The future at Second Row, who is it?

athtrasna

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Really depends what team you're talking about

Different man v Canada, but against the USA (and I know the game was late and I may not have quite been sober)...he missed balls in the lineout, thrown at him by Strauss, the hooker he is most familiar with.

JagerScout

I honestly don't think anything substantial can be taken from the summer tests... waste of time for everyone involved.

Superbus

JagerScout wrote: »

I honestly don't think anything substantial can be taken from the summer tests... waste of time for everyone involved.

Yeah we know all about the Lions, but what about Irish rugby?

JagerScout

irish rugby included, did you see the "tests"

Tox56

athtrasna wrote: »

Different man v Canada, but against the USA (and I know the game was late and I may not have quite been sober)...he missed balls in the lineout, thrown at him by Strauss, the hooker he is most familiar with.

He had a bad game, Strauss had a bad game, it happens. His ability in the lineout is the last thing I would be criticising him for.

Tox56

Teferi wrote: »

Mahatma in bitter kick at Leinster player shocker.

I don't know if people take the piss because of his height or what, but he has to be one of the most constantly derided players out there for no particular reason. He's a solid pro for Leinster and had an otherwise pretty standard career, players like Heaslip/Earls who also come in for a lot of criticism are front line internationals, Toner has maybe a handful of appearances for Ireland.

People aren't demanding him a place in the Irish team (as evidenced by this thread) and even his own supporters freely acknowledge his flaws, yet bizarrely (especially outside this forum) he seems to get a very hard time.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't know if people take the piss because of his height or what, but he has to be one of the most constantly derided players out there for no particular reason. He's a solid pro for Leinster and had an otherwise pretty standard career, players like Heaslip/Earls who also come in for a lot of criticism are front line internationals, Toner has maybe a handful of appearances for Ireland.

People aren't demanding him a place in the Irish team (as evidenced by this thread) and even his own supporters freely acknowledge his flaws, yet bizarrely (especially outside this forum) he seems to get a very hard time.

Toner had a great season for Leinster.

The reason he gets a hard time is because in fairness when he's off the boil he's complete muck. Over the past few seasons that has happened.

In fairness to the chap he's such a level headed bloke, and knows where his technique is letting him down. He's come on leaps and bounds and to be honest he's just sniffing blood now that Leo is on his way out. People seem to have plans for Roux and McCarthy, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Toner become the 1st name on our name sheet in the next few seasons has he gets a few more dogged games under his belt.

jamiedav2011

.ak wrote: »

Toner had a great season for Leinster.

The reason he gets a hard time is because in fairness when he's off the boil he's complete muck. Over the past few seasons that has happened.

In fairness to the chap he's such a level headed bloke, and knows where his technique is letting him down. He's come on leaps and bounds and to be honest he's just sniffing blood now that Leo is on his way out. People seem to have plans for Roux and McCarthy, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Toner become the 1st name on our name sheet in the next few seasons has he gets a few more dogged games under his belt.

Thought Toner had an excellent end of year for us last year.

As you mentioned, nobody is expecting him to become POC overnight, and he's medium HEC level, but when he's good, he's good.

Had a very good Amlin and Rabo final too.

I'd like to see where anyone said he was 'better than Richie Gray', though he has taken Richie on and beat him in the lineout before.

Think people seem to forget that he is still only 26 and has over 110 Leinster caps.

A good three years younger than Donnacha Ryan, in fact closer to Ian Nagle (1 1/2 years) in age than D. Ryan, for a bit of perspective.

jamiedav2011

athtrasna wrote: »

The lineout was a disaster against the USA and Toner failed to take a fair few of them. He worked well in the loose but the lineout is the key to second row play.

Bizzare to give out about Toner's lineout jumping!

In any case, think you missed what IBF said there. For a % of second rows, lineout jumping is quite a small part of their game.
Damien Browne being the best example of that in Irish circles recently. McCarthy to a lesser extent also.

.ak

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Thought Toner had an excellent end of year for us last year.

As you mentioned, nobody is expecting him to become POC overnight, and he's medium HEC level, but when he's good, he's good.

Had a very good Amlin and Rabo final too.

I'd like to see where anyone said he was 'better than Richie Gray', though he has taken Richie on and beat him in the lineout before.

Think people seem to forget that he is still only 26 and has over 110 Leinster caps.

A good three years younger than Donnacha Ryan, in fact closer to Ian Nagle (1 1/2 years) in age than D. Ryan, for a bit of perspective.

