Why are people still voting Fianna Fail?

Pat Mustard

Link.

LATEST Irish poll figures have shown... that Ireland’s voting population is saturated with brain dead morons.

“Most of these idiots would have a sort of ‘goldfish’ memory, making them susceptible to the Fianna Fail PR machine.”

Riddle101

When you have so few options to choose from, I think you'll find many will vote for the same people again, even if they did wrong in the past. People voted for Fianna Faíl after Charles Haughey remember and he was arguably worse then Bertie Ahern. But sure enough it wasn't enough to turn people fully against them. Now we're seeing the same thing again. People want to current FF back in power because they're still not happy, and seem to think maybe this FF will be better then the last.

Pat Mustard

The Fianna Fáil party has been in 19 of the 25 governments that we have had since 1932.

That number is disproportionate in the extreme.

I don't think that the numbers can be explained by saying that support will rise for Fianna Fáil because voters are unhappy with Fine Gael.

The Irish voter has an obtuse, almost addictive relationship with FF.

I know that the Healy-Raes are no longer member of FF, and even though that recent bid to allow drink-driving for seasoned rural-dwelling drinkers was probably just a publicity gimmick*, it was still parish pump paddywhackery of the highest order.

This type of voter irresponsibility will result in this kind of representative:





*I presume that they knew that it could not succeed.

nesf

The Mustard wrote: »

The Fianna Fáil party has been in 19 of the 25 governments that we have had since 1932.

That number is disproportionate in the extreme.

I don't think that the numbers can be explained by saying that support will rise for Fianna Fáil because voters are unhappy with Fine Gael.

The Irish voter has an obtuse, almost addictive relationship with FF.

I know that the Healy-Raes are no longer member of FF, and even though that recent bid to allow drink-driving for seasoned rural-dwelling drinkers was probably just a publicity gimmick*, it was still parish pump paddywhackery of the highest order.

This type of voter irresponsibility will result in this kind of representative:





*I presume that they knew that it could not succeed.

Well, FF tried to get rid of Jackie by not allowing him to run for the seat he'd held for 20 odd years in Kerry South. So he went Independent and FF have had one less seat there since...

Because people are gluttons for punishment.

worded

Read the poster ..... One road fixed ....More fixes to follow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl8OIZijjY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Pat Mustard

nesf wrote: »

Well, FF tried to get rid of Jackie by not allowing him to run for the seat he'd held for 20 odd years in Kerry South. So he went Independent and FF have had one less seat there since...

Well then, I present other famous FF personalities, voted in by the adoring Irish electorate:

Ivor Callely, who had a long old commute from West Cork to Leinster House. Fair play to him.



Pee Flynn, who had to struggle to manage the cost of his homes in Dublin, Castlebar and Brussels and a few housekeepers on his £140,000 salary, who cautioned others to "try it sometime." There are also some charming youtube comments from happy former constituents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ORNfD8e_sk

Beverley Flynn, who lost her libel case and Supreme Court Appeal, running up costs of €2.3m.



Ray Burke, who receives income of €103,000.00 per year from the State.



A man who had no bank account when he was Minister for Finance. It was those pesky banking charges, I suppose. Famously wondered why cribbers and moaners didn't commit suicide. Turned up in a cupboard on an ad. There is a vulgar yet amusing song on youtube called Message for Bertie Ahern (NSFW). Obviously the singer is not a fan.



Charles J. Haughey, fan of Napoleon. A man of wealth and taste in shirts. Not every fella had a private island with an air exclusion zone. Lived in a mansion. Ate at Le Coq Hardi. Advised the public to tighten their belts.

Son Of A Vidic

The Mustard wrote: »

People are also forgetting that......

.jacksparrow.

Its called propaganda, keep telling people the same thing over and ever again, eventualy they will believe it.


Sheep.

_Kaiser_

- Lack of real/realistic options

- A lazy electorate with a "can't someone ELSE do it" approach to civic responsibility AKA the "I'm alright Jack" effect

- Support for the cute hoor mentality that leads to all these "strokes" by politicians and other "leaders" in our society

- A broken system where 90% of TDs are there solely to make up the numbers anyway (and line their own pockets of course)

- Collusion and support from the Civil Service, Gardai, military, trade unions (ie: the kind of groups that can generally support/force change)

Actually.. I'm tempted to withdraw the second point above. I'm not actually sure if it's just laziness or an inherent docile submissive nature to "Authority" after generations of being run by the corrupt, backwards institution that is the Catholic Church (in other news this morning - Church refuses to pay compensation to the Magdeline victims), and government after government (and it makes no difference which party is at the wheel) of local gombeen men having their fill at the taxpayer's expense to the point where most are just resigned to the fact that things just won't change regardless of whatever comes to light.

