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Child Item

Transgender child aged 6

BattleCorp

http://news.sky.com/story/1107686/transgender-girl-coy-mathis-wins-toilets-case

Can a child of 6 know that they are transgender or are the parents pushing the child that way?

I know a friend who has a daughter that doesn't like to (won't) wear girls clothes but I wouldn't say she's transgender at 6 years of age.

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PucaMama

mango salsa wrote: »

My understanding is that "'He wanted to know when we were going to take him to the doctor so that they would give him girl parts so that his body would be a girl."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2347149/Coy-Mathis-Transgender-child-6-Colorado-wins-civil-rights-case-use-girls-bathroom-school.html#ixzz2drflj7le
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Why not ask why he thought this? And explain that he is a boy. Answer any questions he has tho.

Annasopra

PucaMama wrote: »

Why not ask why he thought this?

I'm sure they did do this.

I mean I honestly don't think any parent would automatically just go -"ok yes let's bring you to the doctor"

Also by the way a number of studies have indeed shown that trans people do actually know their own gender identity at a young age.

http://www.gjss.org/images/stories/volumes/7/2/3.%20Kennedy%20and%20Hellen.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64808/

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.pdf

wonderfulname

mango salsa wrote: »

Also by the way a number of studies have indeed shown that trans people do actually know their own gender identity at a young age

A more accurate phrasing would be: A number of studies have shown that some trans people are aware of their identity at a young age.

PucaMama: Yes, children shouldn't have to deal with gender or struggle with identity, but for this child, that was a reality already, regardless of anyone elses actions.

AlexHayden

PucaMama wrote: »

I dont think such important decisions should made by a 6 year old child. Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues. Children want a lot of things its up to the parents to deal with things the right way and I dont think they were right in this case.

This is the typical ploy used against trans people all the damn time.

"6 is too young to know they're trans"
"14 is too young to know they're trans"
"18+? If you were really trans you would have done something about it by now so you must not really be trans"

Being very serious, people and doctors do this all the damn time. It's one of the methods they use to gatekeep.

Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues? Yeah well I shouldn't have to worry about money issues but I do.
Refusing to believe a child is trans isn't going to do anything but make things unbelievably worse for the child. Being unable (or forced not to) to transition is tortuous and is one of the main causes of depression among trans people.

PucaMama wrote: »

Why not ask why he thought this? And explain that he is a boy. Answer any questions he has tho.

The only reason you think she is a boy is based in biological essentialism.

eireannBEAR

mango salsa wrote: »

That's missing the point

She didn't just want to play with girls toys - there was a lot more to her wishes than that showing that she wanted to live life as a girl

Disgraceful defense of this situation,you were 6 once,you know that this story is utter nonsense,and BTW the childs a he until he can make up his own mind. this is a dangerous unfair form of PC and this childs parents need a visit from a social worker,somethings not right here.

PucaMama

AlexHayden wrote: »

This is the typical ploy used against trans people all the damn time.

"6 is too young to know they're trans"
"14 is too young to know they're trans"
"18+? If you were really trans you would have done something about it by now so you must not really be trans"

Being very serious, people and doctors do this all the damn time. It's one of the methods they use to gatekeep.

Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues? Yeah well I shouldn't have to worry about money issues but I do.
Refusing to believe a child is trans isn't going to do anything but make things unbelievably worse for the child. Being unable (or forced not to) to transition is tortuous and is one of the main causes of depression among trans people.

The only reason you think she is a boy is based in biological essentialism.

I suggest you calm yourself down . 6 IS way too young and I have never said an 18 year old should have said something earlier. As I said calm yourself down or dont address me again

AlexHayden

PucaMama wrote: »

I suggest you calm yourself down . 6 IS way too young and I have never said an 18 year old should have said something earlier. As I said calm yourself down or dont address me again

Tone policing much? For the record I am perfectly calm. But the idea that someone should not be upset and must address you with total coldness and devoid of anger or emotion is silly at best. Lack of emotion is not the epitome of reason.

6 is not too young. A 6 year old can know full well how they feel. Children are uneducated in academia for the most part, but they are not dumb.

