The future at Second Row, who is it?

JagerScout

Below is a lost of almost every Irish eligible second row. Clearly the current second row partnership is obvious for the national team.

However soon some of the most experienced players at this position will no longer be available for selection. Combined with the imminent departure of Johann Muller at Ulster, large question marks are emerging as to who is the future at second row, both for the provinces and the national team.

At Connacht, the departure of Mike McCarthy was greeted with the signing of both the NIQ'd Craig Clarke and the IQ'd Aly Muldowney combined with the veteran Michael Swift they probably have their top 3 rotation sorted for the short term. Mick Kearney and Andrew Browne are sort of tweeners and have played both lock and flanker.
Danny Qualter, Conor Kindregan, Sean O'Brien and Ultan Dillane are younger guys who haven't made an impact yet.

At Munster, the top three of Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell and Donnacha Ryan is well established if aging. Billy Holland has provided decent cover but is far from being a long term option. Dave Foley and Ian Nagle are talked about as potential future internationals but have made little impact to date for Munster. Dave O'Callaghan is a tweener and is more likely to end up at flanker but could have a future at second row.
Darren O'Shea, Sean McCarthy and John Madigan are younger guys who haven't made an impact yet.

At Leinster, Leo Cullen is probably in his final season, Mike McCarthy has been signed up at is expected to be a feature for Leinster for the span of his contract. Behind that the Devin Toner experiment rumbles on with varying degrees of success. Then there is the trio of Quinn Roux, Ben Marshall and Tom Denton, all have had various impacts so far for Leinster but it's hard to know if any can be top level players.
Gavin Thornbury, Tadhg Beirne and Ross Molony are younger guys who haven't made an impact yet.

At Ulster, Johann Muller is the clear leader but his career at Ulster ends next summer. Lewis Stevenson and Dan Touhy give Ulster a solid three here. Behind him Neil McComb is a similar player to Billy Holland for Munster and offers good depth. The real question is Ian Henderson's future, regarded by most to be the most talented irish lock since POC he has been playing mostly flanker for Ulster, how long will this continue?
James Simpson, Alan O'Connor and John Donnan are younger guys who haven't made an impact yet.

The exiles, this group is mostly made up of unproven players who have went abroad to try and make it professionally. The combo of Tom Hayes, Damian Browne and Andre Farley are journeymen who will finish their solid careers abroad. Eoin Sheriff, Mark Flanagan, James Sandford and Brian Hayes are currently trying to make an impact at their various clubs. Finally, Ryan Caldwell is the only viable second row abroad who is good enough right now for the provinces and could possible earn another Irish cap. But he is signed up with Bath for at least the next season and possibly more. Dave Gannon current whereabouts are unknown and Dave Nolan is trying to regain health this preseason with Connacht but is contract less.

30 and Over
Leo Cullen(35) - 6'6
Michael Swift(35) - 6'5
Donnacha O'Callaghan(34) - 6'6
Paul O'Connell(33) - 6'6
Mike McCarthy(31) - 6'4
Aly Muldowney(30) - 6'5
Neil McComb(30) - 6'7

Under 30
Donnacha Ryan(29) - 6'6
Lewis Stevenson(29) - 6'7
Dan Touhy(28) - 6'6
Billy Holland(27) - 6'4
Devin Toner(27) - 6'10
Andrew Browne(26) - 6'5
Dave Foley(25) - 6'6
Tom Denton(25) - 6'6
Ian Nagle(24) - 6'6
Ben Marshall(23) - 6'5
Dave O'Callaghan(23) - 6'5
Mick Kearney(22) - 6'5
Ian Henderson(21) - 6'6
Danny Qualter(21) - 6'6