Why else are there not mass protests over the Anglo Tapes, why have people like Reilly and Hogan not been forced to resign, why has the Garda Commissioner not been stripped of his post and members fired over recent behavior like the Penalty Points affair, leaking supposedly confidential information on citizens for political point-scoring and so on, why has not ONE former politician or banking executive been sent to prison for crashing the economy etc..

Really, if we're not prepared to fully hand over the reins to someone else, whether that be the UK, US or (last resort IMO) the EU, then I can only advise that anyone who has the option and opportunity leaves this corrupt little cesspool and never looks back - were it not for my own age and personal circumstances that's what I'd be doing!

nuac

Gardai, military, "forcing change" - like in Egypt?

T runner

Jessie Microscopic Kicker wrote: »

In the context of our continued recession and economic woes and despite the current governments difficulties re abortion legislation etc. I still cant understand the rationale for the upsurge in support for FF. Bear in mind that the current government is only in two years, do people have such short memories that they can't remember or fail to realise that is was as a direct result of FF policies that we are in the current predicament.

No party affiliations to declare.

No matter who gets elected, the typical "type" of candidate and TD will be a middle aged, wife at home, socially conservative, pint drinking when supposed to be working, anti-intellectual relic who is un-representative of the population.

T runner

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- Lack of real/realistic options

- A lazy electorate with a "can't someone ELSE do it" approach to civic responsibility AKA the "I'm alright Jack" effect

- Support for the cute hoor mentality that leads to all these "strokes" by politicians and other "leaders" in our society

- A broken system where 90% of TDs are there solely to make up the numbers anyway (and line their own pockets of course)

- Collusion and support from the Civil Service, Gardai, military, trade unions (ie: the kind of groups that can generally support/force change)

Actually.. I'm tempted to withdraw the second point above. I'm not actually sure if it's just laziness or an inherent docile submissive nature to "Authority" after generations of being run by the corrupt, backwards institution that is the Catholic Church (in other news this morning - Church refuses to pay compensation to the Magdeline victims), and government after government (and it makes no difference which party is at the wheel) of local gombeen men having their fill at the taxpayer's expense to the point where most are just resigned to the fact that things just won't change regardless of whatever comes to light.

Why else are there not mass protests over the Anglo Tapes, why have people like Reilly and Hogan not been forced to resign, why has the Garda Commissioner not been stripped of his post and members fired over recent behavior like the Penalty Points affair, leaking supposedly confidential information on citizens for political point-scoring and so on, why has not ONE former politician or banking executive been sent to prison for crashing the economy etc..

Really, if we're not prepared to fully hand over the reins to someone else, whether that be the UK, US or (last resort IMO) the EU, then I can only advise that anyone who has the option and opportunity leaves this corrupt little cesspool and never looks back - were it not for my own age and personal circumstances that's what I'd be doing!

Why not attempt to solve theses problems rather than hand over sovereignty to supra-national authorities with problems and loyalties of their own?

Any corruption here is drawved by what transpired in colonial times: (£1.5 million paid to Irish MPs to "vote" for Act of Union!)

A reformation to ensure a representative Dail would be a great start. Further breakthroughs would ensue. The talent is in the country, but not represented in Dail Eireann. The EU has overall been of huge social and economic benefit to Ireland. Its foreign policy is also acceptable to us which is clearly not the case for your other suggestions.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

...anti-intellectual relic who is un-representative of the population.

There's a lot of work to be done to convince me that an anti-intellectual is unrepresentative of the population.

Sleepy

T runner wrote: »

Why not attempt to solve theses problems rather than hand over sovereignty to supra-national authorities with problems and loyalties of their own?

Fear of jail? Honestly, as an ordinary individual the most effective input I could have into politics in Ireland would involve a rifle.

Bullseye1

Jessie Microscopic Kicker wrote: »

In the context of our continued recession and economic woes and despite the current governments difficulties re abortion legislation etc. I still cant understand the rationale for the upsurge in support for FF. Bear in mind that the current government is only in two years, do people have such short memories that they can't remember or fail to realise that is was as a direct result of FF policies that we are in the current predicament.

No party affiliations to declare.

I guess 1. The die hard fans will vote for them no matter what and 2. The current bunch are not exactly covering themselves in glory either.