Also if you read my post you will notice I said "people and doctors say this" I did not say "YOU, PucaMama, in particular said this". I was highlighting how your statement is a trimmed version of a much larger more insidious one.

L.Jenkins

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Disgraceful defense of this situation,you were 6 once,you know that this story is utter nonsense,and BTW the childs a he until he can make up his own mind. this is a dangerous unfair form of PC and this childs parents need a visit from a social worker,somethings not right here.

PucaMama wrote: »

I suggest you calm yourself down . 6 IS way too young and I have never said an 18 year old should have said something earlier. As I said calm yourself down or dont address me again

Trust me, 6 is not too young to know you're Trans, much like being 6 isn't too young to know which gender you're attracted to. If you're incapable of constructive debate, then please don't post here.

baby and crumble

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Disgraceful defense of this situation,you were 6 once,you know that this story is utter nonsense,and BTW the childs a he until he can make up his own mind. this is a dangerous unfair form of PC and this childs parents need a visit from a social worker,somethings not right here.

When is that exactly? Is it when a child turns into a teenager? 16? When they can vote? Children make lots of decisions, all the time. For goodness sake, you have to make one of the most important decisions of your life when you're still in school- your career and education path! I had to make those decisions when I was 13 when I began choosing my Junior Cert subjects. (I am in no way equate gender with exams, here BTW!!)

And anyway, this is all coming from the assumption that you choose a gender. You don't. I didn't. I always knew I was female. Luckily, my body matched my brain so it was ok.

And as for your comment regarding a social worker being called- I am a social worker, and frankly if I saw parents who were trying to help their child with their identity and to feel safe and content in their own skin... well I know the kind of report I'd be writing. And it wouldn't be negative.

eireannBEAR

Itzy wrote: »

Trust me, 6 is not too young to know you're Trans, much like being 6 isn't too young to know which gender you're attracted to. If you're incapable of constructive debate, then please don't post here.

I genuinely think you are confused mate,at 6 years old you are not attracted to boys or girls,please use your head and think back to when you were 6,lol

[Deleted User]

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I don't think a child can possibly know aged 6 about gender identity.

I dunno. I think it is very possible. However I think many of the "signs" adults look for in children for it are waaaay off the mark. A girl who wants to play with action figures, tool sets, and watch power rangers is not a boy trapped in a girls body. A small boy who prefers the color pink in a blanket is not internally a girl. In fact it is not that many years ago when the fashion world was entirely reversed to what we think of today and "pink" was the boys color and "blue" the girls.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would you drop your knickers in a cubicle if you knew a man was the other side of a flimsy partition? And all he had to do to see your naughty bits was to peek over or under the door?

I am not entirely sure how you position yourself on a toilet but the way people I know generally do it does not leave even the remotest possibility of being able to see anything of note from above. And at that angle from below is pretty unlikely too.

However if a guy is willing to get down on a toilet floor and slide along it in order to stick his head under a cubicle door and twist it around to be looking up - then you likely have a hell of a lot more to fear from such a person than what he might get a glimpse of - in ways that a simple gender segregated toilet system is NOT going to protect you from at all.

PucaMama wrote: »

I dont think such important decisions should made by a 6 year old child. Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues.

They should not _have_ to no. In an ideal world. But a genuinely Transgender child - not just one who has personal preferences that go against some societal idea of "normal" - will have a lot to worry about. They will simply feel wrong. They will feel the person every one is looking at is not "them" but some fake idea people have of them in their mind. It is a massively difficult experience for them.

It would be great to say "Dont worry about it until you are older" and believe that they will just live out their child hood happily but it is not that simple alas.

eireannBEAR

baby and crumble wrote: »

And as for your comment regarding a social worker being called- I am a social worker, and frankly if I saw parents who were trying to help their child with their identity and to feel safe and content in their own skin... well I know the kind of report I'd be writing. And it wouldn't be negative.

