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Abortion Discussion

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    #6872
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Shrap wrote: »
    That didn't answer my question. The baby is going to die anyway, so would you prefer that the parents had a choice when, or prefer that they had potential months of emotional and physical agony (both pre-birth, during the birth process, and watching their child die) in order that they couldn't take that decision?

    I would prefer that all human life be treated with the respect and dignity it deserves.
    Shrap wrote: »
    As for your question - first world luxury that it is - have you ever asked a soldier the same question? Answers like "duty to country" and "if it's not their life, it's mine" come up. People ask questions of themselves as to whether they have the right, and as it turns out, the vast majority of European society agrees that a woman has the right to decide to abort a fetus before a given point if she feels her life would be disastrously impacted by continuing a pregnancy.

    Much of European society made laws to allow for the killing of certain human beings without reference to the people. That doesn't make those laws right.
    Shrap wrote: »
    And? Does belief in God come into this for you?

    I fail to see the relevance of that question unless you are planning an ad hominem attack.

    Human life is human life and every human life begins with a single cell at fertilization. From that point on any deliberate act to destroy that life is homocide.


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    #6873
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    SW wrote: »
    not forcing a woman to carry a brainless body to term, just to watch it die.

    I don't think emotional health factors into his argument. It's all about enforcement of rules I think ie. thou shalt not kill. Even if it's out of ensuring less suffering all round.


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    #6874
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    SW wrote: »
    not forcing a woman to carry a brainless body to term, just to watch it die.

    brainless is not correct. while much of the brain is not developed there is actually some brain there


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    #6875
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,883 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    OK, hypothesis time. Your wife is pregnant, and a complication arises which would cripple her with a high level of probability. Would you let her abort?


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    #6876
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    OK, hypothesis time. Your wife is pregnant, and a complication arises which would cripple her with a high level of probability. Would you let her abort?

    Which complication?


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    #6877
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Festus wrote: »
    I would prefer that all human life be treated with the respect and dignity it deserves.

    Ah. That's where you're going wrong then, because you can't force a pregnancy on someone on the one hand by preserving a fetus's terminally ill life for as long as possible, and still call what you're doing to the parent respect or dignity.


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    #6878
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Festus wrote: »
    brainless is not correct. while much of the brain is not developed there is actually some brain there

    But it's not functional, the baby is being artificially kept alive. The only reason to progress with the pregnancy is if the parents want to, the outcome will be the same. There is no difference in terms of the delivery, the labour will be induced via drugs much the same way it would be if the pregnancy continued to term. The death of the child is caused by its condition, not be any direct action of the doctors. It's a huge emotional burden to force a woman to carry a dying baby, do you not have any concept of how hard that is, people talking to you about your baby, having to see happy, healthy women when you go to your ante natal checks...its pure toture. You talk about dignity. What about the right of the parents to have their dignity respected?


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    #6879
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,883 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Festus wrote: »
    Which complication?

    Answer the question.


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    #6880
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Festus wrote: »
    Human life is human life and every human life begins with a single cell at fertilization. From that point on any deliberate act to destroy that life is homocide.

    The first bit is untrue: identical twins start out as one single cell at fertilization, but then some time later, the ball of cells splits.

    So the there is no one human life that began with a single cell: the fertilized cell is not one twin or the other: it is both, or neither.

    The idea that abortion is murder is an extreme fringe notion - even when abortion is illegal, no-one applies the same law as in murder cases.

    And if you really think fertilized eggs are human beings, you must really hate IVF, you should try and get it made illegal with the same punishment as murder.


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    #6881
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Festus wrote: »
    I fail to see the relevance of that question

    This is the Atheism and Agnosticism forum, and we are on the lookout for that rare bird, the "pro-life" atheist.


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    #6882
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Answer the question.

    Ok. We had a complication and my daughter was delivered by caesarian at around the mid 20 weeks mark. She was baptized, lived for a few days and died in my arms.

    She was beautiful but due to the complication had not developed enough.

    Abortion was never a consideration for me or her mother.


