Abortion Discussion

Absolam

volchitsa wrote: »

But they did follow the law as it was at the time.

Nobody is saying they didn't, only that the law as it was at the time is exactly the same as it is now.

volchitsa wrote: »

Did you miss the quoted correspondence among officials on the days before the premature delivery of the baby? The official said that she had been denied an abortion.

I actually haven't seen the correspondence, have you? I've seen the excerpt printed by the Indo, which says that 'an official' wrote a briefing note saying '"a case had been initiated regarding the refusal of a hospital in ... to provide an abortion...". I've also seen the Times specified that this portion of the briefing was a recounting of an oral statement by someone else. Whilst those ellipses leave the quote fairly open to interpretation, I'm not sure 'the HSE gave a c-section to Miss Y as a solution to the hospital refusing to provide her an abortion' is readily identifiable as a possibility. I'm also reasonably confident it cannot be construed as 'the law here has been drafted specifically to deny abortions, even if it will save the life of the mother'. Unless, as I said, you're claiming that the purpose of the act of providing a c-section is to specifically deny abortions, which is what I said BS was implying.

volchitsa wrote: »

At the time, that meant that she was not given the treatment covered by the POLDP Act, that was an explicit mention on the rules at that point.

How do you figure that? The Act doesn't specify any treatment at all; it refers to medical procedures only. There is no requirement in law to use one treatment or another, except that the treatment satisfy the conditions of the Act.

volchitsa wrote: »

So even then she was suicidal, the POLDP Act was not triggered. Well, it was partially triggered, she was by psychiatrists and certified suicidal, but then it was blocked by administrators who refused an abortion, apparently because in their minds the UK law on time limits for abortion has some value in Ireland. I don't think that is the case, do you?

Well, i don't think what you're saying is the case, to be honest.
How was the Act 'not triggered'? In accordance with the Act, on referral from a GP, a panel of doctors was convened (as the Act requires). The psychiatrists on the panel determined that Miss Ys' life was under threat due to suicide, and terminating her pregnancy was an appropriate treatment. Which is permitted under the Act. The obstetrician on the panel decided, with due regard to the need to preserve unborn human life as far as practicable (as required by the Act), that the most suitable method of termination was a c-section (which is a medical procedure, and the Act specifies that medical procedures may be carried out in these circumstances).
So, which administrators caused a 'partial triggering' and blocking of the Act by refusing an abortion, and where did they refer to UK limits on abortion?

volchitsa wrote: »

So the solution to their partial triggering of the Act but unwillingness to act on it, was to wing it. The invented a new sub clause, which was nowhere to be seen , which said that if the UK date limits were passed, a premature delivery could be done instead.

Again, I'm interested in seeing where these administrators have said they invented a sub clause, as well as where they referred to UK date limits. Also, who winged it, the administrators, or the doctors? As far as I can see, everything the doctors did complied entirely with the Act (which is just as well, as they were obliged to comply with it).

volchitsa wrote: »

But that isn't explicitly stated in the law. So either the HSE personnel are making it up as they go along, or the law is not intended to do what it says, provide an abortion for a suicidal woman. Because the termination of pregnancy that she got was NOT performed under the terms of the POLDP Act.

Ah, I think I see where you're getting confused. The law isn't intended (solely) to provide an abortion for a suicidal woman. It is intended to do what it says; to Protect Life during Pregnancy. And that means that sometimes it may be necessary to abort a life in order to protect another, but it doesn't mean that it is required that a life be aborted.
Because that (and we return to my original point here, which going in circles I'm sure will annoy obplayer) would lead to the ridiculous prospect of doctors being forced to butcher an eight and a half month foetus.

Morag

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Anyone get the particular point of the knickers, other than to embarrass Enda (not that that's an ignoble objective)...

The 8th amendment is part of Irelands dirty laundry, I bet women being recruited by the multinationals don't get told that abortion is so restricted, before they move here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEkD_cWgxaE

In the movie the Quiet man, the female lead protests by handing out a washing line of underwear.

The knickers for choice is being promoted by an action group in the UK called IMELDA, as Imelda was the name used as a code would for abortion before we had the internet and women were making phone calls to the uk to arrange to travel.