Ah baby i always respected your posts up until this,a 6 year old boy being told by his parents that hes a 6 year old girl is not helpful,if you were indeed a ''HSE'' social worker,you would not even attempt to compare a 13 year old choosing what classes to take with a 6 year old transgender. if you were a social worker you would understand the child needs to develop on his own,and not have people pushing him in one direction or another.

L.Jenkins

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I genuinely think you are confused mate,at 6 years old you are not attracted to boys or girls,please use your head and think back to when you were 6,lol

Firstly, don't call me mate. I can recall having a crush at that age on someone of the same gender. You'd be better off to do a little reading yourself.

eireannBEAR

Itzy wrote: »

Firstly, don't call me mate. I can recall having a crush at that age on someone of the same gender. You'd be better off to do a little reading yourself.

a crush at six? little boys can be drawn to other little girls or indeed other little boys,but its not sexual and it certainly does not effect their sexual orientation mate.

hardCopy

Is it really that big a deal to let the child identify as they wish?

It's hardly an irreversible decision. The kid can always move schools if they ever change their mind and have regrets.

At some point the kid will need to decide if they want hormone treatment or surgery, but that's presumably several years away.

Annasopra

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Ah baby i always respected your posts up until this,a 6 year old boy being told by his parents that hes a 6 year old girl is not helpful,if you were indeed a ''HSE'' social worker,you would not even attempt to compare a 13 year old choosing what classes to take with a 6 year old transgender. if you were a social worker you would understand the child needs to develop on his own,and not have people pushing him in one direction or another.

What proof do you have that her parents pushed her in a specific direction

baby and crumble

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Ah baby i always respected your posts up until this,a 6 year old boy being told by his parents that hes a 6 year old girl is not helpful,if you were indeed a ''HSE'' social worker,you would not even attempt to compare a 13 year old choosing what classes to take with a 6 year old transgender. if you were a social worker you would understand the child needs to develop on his own,and not have people pushing him in one direction or another.

I don't recall anyone saying the parents were telling the child what gender they were.

Of course I know that a child needs to develop on their own, but I also understand and know that a child needs to feel safe, secure, and loved. I fail to see how assisting a child to develop the way they want to and need to is cruel.

I also stated explicitly that I was not comparing gender to subject choices, it was merely a rebuttal to your assertion that a child cannot make his/ her own choices.

I also don't know why you felt the need to specifically say 'HSE' social worker. I'm not a HSE social worker, however my training is the same. I understand child development, and the need for safety and security. I also understand gender issues, and gender development. Putting those two together would mean that I would have no problems with parents who were supporting their child to live safely and who were supporting them. Obviously if those parents started their child on hormones etc at age 6 it would be different. That would be an issue. But this isn't the case here. I genuinely fail to see what the problem is.

Annasopra

eireannBEAR wrote: »

a crush at six? little boys can be drawn to other little girls or indeed other little boys,but its not sexual and it certainly does not effect their sexual orientation mate.

As per Itzys request please don't call Itzy Mate again

eireannBEAR

baby and crumble wrote: »

I also don't know why you felt the need to specifically say 'HSE' social worker. I'm not a HSE social worker, however my training is the same. I understand child development, and the need for safety and security. I also understand gender issues, and gender develo

I know many social workers a number of my family work in that area,HSE social workers tend to be more professional,they act above their training. i have a lot of respect for them. where as the couple of social workers i know outside of the hse are off the wall TBH,im not saying you are,but you cant compare the two.

Annasopra

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I know many social workers a number of my family work in that area,HSE social workers tend to be more professional,they act above their training. i have a lot of respect for them. where as the couple of social workers i know outside of the hse are off the wall TBH,im not saying you are,but you cant compare the two.

Please refrain from suggesting that another poster is not professional. Implicit or otherwise that is an attack on a poster.Any problems PM me.

baby and crumble

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I know many social workers a number of my family work in that area,HSE social workers tend to be more professional,they act above their training. i have a lot of respect for them. where as the couple of social workers i know outside of the hse are off the wall TBH,im not saying you are,but you cant compare the two.

Well in my experience HSE social workers tend to be dragged down by the system and unable to see creative solutions to the problems they are faced with.

