.243 B-Tip

Cass

Was on the range today with the .243 test firing to confirm zero. She is perfect as expected.


I have tried 58gr V-Max, Federal 80gr S/P, S&B 100gr S/P, and have recently moved onto 95gr Superformance. The 95s are working well, but as with the 150 in .308 i noticed the groups are not as tight. Now witht he other ammo, and ignoring variances in drop, they all one hole.

I believe the 95gr Superformance at nearly 3,200 fps is going that little too quick for the 1:10. As i know the 80gr & 100gr work perfectly i'm wondering if i back off the speed by switching to a slower, yet equally heavy bullet, would tighten it up.

Now i am confident that she'll drop whatever i point the rifle at. My Father was out the other night and dropped a fox at 181 yards. Stone dead. No complaints on that end, but i'd like something that shows that tightness when zeroing.


So anyone use 80gr GMX or 87 GR SST Customlite? Lastly the 95gr SST (non superformance) seem to be running nearly 300fps slower than the Superformance so was thinking these would tighten up the groups. While not looking to turn the rifle into a target rifle i want to play around with a bit more ammo before the season starts. Need to stick to ballistic tips. Personal preference.


So other than any reviews or advice on the above any that can point me in the right direction of a dealer that stocks any of the three, i'd appreciate it.

One shot on kill

I'm not 100% but I think I seen 95gr in sst in Griffan hawes. They were hornady. A quick call will confirm or disappoint.

Cass

I had the same problem with the Superformance in 308. Wild "groups", and when chrono'd the speeds were extreme (faster than handloads). When i switched to the same bullet just in a "standard" load the grouping and effect was much better. Hence the reason i'd like to try the 95 SST in "normal" loads rather than the Super.

However in .243 they group far better than in the 308 variety (Superformance).

One shot on kill

243 in the little time I have mine I'm surprised how easy it is to to group most rounds. I use the 100gr btsp and they will all touch at 100 yards no bother.

What distance you shooting at and could that have any impact.

silverfox1

If its b-tips you want to use both Winchester and federal do 95 grain noslers as far as I know. Also Norma do a serious fox load with 75grain v max. Great for neck and head shooting deer too.

Cass

100 and 200 yards.

I have tried all varieties and thus far she is grouping one hole/ragged one hole) all of them. The 95gr Superformance are not touching but grouping well. So i've no problem with the performance in terms of hitting what i aim at.

However this is more a test than anything. If i could get 95gr SST and not the Superformance variey, try a box, and see the difference in grouping between the two then i'd know if it's me or the gun prefers the slower round.


Another aspect, and you touched on it with the distance question, is the bullet/distance combo. From my experience in 308 i realised that a heavy bullet (and 95 gr would be heavy for the caliber) would not group well at high speeds at shorter distances. So my 308, firing 185gr bullets would not group well at 100 or even 200 yards. Slightly better at 300, but bring her out to 600, and once at 1,000 yards where she shoots a 2.375" group. IOW the bullets were traveling so fast they were not stabilising. I had contemplated the idea that the 95grs would stabilise at 300 yards, but was too lazy to walk down to put up a target.

Cass

silverfox1 wrote: »

If its b-tips you want to use both Winchester and federal do 95 grain noslers as far as I know. .

Did not know that about the Federal. I like them as a bullet/round. Cheap yet very effective and good performing. However the only ones i've come across were 80 or 100(iirc), and non B-Tip. Do you use them and if so where do you get them.

A for Norma i used to use them, but barring Jim McBride i don't know of anyone that stocks them. My local lad is great for variety, but Hornady is his bread and butter hence the reason i tend to stay with them. Plus let's face it they're not a bad round.

Robotack

I'm getting great results with the federal 95gr nosler ballistic tips. Highly recommend them but I hear great things about the 58gr also.

garv123

Cass wrote: »

Did not know that about the Federal. I like them as a bullet/round. Cheap yet very effective and good performing. However the only ones i've come across were 80 or 100(iirc), and non B-Tip. Do you use them and if so where do you get them.

