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B&I Lions v Wallabies, Test 2 Match Thread, Sat June 29, 1105am

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    #32
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    If Croft comes on after 60 with SOB for Lydiate and Warburton does that not defeat the whole purpose of O'Brien coming on to run at tiring defences seeing as he'll be the one expected to carry the workload at the breakdown and defensively.


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    #33
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Webbs wrote: »
    And who is going to to the duties in securing possesion?

    It's a very unbalanced back row and it'd be mad to introduce it if the front 5 isn't dominant.

    I would be surprised to see it for long.


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    #34
    dub_skav
    Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    Webbs wrote: »
    And who is going to to the duties in securing possesion?

    AWJ and Heaslip, Cole, BOD? All depends on the plans Gatland has.

    He could bring sob on for either and see how it goes, then introduce Croft if he feels safe in doing so. He has given himself lots of flexibility


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    #35
    Annabella1
    Registered Users Posts: 637 ✭✭✭Annabella1


    I think Gatland is picking players on form
    My only main concern is cover at 2nd row.I would have put Gray there instead of Croft
    can't wait to see SOB..He was brilliant against Oz in the last World Cup!


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    #36
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Absolutely massive pressure on Ben Youngs here. He is far from perfect and I hope he's able for the game plan.

    He's going to need a lot of help from Sexton, who will have to control things more. Last week Phillips was controlling a lot from the base, this week I think Youngs will be more reliant on Sexton for direction. Hopefully they both step up and we are a bit smarter with the use of the ball, particularly in comparison to the first half last week.

    I think that'll be the key difference. I think the pack will be just as good as they were last Saturday, and they'll be able to hold onto the ball just as well. It's just down to how we use it.

    The other big change of course is Joubert and how he looks after the game defensively. It's not like he doesn't have a previous in deciding to ref only one team. Hopefully he'll manage things fairly and we'll be able to take a couple more chances in defense. But in reality it's more important that we limit their opportunities in attack by retaining possession ourselves.

    The losses of Corbisisiero and POC outweigh the additions of Youngs and Bowe in my mind, but if Youngs and Joubert perform there's no reason we can't win this.


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    #37
    d2ww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭d2ww


    For those who may not have seen this, here is excellent video from Green and Gold showing where the Wallabies can attack the Lions set piece.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0FfdJZd2c-E

    If only those so called commentators on Sky could be as insightful.


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    #38
    fisgon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Gatland's last words to his number 6 before the game on Saturday...
    "Don't make me look like an idiot, Lydiate." :)


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    #39
    SlickRic
    Registered Users Posts: 36,133 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    happy enough with the selection tbh.

    Lydiate is obviously there to try to do a number on Genia. Gatland is right to feel that if he is stopped, then Australia will probably stopped, what with JOC at 10.

    Warburton was always going to start, but delighted that SOB will probably get 15/20 minutes. a superb impact sub to have, and believe me, going by what the media have been saying about SOB this tour, it will scare them a little.

    thank fúck we've no Phillips. Youngs, and then Murray, should give far quicker ball to Sexton.

    the main concern is the front 5 IMO. Mako will be a beast in the loose, but he needs to at least give us parity in the scrum. the likes of Heaslip and Parling need to have a stormer in the lineout. without all of this, Youngs could be starved of good ball, and he can be very suspect from slow ball.

    i'm also slightly concerned about the Davies/BOD partnership. let's hope it's a bit more cohesive this week. the dynamic between the 2 just doesn't seem to fit. North and Bowe will have to excel as the battering rams with no Roberts/Tuilagi again, and I'm optimistic that Bowe can do a better job than Cuthbert in that respect.

    Joubert had better be in one of his less fussy moods too. and he had also better leave his home jersey at home.


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    #40
    Leslie91
    Registered Users Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Leslie91


    Love that Phillips has been dropped altogether, that SOB is on the bench and that Tommy is back where he belongs.

    Do not like Cuthbert on bench, that spot should have gone to Zebo or God forbid Maitland.

    Davies v Tuilagi might have been discussed some, interesting there is no mention of Jamie Roberts.

    Evans can feel a little hard done by. He and Gray must look/feel like right plonkers getting overlooked for a lightish #6.


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    #41
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Leslie91 wrote: »
    Love that Phillips has been dropped altogether, that SOB is on the bench and that Tommy is back where he belongs.

    Do not like Cuthbert on bench, that spot should have gone to Zebo or God forbid Maitland.

    Davies v Tuilagi might have been discussed some, interesting there is no mention of Jamie Roberts.

    Evans can feel a little hard done by. He and Gray must look/feel like right plonkers getting overlooked for a lightish #6.

    Gatland said earlier on in the week Roberts wasn't fit. He's hoping he will be for the 3rd game. If BOD makes it through to the last test we'll probably see the '09 combo again.


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    #42
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,173 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    fisgon wrote: »
    Shows a lot of balls by Gatland, this selection. Phillips isn't even in the 23, that sends a serious message, that no-one is immune, no-one's place is safe.

    I see that Croft is covering 2nd row on the bench. Don't really get the attraction of Lydiate, he seems like a very defensive option there, though SOB coming off the bench is a nice option. Nice to see Bowe straight in there, that's some come-back for him this year.