Honestly I'd prefer to have Toner in my team than Gray. When Gray was first rumoured as coming to Leinster I thought it would be a terrible signing. Toner's had Gray in his pocket any game they've played against each other.

JagerScout

The general consensus seems to be Henderson plus someone else.

I'd agree with this but he needs to start playing more lock, I honestly think he could beat out Ryan for that spot next to POC for the RWC if he was given the opportunity and experience by Ulster.

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Teferi in petty jibe at Mahatma shocker...

Do us both a favour and throw me on ignore.

You're already on ignore lad. Your posts are like a car crash though, sometimes I just have to rubberneck.

Anyway, who accused Toner of being better than Richie Gray?

irishbucsfan

Teferi wrote: »

Anyway, who accused Toner of being better than Richie Gray?

Wasn't me! Before someone says it.

Although Toners form at the end of this season, particularly the last couple of games, was better than Gray's on tour. I don't think there's any arguing that.

But Gray has been much better in the past. If Gray returns to form in future there'll be quite a distance between them. He's a long way off from there at the moment.

Beery Eyed

Very strange that some people are picking out Toner as playing poorly on the summer tour. I've never been a major fan of his, but he stood out on tour, particularly in the second game. Strauss had a shocker in the US game. I'm not really sure what happened there, but he was poor. The only thing I would say is that any small changes in timing with lifters & different calls can make a big difference, and once the first couple went astray the confidence in the system can drop rapidly. I wouldn't be pointing the finger at Toner on this occasion though.

And as someone who watched both games live & sober, I'd have to argue that both tests were pretty decent. Competitive for the most part & relatively big & enthusiastic crowds. I think, given the hour they were on at home, some people may have just been a little bit too cranky/worse for wear to enjoy them

JagerScout

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Dave O'Callaghan at Munster, Ben Marshall and Mick Kearney are three I'd tip.

All are quite short for international second rows. And are all sort of tweeners with blindside flanker.

jamiedav2011

JagerScout wrote: »

All are quite short for international second rows. And are all sort of tweeners with blindside flanker.

All 6'5, so I don't agree with that tbh.
For the 6N, we had a 6'6 and a 6'4 SR partnership.

For a TH lock 6'5 is plenty, and each could become a good one of those.

JagerScout

6'5 is short for an international lock.

England: Parling(6'6), Lawes(6'7) and Launchbury(6'6)
Scotland: Gray(6'10), Hamilton(6'8) and Kellock(6'8)
Wales: Jones(6'6), Davies(6'6) and Evans(6'8)
New Zealand: Whitelock(6'8), Retallick(6'8) and Romano(6'6)
South Africa: Etzebeth(6'8), Kruger(6'6) and van der Merwe(6'6)
Australia: Horwill(6'7), Simmons(6'7) and Douglas(6'7)
Argentina: Albacete(6'6), Carizza(6'7) and Galarza(6'8)
France: Samson(6'6), Flanquart(6'8) and Maestri(6'7)

jamiedav2011

JagerScout wrote: »

6'5 is short for an international lock.

England: Parling(6'6), Lawes(6'7) and Launchbury(6'6)
Scotland: Gray(6'10), Hamilton(6'8) and Kellock(6'8)
Wales: Jones(6'6), Davies(6'6) and Evans(6'8)
New Zealand: Whitelock(6'8), Retallick(6'8) and Romano(6'6)
South Africa: Etzebeth(6'8), Kruger(6'6) and van der Merwe(6'6)
Australia: Horwill(6'7), Simmons(6'7) and Douglas(6'7)
Argentina: Albacete(6'6), Carizza(6'7) and Galarza(6'8)
France: Samson(6'6), Flanquart(6'8) and Maestri(6'7)

Again, depending on what you're looking for it's not. They're three of the most talented young SRs we have in the country. To discount all three for not being an inch bigger is frankly stupid.

And of course Brad Thorn.

I am pie

JagerScout wrote: »

6'5 is short for an international lock.

England: Parling(6'6), Lawes(6'7) and Launchbury(6'6)
Scotland: Gray(6'10), Hamilton(6'8) and Kellock(6'8)
Wales: Jones(6'6), Davies(6'6) and Evans(6'8)
New Zealand: Whitelock(6'8), Retallick(6'8) and Romano(6'6)
South Africa: Etzebeth(6'8), Kruger(6'6) and van der Merwe(6'6)
Australia: Horwill(6'7), Simmons(6'7) and Douglas(6'7)
Argentina: Albacete(6'6), Carizza(6'7) and Galarza(6'8)
France: Samson(6'6), Flanquart(6'8) and Maestri(6'7)

We´re talking about one inch here!...a good lift and good technique reduces the importance of that 1" too not much at all.