Patrick Carley in wexford has them.. 37euro a box.

He also has RWS geko 105gr SP for 26euro a box if you fancied checking out the 105gr.
Delivery is 5euro.

TriggerPL

80 grain gmx will one hole all day long at 100 yards and they will stop anything you shoot at , I also think they are the flattest of the hornady 243 rounds

4200fps

Try the Federal 75 grain Hollow points. I use GMX and they are top class but I discovered the Hollop point Federals that bit more accurate

Cass

Heading off shortly to pick up a few, and the two rounds named above (Hornady 80gr GMX, and Federal 75gr H/P) are the two he has, and recommended. So will pick up a couple of boxes of each to see how they go.

Given their weight, size, etc they should run almost the same and if so might just run the gun on both. Will just need to check MV, and if they are close i should be good to go.

Thanks lads.

yubabill1

Cass wrote:

"Another aspect, and you touched on it with the distance question, is the bullet/distance combo. From my experience in 308 i realised that a heavy bullet (and 95 gr would be heavy for the caliber) would not group well at high speeds at shorter distances. So my 308, firing 185gr bullets would not group well at 100 or even 200 yards. Slightly better at 300, but bring her out to 600, and once at 1,000 yards where she shoots a 2.375" group. IOW the bullets were traveling so fast they were not stabilising".

I don't feel comfortable with that hypothesis. It is true that heavier bullets in a given calibre are known to group better at longer ranges than lighter ones, given a suitable barrel. But if you're punching 2.37" @ 1000, then you're getting 0.237" @ 100 while the round is on its way to the target.

You might think of it this way, if a bullet is initially unstable, even microscopically so, the dispersion is going to be magnified with range.



I have experienced the same conundrum more than once. Sometimes you just have to come back another day and see what happens.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

I don't feel comfortable with that hypothesis.

I'm afraid levels of comfort have nothing to do with it. These are real world results and not estimations.

It is true that heavier bullets in a given calibre are known to group better at longer ranges than lighter ones, given a suitable barrel. But if you're punching 2.37" @ 1000, then you're getting 0.237" @ 100 while the round is on its way to the target.

From your lips to my rifle.

I am not telling this to hammer home some untrue point. I am communicating a given result that has been tried and tested on numerous occasions with witnesses (dev110, fish slapped, ruger1894c, etc.). The gun would group at 100 yards, but not at the 0.237" mark. More around the 1" mark.

You might think of it this way, if a bullet is initially unstable, even microscopically so, the dispersion is going to be magnified with range.

Again, I am not saying this to cause a debate on the topic. I do not have the requisite knowledge, understanding (or education for that matter) to argue the point either way. All i can tell you is what happened to me, with my rifle, and my given load at the distances mentioned.

Believe me, i would have preferred they grouped the same at all distances as it would have saved me developing a different load for the shorter distances (benchrest, etc.)

Sometimes you just have to come back another day and see what happens.

5 months, minimum of one range visit a week, distances from 100 yards to 1,200 yards, and 600 rounds. That's the testing i done, and the results were consistently the same.

The only variation being with a low charge, heavy bullet at 100 yards i was getting exceptional grouping. When fired at anything over 900 yards the bullets were key holing.

Cass

Back on topic.

4200fps wrote: »

Try the Federal 75 grain Hollow points. I use GMX and they are top class but I discovered the Hollop point Federals that bit more accurate

Got a few boxes of the Hornady 75gr Hp as there were none in the Federal. All the GMX, SST were Superformance and not going down that road.

Robotack wrote: »

I'm getting great results with the federal 95gr nosler ballistic tips. Highly recommend them but I hear great things about the 58gr also.

Bought a couple of boxes of them to try. Bloody expensive more than Hornady, but seem to be a good round, and i like Federal as no matter the caliber i've owned they always performed well/good/great. A reliable brand.

yubabill1

Cass wrote:

"All i can tell you is what happened to me, with my rifle, and my given load at the distances mentioned".

I don't doubt you observed this. I have seen it in my own shooting, albeit not at 1000yds (2.2" @ 1000 is one helluva group, btw:)).