The economy is back in recession, the banks are broken and may well require more capital from taxpayers, one in seven people in the workforce is without work and public debt is touching €200 billion.
On top of this litany of woes, the State’s statisticians said yesterday that the value of goods exports fell in May to €7 billion, well below the monthly average over recent times – in 2011-12 that average was €7.6 billion. The one bright spot over the past half decade of recession – sales of goods and services to foreigners – has faltered this year. Sources of growth in the Irish economy are now fewer than ever.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/ratings-move-helps-with-debt-burden-1.1462267

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a lot of work to be done to convince me that an anti-intellectual is unrepresentative of the population.

Anti-intellectualism is not confined to these shores. Sorry if i've misunderstood but I don't really subscribe to the defeatest attitude that we as Irish are not fit to govern ourselves.

Look at a recent poll on abortion. (from memory) 75% of irish people would favour abortion for foetal abnormalities, and cases of incest and rape.

Yet the vast majority of the two main political parties vehementally oppose this reasonable position.

The drunk TD manhandling a female colleague does not represent Irish men or women most of home respect women as equals in the workforce and share in child rearing.

There are plenty of politically minded people with immense talent and integrity who are simply locked out of politics by its current structure and by barriers that protect the status quo.

The people of Ireland are different, thinking for themselves.

Reflecting this in political structures is not easy. Even after one of the worst crises in the States history the politicians are unwilling to reform without duress.

No, they are anti-intellectual...and that does not represent the population anymore.

T runner

Sleepy wrote: »

Fear of jail? Honestly, as an ordinary individual the most effective input I could have into politics in Ireland would involve a rifle.

Anybody can say that of any country. No. You can engage in mass democratic protest. This is highly effective.
It is the political elite who fear this and who benefit from your fear and apathy.

You could also identify radical changes that could produce many more.

I see Ireland being more open minded now..as progressing. I see Dail TDs as men of the 70's.

Most effective step is to make the Dail more representative. For me that is gender quotas for Dail Eireann. Not every agrees with it but more and more people are starting to view it as necessary now. The amount of structural change and barrier removal just to accomplish this would open up politics for many many more people (of both sexes, more cultures, more backgrounds.)

Potatoeman

T runner wrote: »

Anybody can say that of any country. No. You can engage in mass democratic protest. This is highly effective.
It is the political elite who fear this and who benefit from your fear and apathy.

You could also identify radical changes that could produce many more.

I see Ireland being more open minded now..as progressing. I see Dail TDs as men of the 70's.

Most effective step is to make the Dail more representative. For me that is gender quotas for Dail Eireann. Not every agrees with it but more and more people are starting to view it as necessary now. The amount of structural change and barrier removal just to accomplish this would open up politics for many many more people (of both sexes, more cultures, more backgrounds.)

Quotas will just see more women from the same class fill these positions so nothing will change and even then there is no guarantee that they will be voted for. I dont think there is a valid reason for quotas based on gender as its not a motivator for people that vote. Its more reflective of the age group of politicians rather than bias.

What other cultures are you looking for? Shouldnt we be presented by Irish people?

T runner

Potatoeman wrote: »

Quotas will just see more women from the same class fill these positions so nothing will change and even then there is no guarantee that they will be voted for. I dont think there is a valid reason for quotas based on gender as its not a motivator for people that vote. Its more reflective of the age group of politicians rather than bias.

What other cultures are you looking for? Shouldnt we be presented by Irish people?

The initial change will be what the establishment must do to facilitate more women candidates. They must remove barriers to this happenning which will effectively mean chnaging political culture. Less barriers will mean opening up politics to more men (with more life experinces) so the result is politicians who are more represenative with a wider skillset and range of experiences. Cost is one of the barriers affecting women. Addressing this should open things up to people on lower incomes.



Drawing from a bigger pool means better quality.
If IT professionals could only be drawn from middle aged men from a narropw background with a child minding wife at home would the It industry be a poorer place? Ofcourse it would.

Same with politics or any other sector. If you know of another way of opening it up im all ears. If not then without quotas, FF will keep popping back up like a jack in the box, FG will win votes despite their catholic social policies, and other parties will never be able to threaten this status quo. As i said, its not ideal, but people are starting to realsie that it may be necessary.

BTW the definition of Irish is having an Irish passport. Culture doesnt nor shouldnt come into it. Religion does, but that will hopefully be removed from the constitution too.

Savage93

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

While this is true, you have to remember that the party who were in charge in Iceland when shít hit the fan got re-elected recently. The same could happen here.

But that party was not squandering billions and was not responsible for the crash there, this was a global thing

Potatoeman

T runner wrote: »

The initial change will be what the establishment must do to facilitate more women candidates. They must remove barriers to this happenning which will effectively mean chnaging political culture. Less barriers will mean opening up politics to more men (with more life experinces) so the result is politicians who are more represenative with a wider skillset and range of experiences. Cost is one of the barriers affecting women. Addressing this should open things up to people on lower incomes.