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    #6883
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    This is the Atheism and Agnosticism forum, and we are on the lookout for that rare bird, the "pro-life" atheist.


    well, I can tell you, they do exist. and they are rare though not as rare as you think


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    #6884
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    What about the dignity and respect due to the pregnant woman and her family, Festus?


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    #6885
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    Festus wrote: »
    Ok. We had a complication and my daughter was delivered by caesarian at around the mid 20 weeks mark. She was baptized, lived for a few days and died in my arms.

    She was beautiful but due to the complication had not developed enough.

    Abortion was never a consideration for me or her mother.

    With due condolences for your loss, you can't presume to know that the right choice for your family is the right choice for all families.


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    #6886
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Festus wrote: »
    Ok. We had a complication and my daughter was delivered by caesarian at around the mid 20 weeks mark. She was baptized, lived for a few days and died in my arms.

    She was beautiful but due to the complication had not developed enough.

    Abortion was never a consideration for me or her mother.


    ....which was a choice made by the pair of you and that's entirely your own business. However, I have to ask why you feel comfortable imposing that on others who may wish to take a different course?


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    #6887
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Festus wrote: »
    Ok. We had a complication and my daughter was delivered by caesarian at around the mid 20 weeks mark. She was baptized, lived for a few days and died in my arms.

    She was beautiful but due to the complication had not developed enough.

    Abortion was never a consideration for me or her mother.



    So you believe that the right decision for you should be enforced on everyone else? I'm very sorry for your loss, I am glad you both were able to say goodbye to your daughter the way you wanted but I'll be honest, I'm shocked you have so little empathy for others in the same situation. You don't have to agree with them but to force them to carry to term is unbelievably cruel.


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    #6888
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Festus wrote: »
    Abortion was never a consideration for me or her mother.

    I'm very sorry for your loss, and from your statement here, you didn't have to make a decision on what would be best for you and your family - there was a clear unanimous choice. For you. I am now bearing in mind that this is a very personal subject for you, and also that you may be affected when you hear about people choosing to abort. But you seem to want to make the choice for other people too?

    Why do you condemn people who take the choice that they would prefer a death to happen more quickly than if the fetus was left to die naturally? What difference does it make to you?


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    #6889
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    This is the Atheism and Agnosticism forum, and we are on the lookout for that rare bird, the "pro-life" atheist.
    I do have a vague recollection of one or two drifting in and out over the last few thousand posts, but it would perhaps be expecting too much for them to take on the far larger number of atheists who don't self-describe as "pro-life" (a term, which, like the term "pro-choice", is a rotten descriptor of complex beliefs).


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    #6890
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,883 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    robindch wrote: »
    I do have a vague recollection of one or two drifting in and out over the last few thousand posts, but it would perhaps be expecting too much for them to take on the far larger number of atheists who don't self-describe as "pro-life" (a term, which, like the term "pro-choice", is a rotten descriptor of complex beliefs).

    I think the only one I ever came across was sin_city, who wanted a total ban on abortions.


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    #6891
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    I thank you all for your sympathies and condolences.

    However I note that many of you could not help but also throw in additional comments.

    Life may not be sacred to you but it should be considered precious even if that life is somewhat imperfect.

    If any of you have had a similar experience and you "chose" to have your son or daughter killed because of their disability or condition rather than have some life and to die with their family around them I will be happy to discuss further.

    I would also be interested in discussing further with those who "chose" not to have their son or daughter killed and regret it.


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    #6892
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Festus wrote: »
    I thank you all for your sympathies and condolences.

    However I note that many of you could not help but also throw in additional comments.

    Life may not be sacred to you but it should be considered precious even if that life is somewhat imperfect.

    If any of you have had a similar experience and you "chose" to have your son or daughter killed because of their disability or condition rather than have some life and to die with their family around them I will be happy to discuss further.

    I would also be interested in discussing further with those who "chose" not to have their son or daughter killed and regret it.

    Would you be good enough to answer the question I put to you?


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    #6893
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,180 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Festus wrote: »
    I thank you all for your sympathies and condolences.

    However I note that many of you could not help but also throw in additional comments.

    Life may not be sacred to you but it should be considered precious even if that life is somewhat imperfect.