To expand my point, you would not use the load that keyholed at 900yds at 1900yds and expect it to be more accurate, for the same reason - the dispersion becomes magnified with range.

I don't think it's possible for an unstable bullet to straighten-up and become more accurate with range. There has to be another explanation of what you observed IMHO. I don't pretend to know what that reason is, I just have a strong prejudice about the initial stability hypothesis.

And I don't doubt that you solved the problem, which is absolutely fine by me and well done.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

I don't doubt you observed this. I have seen it in my own shooting, albeit not at 1000yds (2.2" @ 1000 is one helluva group, btw:)).

Shot them on a few occasions, but it was the shooter that was always the let down in terms of consistently doing those groups.

To expand my point, you would not use the load that keyholed at 900yds at 1900yds and expect it to be more accurate, for the same reason - the dispersion becomes magnified with range.

No you wouldn't, and i get your point. However with this keyholling round it was perfect at 100 yards. Not too hard to understand that a low charged round will destabilise at distance. Lack of momentum, shift from supersonic through trans sonic, and then sub sonic barrier, etc. Again i do not pretend to fully understand the the intricacies of ballistics. Just enough to be dangerous.

The only way to show someone would be to have a target at 100 yards, and 1,000 yards (in whatever format they need to be). Shoot through the 100 yard target and onto the 1,000 yard then measure the variance in group sizes. You would be looking at a group 29" above 100 yard zero point to accomplish this. Perhaps transparent targets at 100 yards.

I don't think it's possible for an unstable bullet to straighten-up and become more accurate with range. There has to be another explanation of what you observed IMHO. I don't pretend to know what that reason is, I just have a strong prejudice about the initial stability hypothesis.

In this case excuse my lack of proper terminology. Perhaps "stabilise" was not the correct term, but my point being the round acted different at shorter ranges than at longer ranges.

And I don't doubt that you solved the problem, which is absolutely fine by me and well done.

It was never an issue to begin with tbh.

I never shot below 800 yards with the rifle/round in question. A young lad, interested in FTR, was asking questions so i showed him the rifle, and how it shot. When i fired at 100 yards is when i first noticed the spread in group size. From that point i was curious as to why it done so. Rather than continuously make two batches i stuck with long range and did not bother with short range (sub 500 yards).


I am not blind to the fact that there could be an outside force i am not considering that would cause the results. Perhaps shooting from a bench, varying prone position at the 100 yards compared to the firing points at 800+ ranges. Maybe i did not concentrate enough knowing the shots were only to demonstrate the gun firing as opposed to seeking the best possible groups at 100 yards. I really don't know.


One thing i will ask though. When a bullet is fired, at whatever speed, it spins on it's own axis, IOW RPM. There have been many articles on the issue of the ideal RPM for a given round to achieve best possible performance from that round in a given barrel (twist rate) even helping to pick the ideal twist rate for a barrel. Would it be possible that a bullet spinning at say 250,000 RPM which causes it to spin a little too much, but not so much to "destabilise" could slow to a lower RPM and hence perform better at distance, before slowing to such a low rate of RPM that it would cause the bullet to once again "destabilise" and begin to tumble/key hole.

The objective here being to find the longest possible range or distances when best accuracy occurs. That might seem stupid or silly, but i'm spit balling here, and thinking as i go so not thoroughly thinking out the question before asking. The obvious answer being if it starts "unstable" it will remain so, but have to ask anyway.

yubabill1

"One thing i will ask though. When a bullet is fired, at whatever speed, it spins on it's own axis, IOW RPM. There have been many articles on the issue of the ideal RPM for a given round to achieve best possible performance from that round in a given barrel (twist rate) even helping to pick the ideal twist rate for a barrel. Would it be possible that a bullet spinning at say 250,000 RPM which causes it to spin a little too much, but not so much to "destabilise" could slow to a lower RPM and hence perform better at distance, before slowing to such a low rate of RPM that it would cause the bullet to once again "destabilise" and begin to tumble/key hole".