    The Aussie team is not as badly effected by injuries as it would have appeared last week. This is going to be tight. I feel that Australia have had the scales tipped in their favour by the loss of Corbisiero and POC.

    Warburton?


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    #43
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Good team, probably the best available to him. It will be another close match.
    Would be nice to see both Murray & SOB get on.

    Murray first Irish Lion scrum half since 1980.


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    #44
    Crash Bang Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 1,362 ✭✭✭Crash Bang Wall


    Am I deluded in think Tipuric is unlucky not to be in the team. For me he has been awesome anytime Ive seen him, while Warburton has been average. POCs injury has been the final nail in his coffiin where Sam wont now be dropped with no "natural leader" in the pack


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    #45
    andrewdcs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭andrewdcs


    fisgon wrote: »
    Gatland's last words to his number 6 before the game on Saturday...
    "Don't make me look like an idiot, Lydiate." :)

    You've always been my darling, Parling.


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    #46
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Crash Bang Wall wrote: »
    Am I deluded in think Tipuric is unlucky not to be in the team. For me he has been awesome anytime Ive seen him, while Warburton has been average. POCs injury has been the final nail in his coffiin where Sam wont now be dropped with no "natural leader" in the pack

    Personally I think Tipuric is the better 7. However, as some have pointed out, when the squeeze comes on Warburton is the better man in the rucks. Tight margins like that make tight calls... Plus he's the captain, so....

    I'm a big Tipuric fan so I'm obviously biased. Think he's potentially the best 7 in Europe, behind a certain French openside...


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    #47
    andrewdcs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭andrewdcs


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Warburton?

    Nearly, but he's not done anything 'droppable' which is possibly more to do with not being on the ball / having a 9 / 10 like influence on where the watching eyes are.

    Do they have a player cam thing in Rugby? Would love to see the last few Warburton games with that on him. Cut out biases against invisible showponies.

    A large part of his 'role' starts way before and ends way after the whistle blows.

    I do wonder who Sexton will turn to to ask for option! He Kept going to Oconnel last week, but more perhaps for lineout call....


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    #48
    rudiger2.0
    Registered Users Posts: 151 ✭✭rudiger2.0


    d2ww wrote: »
    For those who may not have seen this, here is excellent video from Green and Gold showing where the Wallabies can attack the Lions set piece.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0FfdJZd2c-E

    If only those so called commentators on Sky could be as insightful.


    Some good analysis there. Vunipola got some stick alright for his scrummaging but I thought Cole was more to blame. This video seems to agree.

    One major problem with it, IMO, is that Pollock allowed the Aussies to hit early almost every single scrum. He suggests the lions were afraid of an early hit but I hope Joubert will be more vigilant this week.

    He also paints the lineout in a very positive light. For me, it was a bit negative but maybe it wasn't as bad as I thought.

    I watched the match again with Aussie commentary and while it was just as biased, I much preferred the level of analysis in it. Sky's coverage has been extensively talked over so I'll leave it at that.


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    #49
    DDC1990
    Registered Users Posts: 10,363 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    If Australia play as well as they did last week, then I can see them winning, by a narrow margin.

    I think Vunipola, Parling, and Lydiate for Corbisero, POC and Croft, weakens the pack, especially at scrumtime.

    Bowe being back is a huge plus, but the wingers didn't get much ball last week. If they can get Bowe and North roaming, and turning up in midfield, then they could be very dangerous.

    Davies/BOD combo should come on a lot from last week, so expect them to test Leo/AAC, carrying injuries.

    Youngs is an interesting prospect. I appreciate that his delivery is quick, but Phillips extra bulk will be a loss. Youngs decision making also leaves a lot to be desired. I think he could be mentally outclassed by arguably the best SH in the World.

    Lions moving away from the physical type game, and moving towards a speedier (almost SH style) game. This might in fact suit the Wallabies, as it is their bread and butter week in week out in SXV.

    Where the Lions will gain is at the breakdown, with Lydiate and Warburton. A lot will come down to Joubert's refereeing of the breakdown.

    Prediction: Tight game, 1 score in it. More penalties from Joubert. Wallabies to win 24-21


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    #50
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,113 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    interesting that before the series the centre partnership most didnt want to see was 12 davies 13 bod.

    now injury has forced this upon us we may make do, and i suppose the partnership wasnt exactly overly stressed due to the myriad of changes in the aussie three quarters last week.
    I think it will be interesting to watch how bod and davies switch positions during the game. I can see davies inside for all of the defensive structured plays... let him bash lilo all day.

    also for structured offensive plays form the lions i see davies starting inside to draw in lilo and offering bod the chance to attack the (litterally) weak shoulder of AAC.

    However from broken offensive play i imagine bod will play almost all the game in 12. He has a quicker and hands than davies and will challange the aussie line to either decide to stand off him and drift, dangerous as it is, or to blitz and risk the grubber. There was a couple of incidents last week where bod was inside davies, once getting a great pass off behind the defender to davies.. and a second time when davies over ran bod. I wouldnt be surprised at all to see a davies try from a bod grubber this weekend.