    If any of you have had a similar experience and you "chose" to have your son or daughter killed because of their disability or condition rather than have some life and to die with their family around them I will be happy to discuss further.

    I would also be interested in discussing further with those who "chose" not to have their son or daughter killed and regret it.
    I didn't choose to have my daughter killed, I chose to end my pregnancy. It was a very difficult decision, and caused us both, my husband and myself, a lot of heart searching, but I am certain that for our family it was the best decision.

    As for people who now regret not letting their premature child die, here is one : http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/mar/20/nathan-born-premature-life-death

    I am rather shocked that you feel that your decision is the right one for everyone. It may not be, and I would not judge you for the decision you made, so I expect the same courtesy from you.
    Your biased way of misrepresenting other people's heartache is quite offensive.


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    #6894
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,238 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Nodin wrote: »
    Would you be good enough to answer the question I put to you?

    And my one about Caroline Simons's failure to respond specifically to the opinion poll's findings on abortion in rape cases.


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    #6895
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Festus wrote: »
    I thank you all for your sympathies and condolences.

    However I note that many of you could not help but also throw in additional comments.

    Life may not be sacred to you but it should be considered precious even if that life is somewhat imperfect.

    If any of you have had a similar experience and you "chose" to have your son or daughter killed because of their disability or condition rather than have some life and to die with their family around them I will be happy to discuss further.

    I would also be interested in discussing further with those who "chose" not to have their son or daughter killed and regret it.


    Your personal experience doesn't end the discussion. Having personally gone through something doesn't mean your word on it is final and the rest of us and our opinions don't count. That's not how debate works. Choosing only to engage with people who have had personal experience of an abnormality won't encourage debate either. I've never personally been in that situation but I know women who have and I'm a parent so I can to some extent put myself in your shoes and consider what I would do if I was faced with that choice. I honestly don't know what I would do but I would like to have options. What I do know is what it is like to be faced with a crisis pregnancy, I had my first child as a teenager, not easy but it worked out in the end however I wouldn't be as flippant to think that gives my opinion some extra clout, it wouldn't make me say to a couple in the same situation that I made it work so you can too. Every situation, every family, pregnant woman is different. You may not like their choices but you can't force your will on them. Its not right, all you do is create more hurt and trauma.


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    #6896
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,883 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I wonder how Festus feels about El Salvador?


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    #6897
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    I wonder how Festus feels about El Salvador?

    is that rhetorical?


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    #6898
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    robindch wrote: »
    I do have a vague recollection of one or two drifting in and out over the last few thousand posts, but it would perhaps be expecting too much for them to take on the far larger number of atheists who don't self-describe as "pro-life" (a term, which, like the term "pro-choice", is a rotten descriptor of complex beliefs).

    You are right. It is difficult to deal with so many people who think that only some humans are worth letting live and those that are too burdensome emotionally or medically should be arbitrarily destroyed.


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    #6899
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,180 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Festus wrote: »
    is that rhetorical?

    Is there a reason why a post made after mine seemed to interest you more than mine, despite your claim that you were interested in discussing terminations for medical reasons with people whose choice was different from yours?


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    #6900
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Festus wrote: »
    Life may not be sacred to you but it should be considered precious even if that life is somewhat imperfect.
    Festus wrote: »
    You are right. It is difficult to deal with so many people who think that only some humans are worth letting live and those that are too burdensome emotionally or medically should be arbitrarily destroyed.

    For what it's worth, to me, even if there was a perfect fetus I would not consider its life sacred as I am not religious. It would be immensely valuable to me, if I was in the position of wanting it to continue to grow and in that case, it would be heartbreaking if it didn't. And for what it's worth, I let two of them grow already as I wanted to, and was in a position to have children.

    If I didn't want to though.....well, what is a minute barely formed human worth really? I guess not much to (for example) people who go through IVF and allow their frozen embryos to be disposed of, clearly. To you, a lot more. We're different. Does that make me wrong? No.


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    #6901
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Festus wrote: »
    the question is a muddle of the two issues in one question with the latter part existing only in fiction hence the uncertainty.

    Are you Sir Humphrey Appleby?


This discussion has been closed.
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