The only difference should be who pays their wages, but it goes a lot deeper than that. The obvious social worker reaction here is indeed "this is wrong" but most social workers have no knowledge of gender or sexuality issues. Which is why that's a problem.

Anyway, arguing about social workers is going off topic. I still say there's nothing worthy of social workers major attention here. Which would you rather call a social worker about: this or a child in the home of an alcoholic mother and a drug abuser father? Where they don't eat regularly and have to fend for themselves every day? You can't equate a child in a loving family environment who has stated strongly that they feel wrong all the time in their gender (albeit in children's words, but still valid) and who is being supported to develop the way they wish with the former.

eireannBEAR

baby and crumble wrote: »

Anyway, arguing about social workers is going off topic. I still say there's nothing worthy of social workers major attention here. Which would you rather call a social worker about: this or a child in the home of an alcoholic mother and a drug abuser father? Where they don't eat regularly and have to fend for themselves every day? You can't equate a child in a loving family environment who has stated strongly that they feel wrong all the time in their gender (albeit in children's words, but still valid) and who is being supported to develop the way they wish with the former.

I reckon sticking a young boy in a dress as a lot of people on this would applaud would cause serious mental issues for this little boy,if the ubber PC's are incorrect,a 6 year old simply doe's not have the self awareness in these matters to understand this situation.
the child could be gay,or indeed could be transgender but its highly likely this 6 year old could also be a normal young child that has simply taking a liking to girls toys etc. (it happens)

Annasopra

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I reckon sticking a young boy in a dress as a lot of people on this would applaud would cause serious mental issues for this little boy,if the ubber PC's are incorrect,a 6 year old simply doe's not have the self awareness in these matters to understand this situation.
the child could be gay,or indeed could be transgender but its highly likely this 6 year old could also be a normal young child that has simply taking a liking to girls toys etc. (it happens)

How do you know a 6 year cannot understand?

baby and crumble

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I reckon sticking a young boy in a dress as a lot of people on this would applaud would cause serious mental issues for this little boy,if the ubber PC's are incorrect,a 6 year old simply doe's not have the self awareness in these matters to understand this situation.
the child could be gay,or indeed could be transgender but its highly likely this 6 year old could also be a normal young child that has simply taking a liking to girls toys etc. (it happens)

Let's go back to the original article, because I think you might not have read it in its entirety. I agree, "sticking a boy in a dress" and making him live a girl would be detrimental. That's forcing a gender on him, not cool. But if that child is already a girl, just not on the surface, then sticking her in boys clothes and making her live as a boy isn't cool either.

Anyway, the original article is here, but I'm going to pick out the important bits.

Kathryn and Jeremy Mathis said the decision (to not allow the child use the girls bathroom in school) would end up stigmatising their daughter, who they said had come out of her shell when they began to allow her to live as a girl.

"They began to allow her to live as a girl". Note, not "we made him live as a girl to see if it helped" or "We put on a dress and she was happy"

Her parents also said she became depressed and withdrawn, telling them that she wanted to get "fixed" by a doctor.

That doesn't sound like a child who just wants to see what something is like. I don't ever remember wanting to go to a doctor to "get fixed" unless I knew I was sick.

They later learned she had gender identity disorder - a condition in which someone identifies as the opposite gender.

Seems like responsible parenting to me to go to get your child the help he or she needs for a diagnosed medical and psychological disorder.

The Mathises said they decided to help Coy live as a girl and she came out of her shell.

Again, seems to me like the actions the parents have taken have resulted in a happier, more adjusted child. Tell me where this is a bad thing, or an abusive situation?