Academy Players
James Simpson(22) - 6'6
Tadhg Beirne(21) - 6'6
Conor Kindregan(21) - 6'5
Alan O'Connor(20) - 6'5
Sean McCarthy(20) - 6'6
Darren O'Shea(20) - 6'9
Ultan Dillane(20) - 6'6
John Donnan(20) - 6'6
Gavin Thornbury(19) - 6'8
Ross Molony(19) - 6'6
John Madigan(19) - 6'6
Sean O'Brien(19) - 6'5

Exiled
Andrew Farley(33) - 6'6
Damian Browne(33) - 6'5
Tom Hayes(33) - 6'4 - Exeter
Dave Gannon(30) - 6'6 - ??
Ryan Caldwell(29) - 6'7 - Bath
Eoin Sheriff(25) - 6'5 - Saracens
Dave Nolan(25) - 6'6 - ??
Mark Flanagan(24) - 6'7 - Pro D2 (Stade Montois)
James Sandford(24) - 6'6 - Cornish Pirates
Brian Hayes(22) - 6'5 - Pro D2 (Aurillac)

Bold = full irish cap

bilston

I haven't seen him play but there is some positive chat up here in Ulster about a lad called Russell Blair, I think he is only 18 or 19, because Ulster are always slow to announce their Academy I don't even know if he is in it but from what Ove read about him he should be in it. He is meant to be enormous. Maybe a name to remember anyway.

JagerScout

bilston wrote: »

I haven't seen him play but there is some positive chat up here in Ulster about a lad called Russell Blair, I think he is only 18 or 19, because Ulster are always slow to announce their Academy I don't even know if he is in it but from what Ove read about him he should be in it. He is meant to be enormous. Maybe a name to remember anyway.

I've heard of him, but until Ulster announce their academy i'm reluctant to add him to the list.

.ak

Thornbury is someone I've got high hopes for. Not because of his size (He's massive), or because of his athleticism (he's very fit/mobile), but because of his work rate and aggressiveness. Those are things you just can't buy. He's a big unit of a lock and yet gets around the park, especially at ruck time. He's already good at the core fundamentals of lock work, which some of the other academy players are still trying to learn.

LeeroyJones

Immediate Term
4. Ryan
5. POC
Come World Cup
4. Henderson
5. POC
Post World Cup/Post POC
4. Henderson
5. Ryan

That's how I'd like it to work itself out this side of the WC in particular. After which Marshall may have kicked on at Leinster among others.

awec

I think it'll be Henderson + another.

.ak

awec wrote: »

I think it'll be Henderson + another.

Really depends on how he's used at Ulster though isn't it? Seems to be playing more at 6 than anything else.

Would love to see him carry on as a lock tho.

LuckyLloyd

Ryan, McCarthy, Tuohy and O'Connell should all get us through the next World Cup. By that stage, the picture for the following four years should be clearer.

BGozIE

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Immediate Term
4. Ryan
5. POC
Come World Cup
4. Henderson
5. POC
Post World Cup/Post POC
4. Henderson
5. Ryan

That's how I'd like it to work itself out this side of the WC in particular. After which Marshall may have kicked on at Leinster among others.

Very much agree with that breakdown, and would be very happy to see it as that.

I think (hopefully) Henderson will bulk up abit...I'm sure he will, much like POC did as he got older.

Lock is one of the positions where the player is like a fine wine, gets better with age

rockbeast

.ak wrote: »

Thornbury is someone I've got high hopes for. Not because of his size (He's massive), or because of his athleticism (he's very fit/mobile), but because of his work rate and aggressiveness. Those are things you just can't buy. He's a big unit of a lock and yet gets around the park, especially at ruck time. He's already good at the core fundamentals of lock work, which some of the other academy players are still trying to learn.

Thornberry will be Leinster captain someday. I think one of my first posts said this, I'll let you check! Barring injury, Bod forbid, he should start getting R12 games in the next 6N window and be a starter by 2015.