Drawing from a bigger pool means better quality.
If IT professionals could only be drawn from middle aged men from a narropw background with a child minding wife at home would the It industry be a poorer place? Ofcourse it would.

Same with politics or any other sector. If you know of another way of opening it up im all ears. If not then without quotas, FF will keep popping back up like a jack in the box, FG will win votes despite their catholic social policies, and other parties will never be able to threaten this status quo. As i said, its not ideal, but people are starting to realsie that it may be necessary.

BTW the definition of Irish is having an Irish passport. Culture doesnt nor shouldnt come into it. Religion does, but that will hopefully be removed from the constitution too.

I think people will question the ability of those that are there due to quotas. The current generarion of politician are from a time when their wives stayed at home. I dont think this is reflective of people now entering the current political world. I imagune these quotas will make it more difficult for younger men to enter politics. So will we need age quotas too?

I only mentioned cultures as you said more cultures would be a positive thing. Why would someone from a different culture represent us any better?

Stabshauptmann

Sleepy wrote: »

As I'd see it, ardmacha, the public perception at present would be that Fine Gael would have more integrity and competence than FF. Far fewer of their politicians have been found out in dodgy dealings

Dont agree. Reilly and Shatter have to go before I could vote FG. Two obvious examples of mis use of power from a Gov only in power 2 years. Shocking.

sdanseo

FF's political values - sans corruption - would be where my political allegiance would lie, if I had one. Their stated goals are pretty much what I'd favour, and I voted for them perhaps a little blindly in 2007 when I was just 18.

I voted FG last election because Cowen had made the country a complete laughing stock, because Bertie had been pretty much proven to have taken bribes, and because it was apparent that many in FF were likely to be or to have been just as corrupt, that they were letting power go to their heads, that they had behaved irresponsibly and ruined the country, basically.

People forget that to have a property crash, you generally had to have had a lot of success, before trying to milk it too much. Fianna Fáil did a good job in a lot of ways from 1997-2006, they directed inward investment, got us the biggest surplus we'd ever had, secured some really decent infrastructure (I sincerely doubt the Luas, the motorways, or the port tunnel would have existed under FG). Unfortunately a serious number of them took cash for bad planning decisions; and they practiced absolutely zero common sense when planning anything at all, even the aforementioned infrastructure projects. They allowed building after building to pop up in the smallest of spaces, in a lot of cases blocking any possibility of expanding the roads and other infrastructure to access them. They were driven by money.

I conclude:

That FG have proven themselves to be a party of whining, loatheful, belt-tightening, upper-class blueshirts.
That Fianna Fáil have shown they have more rotten eggs than a battery hen farm after a pesticide leak, and
That Labour are simply spiness cowardly morons, especially a certain sellout whose actions have single-handedly censored the internet;
and that a new political party, along the lines perhaps of where the PDs left off, is needed to replace one or all of them.

The above combined with new laws in pretty much every area that actually make some sense and a saved and more utilised seanad with directly elected participants would go a long way to helping this country recover.

Potatoeman

sdeire wrote: »

FF's political values - sans corruption - would be where my political allegiance would lie, if I had one. Their stated goals are pretty much what I'd favour, and I voted for them perhaps a little blindly in 2007 when I was just 18.

I voted FG last election because Cowen had made the country a complete laughing stock, because Bertie had been pretty much proven to have taken bribes, and because it was apparent that many in FF were likely to be or to have been just as corrupt, that they were letting power go to their heads, that they had behaved irresponsibly and ruined the country, basically.

People forget that to have a property crash, you generally had to have had a lot of success, before trying to milk it too much. Fianna Fáil did a good job in a lot of ways from 1997-2006, they directed inward investment, got us the biggest surplus we'd ever had, secured some really decent infrastructure (I sincerely doubt the Luas, the motorways, or the port tunnel would have existed under FG). Unfortunately a serious number of them took cash for bad planning decisions; and they practiced absolutely zero common sense when planning anything at all, even the aforementioned infrastructure projects. They allowed building after building to pop up in the smallest of spaces, in a lot of cases blocking any possibility of expanding the roads and other infrastructure to access them. They were driven by money.

I conclude:

That FG have proven themselves to be a party of whining, loatheful, belt-tightening, upper-class blueshirts.
That Fianna Fáil have shown they have more rotten eggs than a battery hen farm after a pesticide leak, and
That Labour are simply spiness cowardly morons, especially a certain sellout whose actions have single-handedly censored the internet;
and that a new political party, along the lines perhaps of where the PDs left off, is needed to replace one or all of them.

