Transgender child aged 6

BattleCorp

http://news.sky.com/story/1107686/transgender-girl-coy-mathis-wins-toilets-case


Can a child of 6 know that they are transgender or are the parents pushing the child that way?

I know a friend who has a daughter that doesn't like to (won't) wear girls clothes but I wouldn't say she's transgender at 6 years of age.

Annasopra

BattleCorp wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1107686/transgender-girl-coy-mathis-wins-toilets-case


Can a child of 6 know that they are transgender or are the parents pushing the child that way?

I know a friend who has a daughter that doesn't like to (won't) wear girls clothes but I wouldn't say she's transgender at 6 years of age.

Honestly I do think that yes a child can know at the age of 6 that they are transgender. In this case the parents did not just decide overnight that Coy was a girl.

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2013/02/coy-mathis-a-familys-journey-to-support-understand-their-transgender-child/

Coy is a triplet, with a brother, Max, and a sister, Lily. At 5 months old, Coy was already expressing a preference for items associated with girls, the Mathises recalled. A friend gave them baby blankets, and Coy took a pink blanket meant for Lily. The Mathises didn’t think too much of it.

They bought Coy toys normally associated with boys, but she showed little interest. While Max was excited when Coy opened her Christmas present in 2009 to find a toy car from the Disney movie “Cars,” Coy simply set it down and walked away.

As Coy got older, she found and wore her older sister’s bathing suit, which had fringe that made it look like a tutu.

Still they pressed on in raising a boy, encouraging Coy to wear boy clothes and bought shirts that had pictures of sports, monsters and dinosaurs on them. She showed little interest, and refused to leave the house if she had to wear boy’s clothes.

It didn’t bother her father, an ex-Marine, that Coy liked to wear pink bows and dress up in girls clothes. That is, until Coy insisted on leaving the house with them on.

“She would see the stereotypical outfits laid out and then get this look of defeat and then would go, ‘I’d just rather stay home,’” her mother said. “It wasn’t about the pink. It was about people knowing she was a girl.”

When Coy asked to be taken to the doctor to be “fixed,” they took her to a psychologist who diagnosed her.

Coy started kindergarten in August 2011 but once the Mathises learned that Coy’s behavior wasn’t a phase, they allowed her to wear dresses and identify herself as a girl in the middle of the school year. The withdrawn child who was lagging behind in school began to flourish.

jaffacakesyum

I don't think a child can possibly know aged 6 about gender identity. It's a very complicated issue that even adults have difficulty understanding about themselves. Children go through all sorts of phases.

Rachiee

Its pretty complicated 6 year olds know if they are biologically a boy or a girl and they are taught from about age of 2 about gender norms ( girls play with dolls boys play with cars) so if a 6 year old isnt hung up on his/her genetalia and identifies more with the other gender based on their understanding of gender norms I'd say they have a fairly good idea. I know my cousin who was born female now male from the age of three expressed that she thought she was a boy. Id say from the age of 7 it was pretty obvious he was right.

baby and crumble

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I don't think a child can possibly know aged 6 about gender identity. It's a very complicated issue that even adults have difficulty understanding about themselves. Children go through all sorts of phases.

I think adults make it difficult. Once we start attaching social values to gender, that's when gender identity becomes a problem. If you remove societal influences on gender, it's actually pretty simple.

"I feel like I am a girl"= female.

"I feel like I am a boy"= male.

Adults complicate everything. I mean if you explain "gay" to a 5 year old, they'll mostly just go "oh, ok. so boys can like boys and girls can like girls? Grand. Let's get icecream".

I personally never went through a "phase" where I thought I was a boy. I did however, once I got a bit older (7+), pretend to be a boy when I was on holidays because I knew that boys played the more fun games (to me) but that the boys in the playgrounds on the campsites we stayed in wouldn't play with me if they knew I was a girl.

elfy4eva

Unless a child comes right out and says, I feel i'm in the wrong body,
I would feel it's wrong to assume they were TG based purely on their
behaviour.

However if a child does say that they feel they're in the wrong body
then I would be of the opinion that it's a parents duty to support
their childs personal identity and reinforce that being transgendered
is a natural occurance.

Please forgive me if I say something silly, as I am not informed of the
legal perspective to this area. However I'd be interested to know from a
state perspective. Are parents allowed to change their childs gender?
And Is there a process for this in Ireland?