My personal opinion but I'm sure of this and quote me in 2 years fail or no-fail!:cool::cool::cool::cool:

Hagz

I expect POC and Ryan will see us through to the world cup. After that I'd say we're looking at a combination of Ryan and Tuohy until/unless Henderson gets some game-time in the row with Ulster, at which point he'll likely be the better option alongside Ryan. I'm quite hopeful that Tadgh Beirne will slowly emerge after the departure of Leo Cullen.

irishbucsfan

Tadhg Berne is my favourite of the young lads at the moment. If he can run a lineout I'd love to see him play beside Henderson in 4 years

leftleg

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Immediate Term
4. Ryan
5. POC
Come World Cup
4. Henderson
5. POC
Post World Cup/Post POC
4. Henderson
5. Ryan

That's how I'd like it to work itself out this side of the WC in particular. After which Marshall may have kicked on at Leinster among others.

Have you forgotten about McCarthy??

BGozIE

leftleg wrote: »

Have you forgotten about McCarthy??

I would suggest he may be the bench option. But in saying that POC and McCarthy could be an alternative to Ryan + POC. A good one at that (possibly better)

Fireball07

Long-term (in the post-POC world), I do think it will be Henderson + somebody else. His performances for the U-20s were POC-esque, and since he's burst onto the club & international scene, he's looked like Ferris v.2. But considering the back row strength, I think his long-term future lies in the 2nd row.


And whether he's partnered by Ryan or Tuohy or Nagle or Marshall or someone like Beirne/Thornbury, I think he'll be the mainstay.

In the immediate future, it's POC + somebody else.

rockbeast

Fireball07 wrote: »

Long-term (in the post-POC world), I do think it will be Henderson + somebody else. His performances for the U-20s were POC-esque, and since he's burst onto the club & international scene, he's looked like Ferris v.2. But considering the back row strength, I think his long-term future lies in the 2nd row.


And whether he's partnered by Ryan or Tuohy or Nagle or Marshall or someone like Beirne/Thornbury, I think he'll be the mainstay.

In the immediate future, it's POC + somebody else.

Post a-POC-alyptic, surely?:D:D

I am pie

If Ferris can get himself back and fit post his 6 month recuperation contract am hoping he can back into the fold for Ulster and release Henderson to play lock. He is playing at 6 for Ulster out of necessity at the moment I believe, a fit Ferris might give him a run.

LeeroyJones

leftleg wrote: »

Have you forgotten about McCarthy??

No, POC and Ryan are superior to him IMO and Henderson has fantastic potential. I would include McCarthy in 6 Nations squads etc but not in the matchday 23 unless there are injuries.

bilston

I am pie wrote: »

a fit Ferris might give him a run.

That's an understatement!

TheKeenMachine

Henderson is fantastically talented IMO. Joe is well known for giving young players a chance to prove themselves and I reckon we'll be seeing Iain in the row sooner rather than later.

jamiedav2011

Henderson will obviously be a starter for years to come likely.

We've some serious athletic talent that needs to be moulded to go along with that.

Dave O'Callaghan at Munster, Ben Marshall and Mick Kearney are three I'd tip.

First two in particular look like, given a run of games, they could really make a big impression this year.

I'm on record as being a huge fan of Marshall, reckon he got a bit of a tough deal in comparison to Roux.

I am pie

bilston wrote: »

That's an understatement!

Sorry, what I mean is that a fit Ferris playing at 6 will facilitate giving him a chance at a run at lock for Ulste....too economic with my words there.

CIARAN_BOYLE

LeeroyJones wrote: »

No, POC and Ryan are superior to him IMO and Henderson has fantastic potential. I would include McCarthy in 6 Nations squads etc but not in the matchday 23 unless there are injuries.

Both better players individually but POC and Ryan are both best as LH locks. POC with McCarthy might be a better combination.

Mahatma Geansai

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Both better players individually but POC and Ryan are both best as LH locks. POC with McCarthy might be a better combination.