The above combined with new laws in pretty much every area that actually make some sense and a saved and more utilised seanad with directly elected participants would go a long way to helping this country recover.

Capital infrastructure would have happened under any government but FF didnt spend enough of their budget on general infrastructure as they sought to buy votes. Its the first thing you cut in a downturn but they put most of the money in pay and staff numbers which are hard to cut.
The bubble started way before 2006 and a big problem with FF is that they threw money at problems.
They would have a better chance at a comeback of they had of cleared house and issued a propper appology not the half asses one they did.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Potatoeman wrote: »

Capital infrastructure would have happened under any government but FF didnt spend enough of their budget on general infrastructure as they sought to buy votes. Its the first thing you cut in a downturn but they put most of the money in pay and staff numbers which are hard to cut.
The bubble started way before 2006 and a big problem with FF is that they threw money at problems.
They would have a better chance at a comeback of they had of cleared house and issued a propper appology not the half asses one they did.

That's another problem with FF, they are all things to all people. They avoid making tough decisions choosing instead to throw money at problems and buy votes.

If there are any FF supporters reading this, I'd like to ask you - what would it take for you not to vote FF? We're so used to hearing the argument from rural communities that FF are fighting their cause up in Dublin, yet FF have been in Government for the majority of time since Ireland's independence and by and large we have been a backward country. So if you've been voting FF for the last fifty years and your community still has poor public service and poor infrastructure, don't you think it's time to elect another representative?

Also, to avoid any ambiguity, I have no connections to any party but at least this current government is making tough decisions. E.g. abolish the Seanad, legislate for x case, reduce judges pay and tried to give the Oireachtas more powers of inquiry but it was voted down and now ironically people are jumping up and down over the Anglo tapes and why there is no inquiry! All of these issues FF would have run a mile from.

chanchanman

I voted for Fianna Fail in the last general election. At the the time, I felt that Fianna Fail were the only party talking any sense. Fine Gael and Labour were both promising things which I thought were completely unrealistic at the time. I thought that they were either deliberately misleading the public to gain office or were genuinely naive about what they would have to do to tackle the bailout. Neither of those explanations filled me with confidence.

On the other hand, Micheal Martin had taken over Fianna Fail, so in my opinion, the link to the past was broken. More importantly, he consistently pointed out how Fine Gael/Labour would simply not be able to fulfil their promises. None of the independents in my constituency were particularly appealing. Therefore, Fianna Fail were the best option available to me and were the party most aligned to my thoughts at the time.

Perhaps people are continuing to vote for FF for these reasons and for the perceived failure of FG and Labour (in particular) to deliver on many of the ideals that they promised. After all, FF are probably the only other party large enough to be considered as an alternative to the incumbent government.

However, none of this means that I would definitely vote for FF in the next general election. I have no allegiance to any party. So far, I think that the Fine Gael/Labour mix has done a reasonable job but I am uncertain how much different their approach has been when compared to what FF may have done. Once we exit the bailout, we may see a larger government influence on the direction of the country. The impact of that influence will probably decide who wins my vote next time.

Smash The House

chanchanman wrote: »

On the other hand, Micheal Martin had taken over Fianna Fail, so in my opinion, the link to the past was broken. More importantly, he consistently pointed out how Fine Gael/Labour would simply not be able to fulfil their promises. None of the independents in my constituency were particularly appealing. Therefore, Fianna Fail were the best option available to me and were the party most aligned to my thoughts at the time.

Is it feck
I think most people would associate Martin with Bertie & Co.
From wiki...

Prior to becoming party leader, Martin served as Minister for Education and Science (1997–2000), Minister for Health and Children (2000–04), Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (2004–08) and Minister for Foreign Affairs (2008–11).

So he was Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment right before the crash

My prediction, Fianna Fail will reclaim a good few seats in the next election. After, a new leader will be elected and the following election they'll be back in power. Dara Calleary is one to watch imo.

For Forks Sake

Jessie Microscopic Kicker wrote: »

That's another problem with FF, they are all things to all people. They avoid making tough decisions choosing instead to throw money at problems and buy votes.

I have just heard Timmy Dooley (also a member of the last government) calling on the government to buy shares in Aer Lingus. Go figure.

v638sg7k1a92bx

For Forks Sake wrote: »

I have just heard Timmy Dooley (also a member of the last government) calling on the government to buy shares in Aer Lingus. Go figure.

Sorry I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but are you joking or being serious?