Ireland Making England Legal Desination for Abortion.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/10/06/termination-transformation/

Greystones GP Dr Ciara Kelly and member of RTÉ’s Operation Transformation, writing in today’s Irish Independent outlines how her views on abortion have changed.

Like most people my age in Ireland, I was brought up in a pro-life household. My 12-year-old self accepted without question the explanation, that abortion was bad and I saw the tiny brass feet worn on jacket lapels in 1983 as cute rather than macabre.

Despite being otherwise liberal, I was slightly appalled when someone suggested to me that their solution to a theoretical, unplanned pregnancy was a flight to the UK. “Never,” I thought. My self-righteous teenage self believed that having a baby in every circumstance was the right thing to do.

I entered my 30s. I was now a GP and a parent. I’d four healthy children born into a loving home. I was lucky. But I saw many pregnant women who weren’t. Women on their own, unable to cope. Women who were sexually assaulted. Women with cancer. Women with foetal abnormalities. I saw the harsh reality that in a crisis pregnancy, there’s an incredibly private, personal and difficult choice to be made. I became, over those 20 years, pro-choice.

Because we don’t have ‘no abortion’ in Ireland, we merely import the service, by exporting our patients. This is a continuum of the treatment of women that saw mother and baby homes, forced adoptions, a ban on contraception and still, to this day, the mighty legal framework of the constitution imposed on what should be a deeply private and personal decision.

We wouldn’t force someone to donate an organ against their wishes, to save someone’s life – even if they were the only one who could save them. Because we respect a donor’s autonomy and right to choose. But that’s what we force on women: The legal right to life of one, at the expense of another’s body.

You will never convince me that an embryonic being is equal to a sentient grown woman. It’s like comparing an acorn to an oak tree. And I fail to understand why we’ve been so fixated on this single issue – but part of me feels it’s punitive. Feels it’s about punishing those ‘easy’ women, the way we’ve always done in this country. Heaping shame, misery and a good dose of guilt onto them Irish style. The way we’ve always done.

I’ve never been in the position where I needed to consider an abortion – lucky me. But not every woman is as lucky. And unless you walk in those shoes you shouldn’t get to decide about her body and her life. These women are not vessels to be forced into pregnancies against their wishes. They’re independent adult women who will likely agonise more about their decision than all those who lecture them.

It is for these reasons that I must add my voice to the increasing clamour to repeal the eighth amendment. A foetus is not equal to a grown woman and only a strange mind-set would think it was. The same mind-set that ironically would ban contraception but punish girls for unplanned pregnancies.

Cabaal

Morag wrote: »

The 8th amendment is part of Irelands dirty laundry

As we've seen from our past in this country the so called moral guardians of society are great at forcing women do just put up with that dirty laundry,

Skrynesaver

Dr Kelly's article is an interesting read for people of a certain age, I grew up in a rabidly Catholic household and held opinions that I can only describe as hateful, bronze feet, the lot... However I cured myself of religion subsequently and came to realise that abortion law was driven by a vision of women as livestock kept for breeding purposes rather than fully qualified people.

MrPudding

Can NI join the 21st century?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29538100

MrP

Cabaal

MrPudding wrote: »

Can NI join the 21st century?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29538100

MrP

Can Ireland?

Morag

MrPudding wrote: »

Can NI join the 21st century?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29538100

MrP

Given that the submission are strictly on Lethal or fatal foetal abnormalities and pregnancies caused by sexual crime and not on the grounds of health or choice I don't think it's far to say 21st Century at all.

http://www.dojni.gov.uk/consultation-on-abortion-2014

MrPudding

Morag wrote: »

Given that the submission are strictly on Lethal or fatal foetal abnormalities and pregnancies caused by sexual crime and not on the grounds of health or choice I don't think it's far to say 21st Century at all.

http://www.dojni.gov.uk/consultation-on-abortion-2014

Fair point, but it is progress, perhaps...?

MrP

Morag

It is good to see that there is a consultation process happening but, there is the worry that it will be hijacked, and that even if the law is changed for lethal/fatal foetal abnormalities that it will kick full abortion rights further down the road.

Women in the NI pay the same Taxes as those in the rest of the UK but have to pay to travel and then pay for abortion related health care which women who live in the rest of the UK get for free on the NHS.

I find the idea that a woman's human rights are qualified ones and other people can with hold them and health care to be abhorrent.