We'll have to see how McCarthy goes at Leinster first. He was very good in the Autumn, but he has gone seriously off the boil since. POC operates brilliantly at both 4 and 5 though. He might be primarily be a LH lock, but he is still a better TH lock than McCarthy.

No love for Devin "Better than Richie Gray" Toner in this thread? :eek:

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

No love for Devin "Better than Richie Gray" Toner in this thread? :eek:

Mahatma in bitter kick at Leinster player shocker.

Mahatma Geansai

Teferi wrote: »

Mahatma in bitter kick at Leinster player shocker.

Teferi in petty jibe at Mahatma shocker...

Do us both a favour and throw me on ignore.

athtrasna

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

No love for Devin "Better than Richie Gray" Toner in this thread? :eek:

Summer tour, v USA. Almost enough said. Toner is tall, a bit like Mushy is big. That doesn't automatically make a great player. He was better v Canada, but that wouldn't have been hard.

irishbucsfan

athtrasna wrote: »

Summer tour, v USA. Almost enough said. Toner is tall, a bit like Mushy is big. That doesn't automatically make a great player. He was better v Canada, but that wouldn't have been hard.

Amlin Cup Final.

Hype710

Toner was a standout on the Summer tour, odd comment to make. Don't think he'll make the 23 with POC there, but if POC's out I'd slot Toner straight in to manage the line out. Ryan has proven illsuited to the role. Hope to see Henderson bench in the autumn, ideal cover for lock/blindside.

athtrasna

Hype710 wrote: »

Toner was a standout on the Summer tour, odd comment to make. Don't think he'll make the 23 with POC there, but if POC's out I'd slot Toner straight in to manage the line out. Ryan has proven illsuited to the role. Hope to see Henderson bench in the autumn, ideal cover for lock/blindside.

The lineout was a disaster against the USA and Toner failed to take a fair few of them. He worked well in the loose but the lineout is the key to second row play.

irishbucsfan

athtrasna wrote: »

The lineout was a disaster against the USA and Toner failed to take a fair few of them. He worked well in the loose but the lineout is the key to second row play.

Really depends what team you're talking about

athtrasna

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Really depends what team you're talking about

Different man v Canada, but against the USA (and I know the game was late and I may not have quite been sober)...he missed balls in the lineout, thrown at him by Strauss, the hooker he is most familiar with.

JagerScout

I honestly don't think anything substantial can be taken from the summer tests... waste of time for everyone involved.

Superbus

JagerScout wrote: »

I honestly don't think anything substantial can be taken from the summer tests... waste of time for everyone involved.

Yeah we know all about the Lions, but what about Irish rugby?

JagerScout

irish rugby included, did you see the "tests"

Tox56

athtrasna wrote: »

Different man v Canada, but against the USA (and I know the game was late and I may not have quite been sober)...he missed balls in the lineout, thrown at him by Strauss, the hooker he is most familiar with.

He had a bad game, Strauss had a bad game, it happens. His ability in the lineout is the last thing I would be criticising him for.

Tox56

Teferi wrote: »

Mahatma in bitter kick at Leinster player shocker.

I don't know if people take the piss because of his height or what, but he has to be one of the most constantly derided players out there for no particular reason. He's a solid pro for Leinster and had an otherwise pretty standard career, players like Heaslip/Earls who also come in for a lot of criticism are front line internationals, Toner has maybe a handful of appearances for Ireland.

People aren't demanding him a place in the Irish team (as evidenced by this thread) and even his own supporters freely acknowledge his flaws, yet bizarrely (especially outside this forum) he seems to get a very hard time.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't know if people take the piss because of his height or what, but he has to be one of the most constantly derided players out there for no particular reason. He's a solid pro for Leinster and had an otherwise pretty standard career, players like Heaslip/Earls who also come in for a lot of criticism are front line internationals, Toner has maybe a handful of appearances for Ireland.

People aren't demanding him a place in the Irish team (as evidenced by this thread) and even his own supporters freely acknowledge his flaws, yet bizarrely (especially outside this forum) he seems to get a very hard time.