Hilly Bill

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83431754

cassid

I think its a little young at 6 to be honest.

wonderfulname

I think 6 is a little young to enforce social norms on a person against their understanding, why do young children amongst themselves even need gendered bathrooms? What could humanly be wrong with any personal expression they may have? Enforcing adult concepts on children is something I have no time for, what's the harm in letting them be who they see themselves as?

baby and crumble

I actually find gendered public bathrooms weird. What's the point of them? Just make all bathrooms have loads of cubicles and you're done.

will.i.am

baby and crumble wrote: »

I actually find gendered public bathrooms weird. What's the point of them? Just make all bathrooms have loads of cubicles and you're done.

Then the poor guys would have to queue for the women to finish.

Back to the question tough, I think 6 is a bit young for the kid to know something like that.

BattleCorp

baby and crumble wrote: »

I actually find gendered public bathrooms weird. What's the point of them? Just make all bathrooms have loads of cubicles and you're done.

Would you drop your knickers in a cubicle if you knew a man was the other side of a flimsy partition? And all he had to do to see your naughty bits was to peek over or under the door?

I don't know too many women who would be comfortable with that.

bodice ripper

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would you drop your knickers in a cubicle if you knew a man was the other side of a flimsy partition? And all he had to do to see your naughty bits was to peek over or under the door?

I don't know too many women who would be comfortable with that.

I would be fine with it. is everyone else living in terror or something?

wonderfulname

There are arguments for gendered bathrooms, pretty much all based on the notion all men are potential predators but no women, it's not really applicable to kids. I personally despise them, they make me uncomfortable and using the one I'm 'supposed' to has resulted in altercations, which makes me extra wary of where I'm apparently not supposed to be, it's all very confusing.

baby and crumble

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would you drop your knickers in a cubicle if you knew a man was the other side of a flimsy partition? And all he had to do to see your naughty bits was to peek over or under the door?

I don't know too many women who would be comfortable with that.

Ummm, you do know how women pee, right? We don't strip naked and straddle the loo or anything. It's basically just sitting. What would this hypothetical peeper actually see? Also, how paranoid do you have to be to worry about stuff like that? For goodness sake, it's like changing rooms in shops. You never get completely undressed, people would see more of your skin at the beach. Don't get me wrong I'm not some crazy person advocating no boundaries, I just think that we should give men more respect than to assume their main goal in life is to see me pee.

gcgirl

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would you drop your knickers in a cubicle if you knew a man was the other side of a flimsy partition? And all he had to do to see your naughty bits was to peek over or under the door?

I don't know too many women who would be comfortable with that.

Theres many a time I went onto the lads because the ladies was chocca

BattleCorp

baby and crumble wrote: »

Ummm, you do know how women pee, right? We don't strip naked and straddle the loo or anything. It's basically just sitting. What would this hypothetical peeper actually see? Also, how paranoid do you have to be to worry about stuff like that? For goodness sake, it's like changing rooms in shops. You never get completely undressed, people would see more of your skin at the beach. Don't get me wrong I'm not some crazy person advocating no boundaries, I just think that we should give men more respect than to assume their main goal in life is to see me pee.

I was teaching a class of seven women today and I asked them would they use a unisex bathroom, i.e. would they pee if myself or another man that they didn't know was in the cubicle next to them. They all said no, they wouldn't if they could at all help it.

I'm not saying that they speak for all women everywhere, but that was their opinion.

baby and crumble

BattleCorp wrote: »

I was teaching a class of seven women today and I asked them would they use a unisex bathroom, i.e. would they pee if myself or another man that they didn't know was in the cubicle next to them. They all said no, they wouldn't if they could at all help it.

I'm not saying that they speak for all women everywhere, but that was their opinion.

I was going to say I'm surprised at that but I'm not. Most women are disturbingly paranoid.

JupiterKid

6 is very young but I do think that many children have a reasonably good idea about their gender identity and sexual orientation at a young age.

When I was about 7 or 8 years of age I pretty much knew I was gay although I couldn't really understand, express or verbalise it in the deeply homophobic Ireland of the 1980s.

Annasopra

Interesting

http://bitchmagazine.org/post/believe-me—my-daughter-is-transgender

Annasopra

This article is very good


http://globalnews.ca/news/815052/11-year-old-transgender-boy-shares-story-at-school/

PucaMama

I dont think its fair to label a child transgender at 6. Boys and girls should be free to play with watever toys they want. Just because he wanted girls toys etc doesnt mean hes transgendered its perfectly normal.