MrPudding

Morag wrote: »

It is good to see that there is a consultation process happening but, there is the worry that it will be hijacked, and that even if the law is changed for lethal/fatal foetal abnormalities that it will kick full abortion rights further down the road.

Women in the NI pay the same Taxes as those in the rest of the UK but have to pay to travel and then pay for abortion related health care which women who live in the rest of the UK get for free on the NHS.

I find the idea that a woman's human rights are qualified ones and other people can with hold them and health care to be abhorrent.

Agreed, unfortunately that is what we end up with when the political system is so deeply influenced by religion. It seems that discrimination is one of the few things that opposing religions seem capable of agreeing on. Sad really.

MrP

Lon Dubh

I don't know if this discussion is just about abortion in Ireland (I've only followed the thread on and off, so not read all of it) but I thought this was worth posting for pure craziness

Ebola Patients Should Be Killed Says Pro-Life Politician
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXlS4IvAcDo

Zubeneschamali

A story in today's papers that the Master of the Rotunda says an increasing number of women travelling to the UK with FFA are returning to have stillborn children delivered in Irish hospitals. Perhaps people in the UK system are starting to get tired of dealing with Irish problems?

The correspondence sets out the two-step procedure for terminations required by law in the UK once a pregnancy has passed the 22 week point. Part A involves the administration of an injection to stop the heart of the foetus.

The woman is then given drugs to induce the birth and asked to return to the hospital at an appointed time for Part B, the delivery of the baby. But Dr Coulter-Smith says they have noted that some women are returning to Ireland for Part B - that is before they give birth.

aloyisious

The question I'm posting below is likely to be upsetting to some people who may have suffered a loss. It involves fatal fetal abnormality and anencephally, so please ignore it by not going beyond this point, if you are likely to be upset.

Re the reported statement to the dept of health by the Master of the Rotunda, does anyone know yet whether this reported practice of pregnant women who have gone to the UK for an abortion on the grounds of their feotuses being fatal fetal-abnromality or anencephaliptic and returning here to deliver the body halfway through the abortion process is new, or is it a newly disclosed way of the woman delivering on national territory and avoiding the accusation (and maybe charge) of aborting while abroad (eg; an established practice)?

My opinion on women and on their rights to control their bodies and their health will not change in the least. They have the ultimate right to decide their own futures.

P_1

aloyisious wrote: »

The question I'm posting below is likely to be upsetting to some people who may have suffered a loss. It involves fatal fetal abnormality and anencephally, so please ignore it by not going beyond this point, if you are likely to be upset.

Re the reported statement to the dept of health by the Master of the Rotunda, does anyone know yet whether this reported practice of pregnant women who have gone to the UK for an abortion on the grounds of their feotuses being fatal fetal-abnromality or anencephaliptic and returning here to deliver the body halfway through the abortion process is new, or is it a newly disclosed way of the woman delivering on national territory and avoiding the accusation (and maybe charge) of aborting while abroad (eg; an established practice)?

My opinion on women and on their rights to control their bodies and their health will not change in the least. They have the ultimate right to decide their own futures.

Is that actually a crime on the books here? :eek:

Zubeneschamali

aloyisious wrote: »

does anyone know yet whether this reported practice ... is new

Clearly new and growing, per the Master's statement, but nothing to do with legality/illegality of abortion in Ireland. Irish women have a constitutional right to travel to the UK for an abortion.

Even for women in the UK, this is a two part procedure. Since the second part is not illegal in Ireland, women can return to Ireland for it. Is travelling between the first and second parts more dangerous than travelling after the whole procedure? I don't know.

MrPudding

Could this be a money thing? How long is there between the two part? It may simply be a case of people not being able to afford additional accommodation.

MrP

krankykitty

Maybe its a case that women want to be around their support system and near to home while they are delivering their much wanted baby.

aloyisious

P_1 wrote: »

Is that actually a crime on the books here? :eek:

Assuming (on my part) that you are referring to abortion here, outside the strictures of the act.. Protection_of_Life_During_Pregnancy_Act_2013
and the guidelines of the (Irish Medical Council) in regard to medically necessary abortions here, one might be liable to criminal or civil prosecution if one provided or assisted in an abortion here.