Toner had a great season for Leinster.

The reason he gets a hard time is because in fairness when he's off the boil he's complete muck. Over the past few seasons that has happened.

In fairness to the chap he's such a level headed bloke, and knows where his technique is letting him down. He's come on leaps and bounds and to be honest he's just sniffing blood now that Leo is on his way out. People seem to have plans for Roux and McCarthy, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Toner become the 1st name on our name sheet in the next few seasons has he gets a few more dogged games under his belt.

jamiedav2011

.ak wrote: »

Toner had a great season for Leinster.

The reason he gets a hard time is because in fairness when he's off the boil he's complete muck. Over the past few seasons that has happened.

In fairness to the chap he's such a level headed bloke, and knows where his technique is letting him down. He's come on leaps and bounds and to be honest he's just sniffing blood now that Leo is on his way out. People seem to have plans for Roux and McCarthy, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Toner become the 1st name on our name sheet in the next few seasons has he gets a few more dogged games under his belt.

Thought Toner had an excellent end of year for us last year.

As you mentioned, nobody is expecting him to become POC overnight, and he's medium HEC level, but when he's good, he's good.

Had a very good Amlin and Rabo final too.

I'd like to see where anyone said he was 'better than Richie Gray', though he has taken Richie on and beat him in the lineout before.

Think people seem to forget that he is still only 26 and has over 110 Leinster caps.

A good three years younger than Donnacha Ryan, in fact closer to Ian Nagle (1 1/2 years) in age than D. Ryan, for a bit of perspective.

jamiedav2011

athtrasna wrote: »

The lineout was a disaster against the USA and Toner failed to take a fair few of them. He worked well in the loose but the lineout is the key to second row play.

Bizzare to give out about Toner's lineout jumping!

In any case, think you missed what IBF said there. For a % of second rows, lineout jumping is quite a small part of their game.
Damien Browne being the best example of that in Irish circles recently. McCarthy to a lesser extent also.

.ak

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Thought Toner had an excellent end of year for us last year.

As you mentioned, nobody is expecting him to become POC overnight, and he's medium HEC level, but when he's good, he's good.

Had a very good Amlin and Rabo final too.

I'd like to see where anyone said he was 'better than Richie Gray', though he has taken Richie on and beat him in the lineout before.

Think people seem to forget that he is still only 26 and has over 110 Leinster caps.

A good three years younger than Donnacha Ryan, in fact closer to Ian Nagle (1 1/2 years) in age than D. Ryan, for a bit of perspective.

Honestly I'd prefer to have Toner in my team than Gray. When Gray was first rumoured as coming to Leinster I thought it would be a terrible signing. Toner's had Gray in his pocket any game they've played against each other.

JagerScout

The general consensus seems to be Henderson plus someone else.

I'd agree with this but he needs to start playing more lock, I honestly think he could beat out Ryan for that spot next to POC for the RWC if he was given the opportunity and experience by Ulster.

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Teferi in petty jibe at Mahatma shocker...

Do us both a favour and throw me on ignore.

You're already on ignore lad. Your posts are like a car crash though, sometimes I just have to rubberneck.

Anyway, who accused Toner of being better than Richie Gray?

irishbucsfan

Teferi wrote: »

Anyway, who accused Toner of being better than Richie Gray?

Wasn't me! Before someone says it.

Although Toners form at the end of this season, particularly the last couple of games, was better than Gray's on tour. I don't think there's any arguing that.

But Gray has been much better in the past. If Gray returns to form in future there'll be quite a distance between them. He's a long way off from there at the moment.

Beery Eyed

Very strange that some people are picking out Toner as playing poorly on the summer tour. I've never been a major fan of his, but he stood out on tour, particularly in the second game. Strauss had a shocker in the US game. I'm not really sure what happened there, but he was poor. The only thing I would say is that any small changes in timing with lifters & different calls can make a big difference, and once the first couple went astray the confidence in the system can drop rapidly. I wouldn't be pointing the finger at Toner on this occasion though.