Annasopra

PucaMama wrote: »

I dont think its fair to label a child transgender at 6. Boys and girls should be free to play with watever toys they want. Just because he wanted girls toys etc doesnt mean hes transgendered its perfectly normal.

That's missing the point

She didn't just want to play with girls toys - there was a lot more to her wishes than that showing that she wanted to live life as a girl

PucaMama

mango salsa wrote: »

That's missing the point

She didn't just want to play with girls toys - there was a lot more to her wishes than that showing that she wanted to live life as a girl

I dont think such important decisions should made by a 6 year old child. Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues. Children want a lot of things its up to the parents to deal with things the right way and I dont think they were right in this case.

Annasopra

PucaMama wrote: »

I dont think such important decisions should made by a 6 year old child. Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues. Children want a lot of things its up to the parents to deal with things the right way and I dont think they were right in this case.

But it wasn't just the parents - a Psychologist confirmed it.

PucaMama

mango salsa wrote: »

But it wasn't just the parents - a Psychologist confirmed it.

Was the psychologist involved from the start

Annasopra

PucaMama wrote: »

Was the psychologist involved from the start

I'm not sure what you mean? or how it is relevant?

PucaMama

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean? or how it is relevant?

Im just asking was the psychologist involved since thr child first said they felt they were transgender

Annasopra

PucaMama wrote: »

Im just asking was the psychologist involved since thr child first said they felt they were transgender

I don't know but again I'm not sure how that is relevant

PucaMama

mango salsa wrote: »

I don't know but again I'm not sure how that is relevant

I just dont see how a six year old knows what transgender is let alone say they are it. Far too young for that. Should be only interested in school toys friends etc at that age.

Annasopra

PucaMama wrote: »

I just dont see how a six year old knows what transgender is let alone say they are it. Far too young for that. Should be only interested in school toys friends etc at that age.

My understanding is that "'He wanted to know when we were going to take him to the doctor so that they would give him girl parts so that his body would be a girl."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html#ixzz2drflj7le
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

PucaMama

mango salsa wrote: »

My understanding is that "'He wanted to know when we were going to take him to the doctor so that they would give him girl parts so that his body would be a girl."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html#ixzz2drflj7le
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Why not ask why he thought this? And explain that he is a boy. Answer any questions he has tho.

Annasopra

PucaMama wrote: »

Why not ask why he thought this?

I'm sure they did do this.

I mean I honestly don't think any parent would automatically just go -"ok yes let's bring you to the doctor"

Also by the way a number of studies have indeed shown that trans people do actually know their own gender identity at a young age.

http://www.gjss.org/images/stories/volumes/7/2/3.%20Kennedy%20and%20Hellen.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64808/

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.pdf

wonderfulname

mango salsa wrote: »

Also by the way a number of studies have indeed shown that trans people do actually know their own gender identity at a young age

A more accurate phrasing would be: A number of studies have shown that some trans people are aware of their identity at a young age.

PucaMama: Yes, children shouldn't have to deal with gender or struggle with identity, but for this child, that was a reality already, regardless of anyone elses actions.

AlexHayden

PucaMama wrote: »

I dont think such important decisions should made by a 6 year old child. Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues. Children want a lot of things its up to the parents to deal with things the right way and I dont think they were right in this case.

This is the typical ploy used against trans people all the damn time.

"6 is too young to know they're trans"
"14 is too young to know they're trans"
"18+? If you were really trans you would have done something about it by now so you must not really be trans"

Being very serious, people and doctors do this all the damn time. It's one of the methods they use to gatekeep.

Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues? Yeah well I shouldn't have to worry about money issues but I do.
Refusing to believe a child is trans isn't going to do anything but make things unbelievably worse for the child. Being unable (or forced not to) to transition is tortuous and is one of the main causes of depression among trans people.

PucaMama wrote: »

Why not ask why he thought this? And explain that he is a boy. Answer any questions he has tho.

The only reason you think she is a boy is based in biological essentialism.

eireannBEAR

mango salsa wrote: »

That's missing the point

She didn't just want to play with girls toys - there was a lot more to her wishes than that showing that she wanted to live life as a girl

Disgraceful defense of this situation,you were 6 once,you know that this story is utter nonsense,and BTW the childs a he until he can make up his own mind. this is a dangerous unfair form of PC and this childs parents need a visit from a social worker,somethings not right here.

PucaMama

AlexHayden wrote: »

This is the typical ploy used against trans people all the damn time.

