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Military coup underway in Egypt

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    #92
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    British fellow on RTÉ News at One with Seán O'Rourke saying that the army basically "played a numbers game" by doing a head count from helicopters and saw the largest demonstrations in living memory and decided they had to make a move and the opposition had the biggest numbers.

    Clearly this is untrue as mass protests never work ....

    Protests had a large effect across Eastern Europe and in Georgia, Ukraine and so on

    Most countries in the ME and N Africa have at least been changing policy since the Arab Spring (obviously apart from the ones in which the family dynasty got all shooty)


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    #93
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    its not a military coup when the army represents the will of the people, actually that sound democratic to me


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    #94
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    its not a military coup when the army represents the will of the people, actually that sound democratic to me

    Without any elections that's a dangerous line of reasoning there in fairness.


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    #95
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Protests had a large effect across Eastern Europe and in Georgia, Ukraine and so on

    Most countries in the ME and N Africa have at least been changing policy since the Arab Spring (obviously apart from the ones in which the family dynasty got all shooty)

    Sorry, Jonny7. It has been established on several After Hours threads that mass protests do not work and never will work so it would be absolutely futile for the Irish people to engage in them. Please don't question this, ever. Like.

    ...


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    #96
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    Without any elections that's a dangerous line of reasoning there in fairness.
    What would you have the people do?

    Wait for his term to end and for the Muslim Brotherhood to cement its power and completely destroy the country or to nip it in the bud by forcing early elections?


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    #97
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    Without any elections that's a dangerous line of reasoning there in fairness.

    elections are only one of many ways to practice democracy


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    #98
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    What would you have the people do?

    Wait for his term to end and for the Muslim Brotherhood to cement its power and completely destroy the country or to nip it in the bud by forcing early elections?

    I think the people were entirely correct and admirable. At the same time, we cannot ignore the reality that Morsi was democratically elected as recently as June 2012. If I were being honest, if Morsi had been a great left-leaning liberal I'd probably condemn the people as an uncouth rabble (ahem!), but seeing as he is a political Islamist who would add to intolerance I think it's a good thing even though he is democratically elected. I suspect many people are similarly hypocritical on democracy in this case.

    My point to Laoch na Móna was that I would have misgivings about ever accepting the line "when the army represents the will of the people". That cultural separation in Ireland between army and politics is a good thing.


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    #99
    MonaPizza
    Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭MonaPizza


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    They wanted democracy and they got it.
    Now they don't like the outcome and don't want to follow the democratic process.
    It is a bit nuts and can only lead to more blood.

    Not quite.
    They wanted democracy and got it.
    The party who got in then subsequently suspended democracy and welshed on all their promises.
    The people decided "fcuk you if you think we're waiting 4 years for you and your stooges to get back in in another election and then conveniently continue to renege on your obligations. That's what goes on in Ireland. GTFO NOW!"


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    #100
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    elections are only one of many ways to practice democracy

    Quite true, but in their absence something else is required in order to support a claim that 'the army represents the will of the people'. As things currently stand, the last election in Egypt was won, as recently as June 2012, by the person whom the army overthrew yesterday. This makes a claim that the coup has a democratic mandate somewhat tricky to support. It also sets an ominous precedent.


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    #101
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    Quite true, but in their absence something else is required in order to support a claim that 'the army represents the will of the people'. As things currently stand, the last election in Egypt was won, as recently as June 2012, by the person whom the army overthrew yesterday. This makes a claim that the coup has a democratic mandate somewhat tricky to support. It also sets an ominous precedent.


    Massive popular protests?


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    #102
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    Massive popular protests?

    Egypt has a population of about 83 million people. I'm not sure how the protests, as large as they were, could constitute a democratic mandate from the majority of that population.


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    #103
    therewillbe
    Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭therewillbe


    Fair Play to them.


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    #104
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    Egypt has a population of about 83 million people. I'm not sure how the protests, as large as they were, could constitute a democratic mandate from the majority of that population.

    I understand that, but the result of these protest is elections will be held and that is a democratic victory. If they had appointed a new government them it would have been a different story


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    #105
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    I understand that, but the result of these protest is elections will be held and that is a democratic victory. If they had appointed a new government them it would have been a different story

    Fair point. Hopefully, they don't postpone these elections as happened with the last one when Mubarak resigned in February 2011 but elections did not happen until June 2012.