JagerScout

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

And of course Brad Thorn.

Ah yes, pick the outlier.

Brad Thorn is a once in a generation player, who was short for his position. I'm not saying it can't be overcome but all three players are short for modern international locks.

I am pie wrote: »

We´re talking about one inch here!...a good lift and good technique reduces the importance of that 1" too not much at all.

Seems odd then that almost every top international team uses locks 6'6 and greater. I'm not saying it can't be overcome but all three players are short for modern international locks.

Tox56

JagerScout wrote: »

Ah yes, pick the outlier.

Brad Thorn is a once in a generation player, who was short for his position. I'm not saying it can't be overcome but all three players are short for modern international locks.




Seems odd then that almost every top international team uses locks 6'6 and greater. I'm not saying it can't be overcome but all three players are short for modern international locks.

What relevance does it have then? It's easily possible teams bump up players' statistics, and even if they don't I really don't see how this one inch the difference between "making it" or not. The only time height is useful is at the lineout, you have excellent lineout exponents at 6'4 like McLaughlin, it's about the spring and how quickly you can get in the air, if you have that at 6'5 you're tall enough.

JagerScout

basically every top level international second row is 198cm+ that must just be a coincidence..

again i'm not saying those guys arent talented players but they would be short for international locks.

HigginsJ

Long term Henderson & Dave O'Callaghan could be the pairing. Donncha Ryan can be a leader for the next 4 years in the 2nd row

Morf

JagerScout wrote: »

6'5 is short for an international lock.

England: Parling(6'6), Lawes(6'7) and Launchbury(6'6)
Scotland: Gray(6'10), Hamilton(6'8) and Kellock(6'8)
Wales: Jones(6'6), Davies(6'6) and Evans(6'8)
New Zealand: Whitelock(6'8), Retallick(6'8) and Romano(6'6)
South Africa: Etzebeth(6'8), Kruger(6'6) and van der Merwe(6'6)
Australia: Horwill(6'7), Simmons(6'7) and Douglas(6'7)
Argentina: Albacete(6'6), Carizza(6'7) and Galarza(6'8)
France: Samson(6'6), Flanquart(6'8) and Maestri(6'7)

Alun Wyn Jones is 6'5".

Quin_Dub

Any thought on the two Ruddocks?

Ciaran is officially a 2nd row but seems to have dropped off the Leinster radar a lot...

Rhys though, I personally think he'd be better as a 2nd row - just a bit short of pace for Top-line back-row but as a 2nd row he could be a very good player indeed...

Thoughts?

Teferi

Ciaran Ruddock is only playing for Mary's now isn't he?

Hagz

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Any thought on the two Ruddocks?

Ciaran is officially a 2nd row but seems to have dropped off the Leinster radar a lot...

Ciaran has left Leinster and is working in FFS as a personal trainer.

Morf

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Any thought on the two Ruddocks?

Ciaran is officially a 2nd row but seems to have dropped off the Leinster radar a lot...

Rhys though, I personally think he'd be better as a 2nd row - just a bit short of pace for Top-line back-row but as a 2nd row he could be a very good player indeed...

Thoughts?

He's only 6'3" so very, very short for a 2nd row. Great prospect at 6 though. Has really pushed on this season.

JagerScout

Rhys is way too short to be a second row...

Alyn Wyn Jones is 6'5 alright my mistake, he is also a sick beast weight wise.

Pretty rare to see a 6'5 120kg lock.

Mahatma Geansai

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wasn't me! Before someone says it.

You didn't explicitly say he was better, but you agreed that Gray has been no better than Toner. See here.

You weren't the only one to make the comparison though...

Spank_Inferno wasn't sure that Gray is better than Toner. Lologram was the first to outright suggest that Toner is a better player. Ugo Monye... agreed that Toner is probably a better player. Lastly, Podge_IRL thought Toner has been in better form than the tall blonde guy hoping to get his first Lion cap on Saturday.

And there we have it folks, there are at least 5 posters on this forum who think that Devin Toner is as good as - or better than - British and Irish Lion Richie Gray.