrote: »
    what right do we have to choose who should live and who should die ?

    In the case of anencephaly, nature has pretty much made that decision. Very straightforward.

    Also in the straightforward category: No one should ever be forced to give birth, no matter what the circumstances.


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    #6862
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    A "person" without anything resembling a functioning brain? Yes, and quite frankly I hope you don't have any daughters.


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    #6863
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    iwantmydinner wrote: »
    In the case of anencephaly, nature has pretty much made that decision. Very straightforward.

    Don't you mean God? ;)


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    #6864
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Why not? We do it all the time to people on life support, we don't keep brain dead people alive, why is that okay then?

    actually, we do frequently keep people diagnosed with brain death alive.

    and in some cases the diagnosis was wrong.


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    #6865
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    SW wrote: »
    The child died shortly after birth. It just re-affirms the suggestion that it is pretty much certain that a child born with that condition won't last long outside the womb.

    what merit is there to killing the child before it is born?


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    #6866
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Festus wrote: »
    what right do we have to choose who should live and who should die ?

    That didn't answer my question. The baby is going to die anyway, so would you prefer that the parents had a choice when, or prefer that they had potential months of emotional and physical agony (both pre-birth, during the birth process, and watching their child die) in order that they couldn't take that decision?

    As for your question - first world luxury that it is - have you ever asked a soldier the same question? Answers like "duty to country" and "if it's not their life, it's mine" come up. People ask questions of themselves as to whether they have the right, and as it turns out, the vast majority of European society agrees that a woman has the right to decide to abort a fetus before a given point if she feels her life would be disastrously impacted by continuing a pregnancy.

    And? Does belief in God come into this for you?


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    #6867
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    Festus wrote: »
    what merit is there to killing the child before it is born?

    Isn't it up to the pregnant woman, her partner if present, and her medical team to decide on the merits of continuing an anencephalic pregnancy?


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    #6868
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,888 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    In "some cases", yes. But how much of a proportion of brain deaths do they make up? 1%? 2%? 5%? If recovery was any less than 40% likely, I'd want someone to pull the plug on me within a few weeks at the most.


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    #6869
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Festus wrote: »
    actually, we do frequently keep people diagnosed with brain death alive.

    and in some cases the diagnosis was wrong.

    But as a family you are gently encouraged to do so, there is no logical reason for keeping someone artificially alive if they haven't the brain function to survive on their own. Would you consider that to be killing the person? You can't kill someone who is already dead. A baby with a fatal condition is no different.


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    #6870
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Festus wrote: »
    what merit is there to killing the child before it is born?

    Eh the dignity and metal health of the mother and father?


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    #6871
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,753 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    what merit is there to killing the child before it is born?
    not forcing a woman to carry a brainless body to term, just to watch it die.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



This discussion has been closed.
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