"6 is too young to know they're trans"
"14 is too young to know they're trans"
"18+? If you were really trans you would have done something about it by now so you must not really be trans"

Being very serious, people and doctors do this all the damn time. It's one of the methods they use to gatekeep.

Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues? Yeah well I shouldn't have to worry about money issues but I do.
Refusing to believe a child is trans isn't going to do anything but make things unbelievably worse for the child. Being unable (or forced not to) to transition is tortuous and is one of the main causes of depression among trans people.




The only reason you think she is a boy is based in biological essentialism.

I suggest you calm yourself down . 6 IS way too young and I have never said an 18 year old should have said something earlier. As I said calm yourself down or dont address me again

AlexHayden

PucaMama wrote: »

I suggest you calm yourself down . 6 IS way too young and I have never said an 18 year old should have said something earlier. As I said calm yourself down or dont address me again

Tone policing much? For the record I am perfectly calm. But the idea that someone should not be upset and must address you with total coldness and devoid of anger or emotion is silly at best. Lack of emotion is not the epitome of reason.

6 is not too young. A 6 year old can know full well how they feel. Children are uneducated in academia for the most part, but they are not dumb.

Also if you read my post you will notice I said "people and doctors say this" I did not say "YOU, PucaMama, in particular said this". I was highlighting how your statement is a trimmed version of a much larger more insidious one.

L.Jenkins

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Disgraceful defense of this situation,you were 6 once,you know that this story is utter nonsense,and BTW the childs a he until he can make up his own mind. this is a dangerous unfair form of PC and this childs parents need a visit from a social worker,somethings not right here.

PucaMama wrote: »

I suggest you calm yourself down . 6 IS way too young and I have never said an 18 year old should have said something earlier. As I said calm yourself down or dont address me again

Trust me, 6 is not too young to know you're Trans, much like being 6 isn't too young to know which gender you're attracted to. If you're incapable of constructive debate, then please don't post here.

baby and crumble

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Disgraceful defense of this situation,you were 6 once,you know that this story is utter nonsense,and BTW the childs a he until he can make up his own mind. this is a dangerous unfair form of PC and this childs parents need a visit from a social worker,somethings not right here.

When is that exactly? Is it when a child turns into a teenager? 16? When they can vote? Children make lots of decisions, all the time. For goodness sake, you have to make one of the most important decisions of your life when you're still in school- your career and education path! I had to make those decisions when I was 13 when I began choosing my Junior Cert subjects. (I am in no way equate gender with exams, here BTW!!)

And anyway, this is all coming from the assumption that you choose a gender. You don't. I didn't. I always knew I was female. Luckily, my body matched my brain so it was ok.

And as for your comment regarding a social worker being called- I am a social worker, and frankly if I saw parents who were trying to help their child with their identity and to feel safe and content in their own skin... well I know the kind of report I'd be writing. And it wouldn't be negative.

eireannBEAR

Itzy wrote: »

Trust me, 6 is not too young to know you're Trans, much like being 6 isn't too young to know which gender you're attracted to. If you're incapable of constructive debate, then please don't post here.

I genuinely think you are confused mate,at 6 years old you are not attracted to boys or girls,please use your head and think back to when you were 6,lol

jaffacakesyum

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I don't think a child can possibly know aged 6 about gender identity.

I dunno. I think it is very possible. However I think many of the "signs" adults look for in children for it are waaaay off the mark. A girl who wants to play with action figures, tool sets, and watch power rangers is not a boy trapped in a girls body. A small boy who prefers the color pink in a blanket is not internally a girl. In fact it is not that many years ago when the fashion world was entirely reversed to what we think of today and "pink" was the boys color and "blue" the girls.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would you drop your knickers in a cubicle if you knew a man was the other side of a flimsy partition? And all he had to do to see your naughty bits was to peek over or under the door?

I am not entirely sure how you position yourself on a toilet but the way people I know generally do it does not leave even the remotest possibility of being able to see anything of note from above. And at that angle from below is pretty unlikely too.

However if a guy is willing to get down on a toilet floor and slide along it in order to stick his head under a cubicle door and twist it around to be looking up - then you likely have a hell of a lot more to fear from such a person than what he might get a glimpse of - in ways that a simple gender segregated toilet system is NOT going to protect you from at all.

PucaMama wrote: »

I dont think such important decisions should made by a 6 year old child. Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues.