Hamhide

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I reckon sticking a young boy in a dress as a lot of people on this would applaud would cause serious mental issues for this little boy,if the ubber PC's are incorrect,a 6 year old simply doe's not have the self awareness in these matters to understand this situation.
the child could be gay,or indeed could be transgender but its highly likely this 6 year old could also be a normal young child that has simply taking a liking to girls toys etc. (it happens)

I knew I was different when I was 6, I didnt know I was transgender because I didnt know what transgender was, nor did I know what gay was but I definitely knew I wasnt the same as everyone else.I know for a fact that sticking me in a dress when I was 6 would have made me immensely happy not cause me mental issues.I was quite self aware of this and although I wasnt quite sure what I was going through and why I felt this way I was aware I wasnt like other kids my age.Saying this child isnt self aware that he/she might be different is silly.I didnt play with girls toys a lot when I was a child yet I knew I wasnt quite a normal boy, not all typical trans people are strickly interested in their prefered genders activities and roles.

nozzferrahhtoo

baby and crumble wrote: »

That doesn't sound like a child who just wants to see what something is like. I don't ever remember wanting to go to a doctor to "get fixed" unless I knew I was sick.

It is amazingly hard for people like EB above to understand what goes on in the minds of people like this. Regardless of their age. So I can imagine why it is so hard for them to achieve any level of comprehension when we are talking about a 6 year old.... who they perceive as not even being capable of understanding there is anything "wrong" with them.

Even I find myself hard pushed to put myself into that head space despite studying this issue and many vaguely similar to it for many years at a biological and psychological and neuro science level.

It often puts me in the mind of people with alien limb syndrome. These peoples internal body map/identity of themselves differs from the actual physical real person.

And these people can end up horrifically depressed. Something like their own arm can be an alien intruder encroaching on their life all day every day. They simply feel "wrong" in more senses of that word than I care to define. Some even describe it as a physical pain or torture or worse.

Some of these people even go to countries with different medical ethics than our own solely to have such a limb chopped off. They return immensely happy. People, aghast, ask them are they not upset to have lost a limb or to be incomplete.... only to be told by such people that they have never until this day felt "complete" at all.

People who have not had such conditions, myself included, struggle to get into that kind of head space. Many do not even try. All they see are lunatics who want to hack off bits of themselves. They do not understand what it is like, what a torture it can be, and just how big an impact it can have on your life. They know something is "wrong" with their body even if they do not understand the hows and whys of it.

So yes I very much do think that even a 6 year old can have this and that working with it is the right thing to do despite eireannBEAR's horror at the idea of doing things like "sticking a boy in a dress". I go with an earlier poster however who says that the warning signs some parents will jump at at times can be way beyond OTT and while this is a genuine real condition... _some_ people are much too keen to diagnose it in children for the tiniest of reasons.

Nothing to do with the case in the OP of course which I know little to nothing about, just as a general statement. It reminds me sometimes of the simpsons episode where Homers sole test for whether Bart was gay or not was to present him a blue and pink cupcake and see which one he chose.

[Deleted User]

mango salsa wrote: »

This article is very good

http://globalnews.ca/news/815052/11-year-old-transgender-boy-shares-story-at-school/

Cool kid.

PucaMama wrote: »

I dont think such important decisions should made by a 6 year old child. Children shouldn't have to worry about gender issues. Children want a lot of things its up to the parents to deal with things the right way and I dont think they were right in this case.

eireannBEAR wrote: »

I reckon sticking a young boy in a dress as a lot of people on this would applaud would cause serious mental issues for this little boy

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

It is amazingly hard for people like EB above to understand what goes on in the minds of people like this. Regardless of their age. So I can imagine why it is so hard for them to achieve any level of comprehension when we are talking about a 6 year old.... who they perceive as not even being capable of understanding there is anything "wrong" with them.

Agreed. However, it never ceases to surprise me how such people who (presumably) have no experience of raising a transgender child are so full sure they know better than the people out there who are doing it and doing it well.

They even know better than adult transgender people who can identify with and relate to the experiences of these children ... or have even been in the exact same position.

And they know better than health professionals who specialise in this area ... who seemingly can't tell the difference between a transgender child and a child who simply likes playing with toys they're not supposed to enjoy.

There is literally nothing that can be said that will help them understand.

This lady and her mother (who I had the pleasure of hearing speak a few months back) are fantastic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2235781/Jackie-Green-Transgender-beauty-queen-praises-amazing-family-ahead-BBC-documentary.html