    Add to that sextons wrap-arounds and bod and davies fixing defenders, bowe and north could have a field day against tomane and folau.

    All this though is predicated on youngs crisp accurate service. I have no problem seeing quick ball being available with the locks and backrow that start.

    On the croft / sob cover issue... i certainly dont see them being introduced at the same time. It will depend on who visibiliy lags first.. most probably lydiate... so croft will come on as a direct replacement there, with heaslips orders to change to be more aggressive at the breakdown. a rampaging SOB hopefully will get at least 20 mins against a tired aussie team....


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    #51
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    On mature reflection, Gatland has taken a risk with the bench. I don't understand why Croft is there. If AWJ goes off, the Lions are left with a suspect LH and 2 x beanpole locks, one of whom is really a 6. Might leave the pack underpowered.

    Also, there is no specialist FB cover. OK, Halfpenny is going nowhere unless he gets injured, so it's probably a reasonable gamble, but I would have thought any of Zebo, Maitland, Hogg or Kearney would have been a better choice. Is Bowe the fullback cover?


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    #52
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Le vieux renard wrote: »
    On mature reflection, Gatland has taken a risk with the bench. I don't understand why Croft is there. If AWJ goes off, the Lions are left with a suspect LH and 2 x beanpole locks, one of whom is really a 6. Might leave the pack underpowered.

    Also, there is no specialist FB cover. OK, Halfpenny is going nowhere unless he gets injured, so it's probably a reasonable gamble, but I would have thought any of Zebo, Maitland, Hogg or Kearney would have been a better choice. Is Bowe the fullback cover?

    Yeah, tbh the only reason I can see Croft being there is because he doesn't want to/can't drop him.


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    #53
    SlickRic
    Registered Users Posts: 36,133 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    Shane Williams is baffled by Mike Phillips' omission.

    http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/rugby-union/130627/exclusive-shane-williams-admits-hes-baffled-mike-phillips-second-test-om-200491

    funnily enough, he kind of answers his own question as to why he's been omitted, yet is still baffled.


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    #54
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The other big change of course is Joubert and how he looks after the game defensively. It's not like he doesn't have a previous in deciding to ref only one team. Hopefully he'll manage things fairly and we'll be able to take a couple more chances in defense. But in reality it's more important that we limit their opportunities in attack by retaining possession ourselves.

    I read a valid point that maybe we should stop referring to "how it's reffed in the north" or equally "how it's reffed in the south", but rather what does the rulebook say.

    I think the Lions will need to be careful about going down on their forearms and then attacking the ball on the way back up, as strictly speaking this is not supporting your weight (at least initially) and penalisable under the laws as they currently stand.

    My main hope is that Joubert treats both sides the same, and then it's up to the captain & team to adjust their play, if he seems to be consistently ruling a certain way.


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    #55
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    SlickRic wrote: »
    Shane Williams is baffled by Mike Phillips' omission.

    http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/rugby-union/130627/exclusive-shane-williams-admits-hes-baffled-mike-phillips-second-test-om-200491

    funnily enough, he kind of answers his own question as to why he's been omitted, yet is still baffled.

    Williams upset that his buddy is left on the sideline

    There really isn't much in the way of real logic to argue against Phillips being dropped


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    #56
    Thekidneybean
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭Thekidneybean


    .ak wrote: »
    Yeah, as we all know, the coach will never please 100% in a national setup... Multiply those expectations by 4 and it gets even worse So, he's done a great job, but a lot of the players pick themselves.

    Also, was Phillips dropped? I can't see him being left out of the 23 all together. Injured I'd say, no?

    I know this may sound odd. But, apparently he's being rested for third test which is probably a rumor.


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    #57
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    SlickRic wrote: »
    Shane Williams is baffled by Mike Phillips' omission.

    http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/rugby-union/130627/exclusive-shane-williams-admits-hes-baffled-mike-phillips-second-test-om-200491

    funnily enough, he kind of answers his own question as to why he's been omitted, yet is still baffled.

    Yawn. His countryman has been unexplicably dropped...

    With the speed of Phillips "service" last week, Williams would have been lucky to see any ball.


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    #58
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Thekidneybean wrote: »
    I know this may sound odd. But, apparently he's being rested for third test which is probably a rumor.

    Gatland hinted at that in to the press but tbh I think him being dropped is because of his performance last week

    The fact that he has a slight niggle saves Gatland a bit of hassle


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    #59
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Thekidneybean wrote: »
    I know this may sound odd. But, apparently he's being rested for third test which is probably a rumor.

    You mean like the way Doug Howlett was rested for the ABs semi-final in 2007?

    No, he's been dropped. Gatland would dearly love to win this test, and if he genuinely thinks Phillips is the man, he would have selected him up-front...unless he's injured, but I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere.


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    #60
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Le vieux renard wrote: »
    Yawn. His countryman has been unexplicably dropped...

    With the speed of Phillips "service" last week, Williams would have been lucky to see any ball.

    I think Philips is injured, or that's the spin Gatty is putting out anyway.


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    #61
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Where does SOB and Croft fit into the gameplan coming off the bench?


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