That is my understanding of what actually would happen in that scenario: I imagine there would be very little dispersion under ideal conditions (say, in a vacuum and with identical velocities for each shot).

I wonder about the effect of the atmosphere working on the bullet nose as it spins too fast (shear) and then where the bullet is in its trajectory from shot-to-shot when it re-stabilises gyroscopically.

However, I do not pretend to be an expert on this.

I suspect certain bullets/calibres deal with this scenario better than others. For instance - you probably know better than me - the F Class shooters like the 6.5/287 for its long range performance. The 6.5 calibre bullet is often torpedo-shaped and I can imagine it would be more stable over a range of spins than, say a shorter, fatter bullet.

Interesting point.

4200fps

Cass wrote: »

Back on topic.


Got a few boxes of the Hornady 75gr Hp as there were none in the Federal. All the GMX, SST were Superformance and not going down that road.

You should have tried them seriously. Still without a doubt try the Federal HP. I didnt find the Hornady HP great but mines a different make of rifle to yours. Them saucer rifles love Lapua ammunition. I haven't made up my mind which to stay with. I want a round that will do all most importantly a round thats accurate and has top class stopping power. I'd never buy anything heavier than 95 grain for a 243 Cass.

Cass

I'll admit that the Superformance in .243 are far better than their counterpart in .308. They group for a start, and are reliable enough. However i've seen what the rifle does with any other brand or grainage of ammo, and i don't think it's too much of a push to ask for that in Hornady's "Flagship" round.

After trying the Superformance in both 308 and .243 i remain a little underwhelmed. I suppose the GMX should have gotten a spin, but honestly at this stage i'm just looking for a good quality round with reliable and repeatable performance.

I got the 75gr as they were cheap enough, and should run nicely (time will tell). The Federal i just like, and i'm fond of the heavier bullets, plus the rifle is a 1:10 so suited to the heavier rounds. After saying that she had no problems with the 58gr V-max.

It's been a few years since i had a .243 and back then i was more a "once it hits the target at all i'm happy" kind of person. A lot has changed and while i'm not looking for target rifle precision out of a hunting rifle, the RPA is capable of giving such performance so i'm trying everything.

Luckily my dealer is well used to me, and changes ammo for me regularly with no hassle.


Going to give her a test run on either Wednesday or Thursday and see how she gets on.


Thanks again lads for the suggestions so far.

badshot

have you tried the federal 70 grain nosler ballistic tip
they really are a superb round
also the norma 75 grain v max
i couldn't get hornady superformance to group consistently

Cass

Just back from the range and sorted.

I tried a few Hornady 75gr HP. They were adequate and acted much like the SST. No drp between 100 to 200 yards. Groups were between 0.5 & 1 moa at both distances. I would get a nice clover leaf then one or two outside the group.

I moved onto the Federal 95gr Nosler BT. Unbelievable accuracy and repeatability. They were one holing at 100 and clover leafing at 200. My first shot at 200 was smack, bang in the middle of the 1" bull and the others dead on for elevation just a fraction to the right (that could be me). The drop between 100 and 200 was just an inch so i have a nice point blank range.

So all sorted. Just need to exchange the rest of the Hornady for the Federal and i'm set for the season.


Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. All very helpful.

4200fps

Good report! I must try a box of the 95grain Federals. how much are they? Have they a blue tip? I always found at least 5 rounds out of 20 in Hornady ammunition will stray for no reason like what happend you with the hollow points

Cass

The Federal 95gr Nosler have a "purple/blue tip.

They are more expensive than you may be used to for Federal ranging between €37 to €44 per box depending on dealer. However i would not begrudge the price simply because i'd pay that for Hornady so regardless of brand i'm already paying the price just now i have a bullet that performs.

Just to note all shots were taken using between 6-10 power. SO a higher powered scope might give better results, but i cannot see how.

When i fired my first two shots at 100 i had to use the spotting scope as i could not see the second. It was not until i fired the third that the hole got bigger and i realised she was one holing them.