They should not _have_ to no. In an ideal world. But a genuinely Transgender child - not just one who has personal preferences that go against some societal idea of "normal" - will have a lot to worry about. They will simply feel wrong. They will feel the person every one is looking at is not "them" but some fake idea people have of them in their mind. It is a massively difficult experience for them.

It would be great to say "Dont worry about it until you are older" and believe that they will just live out their child hood happily but it is not that simple alas.

eireannBEAR

baby and crumble wrote: »

And as for your comment regarding a social worker being called- I am a social worker, and frankly if I saw parents who were trying to help their child with their identity and to feel safe and content in their own skin... well I know the kind of report I'd be writing. And it wouldn't be negative.

Ah baby i always respected your posts up until this,a 6 year old boy being told by his parents that hes a 6 year old girl is not helpful,if you were indeed a ''HSE'' social worker,you would not even attempt to compare a 13 year old choosing what classes to take with a 6 year old transgender. if you were a social worker you would understand the child needs to develop on his own,and not have people pushing him in one direction or another.

L.Jenkins

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I genuinely think you are confused mate,at 6 years old you are not attracted to boys or girls,please use your head and think back to when you were 6,lol

Firstly, don't call me mate. I can recall having a crush at that age on someone of the same gender. You'd be better off to do a little reading yourself.

eireannBEAR

Itzy wrote: »

Firstly, don't call me mate. I can recall having a crush at that age on someone of the same gender. You'd be better off to do a little reading yourself.

a crush at six? little boys can be drawn to other little girls or indeed other little boys,but its not sexual and it certainly does not effect their sexual orientation mate.

hardCopy

Is it really that big a deal to let the child identify as they wish?

It's hardly an irreversible decision. The kid can always move schools if they ever change their mind and have regrets.

At some point the kid will need to decide if they want hormone treatment or surgery, but that's presumably several years away.

Annasopra

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Ah baby i always respected your posts up until this,a 6 year old boy being told by his parents that hes a 6 year old girl is not helpful,if you were indeed a ''HSE'' social worker,you would not even attempt to compare a 13 year old choosing what classes to take with a 6 year old transgender. if you were a social worker you would understand the child needs to develop on his own,and not have people pushing him in one direction or another.

What proof do you have that her parents pushed her in a specific direction

baby and crumble

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Ah baby i always respected your posts up until this,a 6 year old boy being told by his parents that hes a 6 year old girl is not helpful,if you were indeed a ''HSE'' social worker,you would not even attempt to compare a 13 year old choosing what classes to take with a 6 year old transgender. if you were a social worker you would understand the child needs to develop on his own,and not have people pushing him in one direction or another.

I don't recall anyone saying the parents were telling the child what gender they were.

Of course I know that a child needs to develop on their own, but I also understand and know that a child needs to feel safe, secure, and loved. I fail to see how assisting a child to develop the way they want to and need to is cruel.

I also stated explicitly that I was not comparing gender to subject choices, it was merely a rebuttal to your assertion that a child cannot make his/ her own choices.

I also don't know why you felt the need to specifically say 'HSE' social worker. I'm not a HSE social worker, however my training is the same. I understand child development, and the need for safety and security. I also understand gender issues, and gender development. Putting those two together would mean that I would have no problems with parents who were supporting their child to live safely and who were supporting them. Obviously if those parents started their child on hormones etc at age 6 it would be different. That would be an issue. But this isn't the case here. I genuinely fail to see what the problem is.

Annasopra

eireannBEAR wrote: »

a crush at six? little boys can be drawn to other little girls or indeed other little boys,but its not sexual and it certainly does not effect their sexual orientation mate.

As per Itzys request please don't call Itzy Mate again

eireannBEAR

baby and crumble wrote: »

I also don't know why you felt the need to specifically say 'HSE' social worker. I'm not a HSE social worker, however my training is the same. I understand child development, and the need for safety and security. I also understand gender issues, and gender develo

I know many social workers a number of my family work in that area,HSE social workers tend to be more professional,they act above their training. i have a lot of respect for them. where as the couple of social workers i know outside of the hse are off the wall TBH,im not saying you are,but you cant compare the two.

Annasopra

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I know many social workers a number of my family work in that area,HSE social workers tend to be more professional,they act above their training. i have a lot of respect for them. where as the couple of social workers i know outside of the hse are off the wall TBH,im not saying you are,but you cant compare the two.

Please refrain from suggesting that another poster is not professional. Implicit or otherwise that is an attack on a poster.Any problems PM me.