    I get the impression, though, that the powers-that-be in Egypt now have substantially more respect for the power of the people after the past two years of protests.


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    #106
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Who people wanted last year needn't be who they want this year.

    Election promises, myths and false images got the Muslim Brotherhood in to power. Once they showed their true colours and made enemies of the entire country, the people got them out of power.

    As for uncouth rabble... the Muslim Brotherhood told its supporters to go out and fight with the anti-Morsi protestors (Who were completely peaceful). Scumbags who'd risk starting a civil war just to hold on to power.


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    #107
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Dostoevsky wrote: »
    Egypt has a population of about 83 million people. I'm not sure how the protests, as large as they were, could constitute a democratic mandate from the majority of that population.
    Only 25 million people voted of which only 13 million voted for Morsi.

    Well over 20 million protested against him and signed a petition for early presidential elections.

    I wouldn't call it anything but democratic.


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    #108
    Highflyer13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Highflyer13


    Bad day for Egypt with 235 civilians and 43 police killed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23705532

    Egypt is a deeply troubled country steamrolling towards imminent civil war such are the divisions there. Sad to say but maybe they would have been better off still ruled by a dictatorship.


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    #109
    NuckingFacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,221 ✭✭✭NuckingFacker


    Highflyer13 wrote: »
    Bad day for Egypt with 235 civilians and 43 police killed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23705532

    Egypt is a deeply troubled country steamrolling towards imminent civil war such are the divisions there. Sad to say but maybe they would have been better off still ruled by a dictatorship.
    Like Iraq and Libya, you mean? I'd quietly agree, but I'd never come out and say it.


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    #110
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Highflyer13 wrote: »
    Bad day for Egypt with 235 civilians and 43 police killed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23705532

    Egypt is a deeply troubled country steamrolling towards imminent civil war such are the divisions there. Sad to say but maybe they would have been better off still ruled by a dictatorship.


    Not really. That just strings out the deaths and keeps them quieter. This may be a violent transition the country has to go through.


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    #111
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    Not really. That just strings out the deaths and keeps them quieter. This may be a violent transition the country has to go through.

    Em, keeps who quieter?

    I must say this moral equivalence from you is not really surprising.
    A democratically elected president overthrown by the military, Yeah!
    235 people shot dead with the possibility of hundreds more by said 'peaceful' military. "Shrugs shoulders"


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    #112
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Em, keeps who quieter?"

    The deaths.


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    #113
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    The deaths.

    The dead keep the dead quiet?


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    #114
    ronan45
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭ronan45


    Good time to see the Pyramids i Reckon, A summer sun holiday wasn't really in the budget this year but i see Falcon are doing killer deals on Egypt packages at the mo :cool:


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    #115
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    The dead keep the dead quiet?


    A military dictatorship, in long term repressive measures, kill as many over a long period and manage to keep such things relatively quiet.


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    #116
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Not really. That just strings out the deaths and keeps them quieter. This may be a violent transition the country has to go through.

    Very, very true.


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    #117
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    A military dictatorship, in long term repressive measures, kill as many over a long period and manage to keep such things relatively quiet.

    How many did Morsi or Mubarak kill in this fashion?


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    #118
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    How many did Morsi or Mubarak kill in this fashion?


    Morsi wasn't as of yet a dictator per se and as mubarrak was in power decades I'd imagine thousands. You're getting to some point, I hope?


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    #119
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    The west will learn how to resolve world issues by watching how the middle east countries work the deplomacy thing.

    Watch and learn.


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    #120
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    old_aussie wrote: »
    The west will learn how to resolve world issues by watching how the middle east countries work the deplomacy thing.

    Watch and learn.


    ...whats that supposed to mean? Or are you going to do the usual post and run job?


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    #121
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Nodin wrote: »
    Morsi wasn't as of yet a dictator per se and as mubarrak was in power decades I'd imagine thousands. You're getting to some point, I hope?

    I think he was getting to the point of "how many did morsi kill" to get and keep the muslim brotherhood in power, not was he was a dictator or not


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