4200fps

At 300 yards roughly not range finded I took a shot at a target. I aimed 6 inches high as I didn't have my MOA to hand to dial in. I took my lighter out before firing and the flame was calm. I let rip and the round hit exactly 1" high above bulls eye and about 5mm to the right if even. I was happy out. The grouping at that range is about 1" under calm conditions from GMX. Would the GMX be a better balanced round vs lead core rounds as the GMX is 95% pure copper with a polymer tip? Might sound like a stupid question but I'm wondering what your opinion would be? You certainly found a good round for your rifle! Must try a box of them out soon. Last thing out of all the 243 rounds I used so far when you shake the GMX round you cant feel the powder budge inside as they must be jammed packed with powder where others you wound feel the powder move about inside.

One shot on kill

What way are you supporting the rifle when firing.

Cass

5" at 300 yards. That's something you could definitely live with. No adjusting, just a manageable amount of hold.

4200fps wrote: »

Would the GMX be a better balanced round vs lead core rounds as the GMX is 95% pure copper with a polymer tip? Might sound like a stupid question but I'm wondering what your opinion would be?

I could not tell you. The GMX (80gr) were superformance and based on experience they are always a little "off" compared to slower rounds. I wouldn't mind trying some "standard" GMX rounds, but not in the Superformance variety.

Last thing out of all the 243 rounds I used so far when you shake the GMX round you cant feel the powder budge inside as they must be jammed packed with powder where others you wound feel the powder move about inside.

When loading for F-class it was considered a problem. If the propellant can sit loose inside the case it sits "sloped" and some believe this causes inconsistent burning of the propellant. Now this was academic as you needed the fill of the case to attain the speeds necessary to reach 1,000 yards.

When choosing a bullet i look at the twist rate and bullet. So mine is 1:10 so i look at the medium to heavy bullets. However i've found that bullet length is sometimes more important than bullet weight. The heavier a bullet the longer it must be as the diameter (caliber) must remain the same. Therefore the bearing surface that runs the lands & grooves is longer. This effects the amount of friction.

The weight is also considered. You don't want a light bullet in a fast twist rate. The RPM of the bullet would exceed the maximum to maintain stable flight. Now that's a lot of technical stuff, but it takes moments to decide.

I knew going in i wanted a heavy bullet, and i like the B/T over HP or S/P. So this narrowed me choice. I then choose which one suits my wants, and then which works best in the rifle. I honestly cannot see myself going for another round as this works so well.

One shot on kill wrote:

What way are you supporting the rifle when firing.

I think that's for 4200fps, but if not. I was using a front rest, and rear bag to obtain the best stable platform for shooting. I did not want the results to be flukes from using a bipod and hold. So even though i wouldn't be shooting with a rest and rear bag out in the field i now know the rifle can do great groups so it's up to me to do my bit.

4200fps

I placed a hat underneath the rear of the stock when shooting off the bi-pod to keep it steady. Thanks for your reply. bullet length makes sense too. I see you can get race bullets I think that are really long

Cass

It's all down to the bearing surface. I've seen 155 bullets lined up and the Berger may be quite a bit longer than the SMK, but when you compare bearing surfaces there is usually very little between them. So all the extra length is from the Ogive on.

silverfox1

Do any of you know where I could get sako 90 grain soft point. I'd like to give them a try.

Cass

I haven't seen Sako ammo in a while, and the last time i did it was only in 6.5x55 cal. Dirty ammo, but good.

Sorry i couldn't be more helpful.

One shot on kill

Thanks cass the question was actually for you. I was just wondering what way your supporting it. Especially when she is putting them in the same hole.
Thanks.

Cass

When testing ammo i always give the rifle the best possible opportunity to perform at it's best. This means rock solid front rest, and rear bag. In necessary a rifle/gun clamp (like the ones used for cleaning).

However in the field it's a bipod or gate/post and free hold on the rear of the stock. I load the bipod and take the shot. I know the gun is as accurate as it is so it's just up to me to hold it as steady. I also have a "sand sock". Like a sand bag of a front rest it's literally just an old sock, with lining and filled with sand then tied shut. It's soft, malleable yet takes the shape of the fore end of the rifle when i want to shoot of a gate, post or other item used for support.