There is also this Irish Medical Council guide to it's members: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.medicalcouncil.ie%2FNews-and-Publications%2FPublications%2FInformation-for-Doctors%2FGuide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-for-Registered-Medical-Practitioners.pdf&ei=h6A3VMvqBvDd7QaJ14GACw&usg=AFQjCNHSHJ-HYvhtzST02tCPZ3VUAQ2Iww

The 3rd page (section on the opened link gives (9) refusal to treat, (10) conscientious objection with reference treating a patient.

Zubeneschamali

aloyisious wrote: »

Outside the strictures of the act
and the guidelines of the (Irish Medical Council) in regard to medically necessary abortions here, one might be liable to criminal or civil prosecution if one provided or assisted in an abortion here.

Here, yes, but the question was if there might be some charge associated with aborting abroad.

Definitely not. It is constitutionally impossible for legislation to be passed making it illegal to travel for an abortion, or to give people information on how and where to travel for an abortion.

aloyisious

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Clearly new and growing, per the Master's statement, but nothing to do with legality/illegality of abortion in Ireland. Irish women have a constitutional right to travel to the UK for an abortion.

Even for women in the UK, this is a two part procedure. Since the second part is not illegal in Ireland, women can return to Ireland for it. Is travelling between the first and second parts more dangerous than travelling after the whole procedure? I don't know.

I was wondering if, due to there being an uncompleted UK operation, that the abortion itself was incomplete, so no abortion was provided there. Splitting legal hairs, I know. I await the Iona or some other Pro-Life group's invited response from the media to the master's letter

In my unqualified opinion, the only way for any action to proceed (I imagine) would be for the DPP/who-ever to instruct for a PM on the feotus, before any decision would be made on further legal steps, and that act would be after some form of complaint to GS being referred to him.

Zubeneschamali

aloyisious wrote: »

Splitting legal hairs, I know. I await the Iona or some other Pro-Life group's invited response from the media to the master's letter

There is no legal issue at all: the women go into an Irish hospital to have a stillborn fetus delivered. End of story.

From Prime Time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXs9rK0QBeU

The Black Oil

So, her first complaint is media bias and that now ever present word, balance. It really seems like a political game to some of these people.

Morag

MrPudding wrote: »

Could this be a money thing? How long is there between the two part? It may simply be a case of people not being able to afford additional accommodation.

MrP

Part of it is a money thing, as the medical procedures and hospital stay here is free under the maternity care act and would have to be paid for in the UK

Morag

P_1 wrote: »

Is that actually a crime on the books here? :eek:

I know of someone who recently returned from having an abortion from the UK and threw away the medical cert she was given, who then needed medical care and was told by the dr she saw that if she could not prove she had the abortion in the UK, he would report her under the new law which carries a possible penalty of 14 years.

So yes until a woman can prove the ending of the life of the 'unborn' happened outside of the jurisdiction she may face prosecution here.

Drs are not compelled to report women who come to them or force them to prove were and when they had an abortion, this person was not a professional and turned out to be pro life.

Zubeneschamali

Morag wrote: »

I know of someone who recently returned from having an abortion from the UK and threw away the medical cert she was given, who then needed medical care and was told by the dr she saw that if she could not prove she had the abortion in the UK, he would report her under the new law which carries a possible penalty of 14 years.

I think the correct response here is "I double dog dare you". And if he refuses to treat her, it's lawyer time.

aloyisious

I can see Carolyn doesn't understand the meaning of the word "balance" and went into a deliberate plan to attack the tv programme itself, then attack the accuracy of the doctor and his medical experience. Then again it might be the lawyer speaking, not the person.

Draco

MrPudding wrote: »

Could this be a money thing? How long is there between the two part? It may simply be a case of people not being able to afford additional accommodation.

MrP

I suspect it's more to do with being able to have a proper burial afterwards. From reading about these cases before, it was always mentioned that there were huge legal difficulties around bringing the remains back to Ireland.

redfacedbear

Draco wrote: »

I suspect it's more to do with being able to have a proper burial afterwards. From reading about these cases before, it was always mentioned that there were huge legal difficulties around bringing the remains back to Ireland.

I don't think it's legal issues so much as being very impersonal and traumatic. The hospital in Britain doesn't cremate the remains immediately so the parents have to leave without them. They are usually delivered (by courier :eek:) a week or two later.

It sounds horrific and I can understand why somebody might opt to take the risk of travelling home to avoid that.