And as someone who watched both games live & sober, I'd have to argue that both tests were pretty decent. Competitive for the most part & relatively big & enthusiastic crowds. I think, given the hour they were on at home, some people may have just been a little bit too cranky/worse for wear to enjoy them

JagerScout

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Dave O'Callaghan at Munster, Ben Marshall and Mick Kearney are three I'd tip.

All are quite short for international second rows. And are all sort of tweeners with blindside flanker.

jamiedav2011

JagerScout wrote: »

All are quite short for international second rows. And are all sort of tweeners with blindside flanker.

All 6'5, so I don't agree with that tbh.
For the 6N, we had a 6'6 and a 6'4 SR partnership.

For a TH lock 6'5 is plenty, and each could become a good one of those.

JagerScout

6'5 is short for an international lock.

England: Parling(6'6), Lawes(6'7) and Launchbury(6'6)
Scotland: Gray(6'10), Hamilton(6'8) and Kellock(6'8)
Wales: Jones(6'6), Davies(6'6) and Evans(6'8)
New Zealand: Whitelock(6'8), Retallick(6'8) and Romano(6'6)
South Africa: Etzebeth(6'8), Kruger(6'6) and van der Merwe(6'6)
Australia: Horwill(6'7), Simmons(6'7) and Douglas(6'7)
Argentina: Albacete(6'6), Carizza(6'7) and Galarza(6'8)
France: Samson(6'6), Flanquart(6'8) and Maestri(6'7)

jamiedav2011

JagerScout wrote: »

6'5 is short for an international lock.

England: Parling(6'6), Lawes(6'7) and Launchbury(6'6)
Scotland: Gray(6'10), Hamilton(6'8) and Kellock(6'8)
Wales: Jones(6'6), Davies(6'6) and Evans(6'8)
New Zealand: Whitelock(6'8), Retallick(6'8) and Romano(6'6)
South Africa: Etzebeth(6'8), Kruger(6'6) and van der Merwe(6'6)
Australia: Horwill(6'7), Simmons(6'7) and Douglas(6'7)
Argentina: Albacete(6'6), Carizza(6'7) and Galarza(6'8)
France: Samson(6'6), Flanquart(6'8) and Maestri(6'7)

Again, depending on what you're looking for it's not. They're three of the most talented young SRs we have in the country. To discount all three for not being an inch bigger is frankly stupid.

And of course Brad Thorn.

I am pie

JagerScout wrote: »

6'5 is short for an international lock.

England: Parling(6'6), Lawes(6'7) and Launchbury(6'6)
Scotland: Gray(6'10), Hamilton(6'8) and Kellock(6'8)
Wales: Jones(6'6), Davies(6'6) and Evans(6'8)
New Zealand: Whitelock(6'8), Retallick(6'8) and Romano(6'6)
South Africa: Etzebeth(6'8), Kruger(6'6) and van der Merwe(6'6)
Australia: Horwill(6'7), Simmons(6'7) and Douglas(6'7)
Argentina: Albacete(6'6), Carizza(6'7) and Galarza(6'8)
France: Samson(6'6), Flanquart(6'8) and Maestri(6'7)

We´re talking about one inch here!...a good lift and good technique reduces the importance of that 1" too not much at all.

JagerScout

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

And of course Brad Thorn.

Ah yes, pick the outlier.

Brad Thorn is a once in a generation player, who was short for his position. I'm not saying it can't be overcome but all three players are short for modern international locks.

I am pie wrote: »

We´re talking about one inch here!...a good lift and good technique reduces the importance of that 1" too not much at all.

Seems odd then that almost every top international team uses locks 6'6 and greater. I'm not saying it can't be overcome but all three players are short for modern international locks.