As for free hand shots. Lets say i try avoid them where possible. I've not got the best free hand shot. After 80 - 100 yards i'm lost.

silverfox1

Cass wrote: »

As for free hand shots. Lets say i try avoid them where possible. I've not got the best free hand shot. After 80 - 100 yards i'm lost.

I think not many of us do anymore due to our tendency to add mods and bipods and buy heavy barrelled rifles.
You'd be surprised how quick it comes to you once you leave the bipod at home.

Cass

Would you believe i rarely have the bipod on the rifle. At first it was because when i did, and then attached the sling to the bipod it was uncomfortable on my shoulder, but when i realised the difference in balance without the bipod (3/4 lb) i left it off.

Now i bring it in the jeep as there are a few places where i know the shot will most likely be prone so i attach it before going into these permissions, but 90% of the time it's off.


With just the mod on the rifle is perfectly balanced.

silverfox1

Cass wrote: »

Would you believe i rarely have the bipod on the rifle. At first it was because when i did, and then attached the sling to the bipod it was uncomfortable on my shoulder, but when i realised the difference in balance without the bipod (3/4 lb) i left it off.

Now i bring it in the jeep as there are a few places where i know the shot will most likely be prone so i attach it before going into these permissions, but 90% of the time it's off.


With just the mod on the rifle is perfectly balanced.

I stand corrected
A couple of years back I got fed up of the bipod getting caught in my hood and dragging out of me so I left it off.
Now I only use it when I'm foxing and shots are more likely to be further out.

Cass

silverfox1 wrote: »

I stand corrected

It's okay, you ca sit back down.

Not correcting you at all lad. You're dead right. The bipod can make a world of difference especially with people's fondness for heavier barreled rifles. If i take the bipod AND mod off it feels like i could hold the rifle all day. I'd say other than the actual weight there is a mental aspect. IOW i assume it'll be heavier with all the gear on so it feels more than it actually is.

Mauser 308

Cass wrote: »

Just back from the range and sorted.

I tried a few Hornady 75gr HP. They were adequate and acted much like the SST. No drp between 100 to 200 yards. Groups were between 0.5 & 1 moa at both distances. I would get a nice clover leaf then one or two outside the group.

I moved onto the Federal 95gr Nosler BT. Unbelievable accuracy and repeatability. They were one holing at 100 and clover leafing at 200. My first shot at 200 was smack, bang in the middle of the 1" bull and the others dead on for elevation just a fraction to the right (that could be me). The drop between 100 and 200 was just an inch so i have a nice point blank range.

So all sorted. Just need to exchange the rest of the Hornady for the Federal and i'm set for the season.


Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. All very helpful.

Cass do you mind me asking where you got the 95g Federal ?

TriggerPL

Mauser 308 wrote: »

Cass do you mind me asking where you got the 95g Federal ?

+1 cheers

Cass

Sean Harding in Stakelums. He only has about 7 boxes left as I took 5, but he has some left and no bother getting more in.

TriggerPL

Is he far from Portlaoise buddy ,

One shot on kill

From Kildare town I'd be in Stakelums in just under 1 hour so he would be just 35-40 mins from Portlaoise. Now that's from the motorway turn for port.

TriggerPL

One shot on kill wrote: »

From Kildare town I'd be in Stakelums in just under 1 hour so he would be just 35-40 mins from Portlaoise. Now that's from the motorway turn for port.

Il race ya lad !! See who get the last few boxes , cheers for that !

One shot on kill

No bother. I think he is fairly cheap on the hornady aswell. Well compared to my local guy anyway.

Cass

One shot on kill wrote: »

From Kildare town I'd be in Stakelums in just under 1 hour so he would be just 35-40 mins from Portlaoise. Now that's from the motorway turn for port.

About 45 minutes down the M8. He is on racecourse park, nenagh road, thurles.

TriggerPL wrote: »

Il race ya lad !! See who get the last few boxes , cheers for that !

Ill ring him in the morning and ask him to hold the remaining boxes for me. I win.