better off on the dole

woodoo

drumswan wrote: »

None of this applies to working crappy minimum wage jobs.

Id rather be on the dole looking for decent work if the incomes are any way comparable. Sorry if that offends people.

It shouldn't be an option though. The dole should be so crap that working a min wage job seems attractive.

V123

It shouldn't be an option though. The dole should be so crap that working a min wage job seems attractive.

You suggest cutting the amount that people are getting to make people on low wages feel better?

So in other words you think it will make people happy if they know someone is worse off?

If you are struggling to get by on minimum wage - will it improve your situation if you know that someone is worse off? will that feed you?

woodoo

V123 wrote: »

You suggest cutting the amount that people are getting to make people on low wages feel better?

So in other words you think it will make people happy if they know someone is worse off?

If you are struggling to get by on minimum wage - will it improve your situation if you know that someone is worse off? will that feed you?

No thats not what i'm saying. I want the dole to be crap to make people on it feel that a min wage job would be attractive.

Welfare should be about the basics, not so good that people can almost have everything a worker has. Like a nice house, a car, a holiday, Big TV, Sky etc etc. Of course i'm refering to long term dole payments. Newly unemployed should get a decent rate.

daithicarr

woodoo wrote: »

Welfare should be about the basics, not so good that people can almost have everything a worker has. Like a nice house, a car, a holiday, Big TV, Sky etc etc. .

What land are you living in, you cant afford any of that on Social welfare or minimum wage, Ive been on both at various times and you can barely afford the basics. Anyone on either social welfare or minimum wage and has a nice house and car and holidays must have another source of income, other wise its impossible.

Sleepy

V123 wrote: »

Sleep - that is 7.50 euro an hour more like as your example gave one person on 188 and the other as a depended spouse so it is based on two people claiming!

V123 wrote: »

you can only really compare this situation to a married couple both working minimum wage - and using the deloitte tax calculator that you used, a married couple both working on min wage would have a net income of €33,574.00

There is a difference of 5879 euros here based on your example of a couple on the dole with two children!

I was looking at it as a single earner for a simple reason: if both work, they need to pay for childcare for the two kids and you'd be hard pushed to find a childminder who'd mind two kids for a little over €100 a week! (tbh, in Dublin, you'd be doing well to find a childminder who'd mind one for that).

mariaalice wrote: »

But what all the people complaining here don't seem to realises if welfare is reduced it wont make you any better off your income will still be the same but someone else will barley have en ought to eat, so in a way I don't understand the point.

Undoubtedly there are people choosing welfare over min wage working, but they are rare its like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

If welfare is reduced, the welfare bill decreases and more people on welfare take jobs they wouldn't have otherwise or start their own businesses (decreasing welfare bills further). In short: economic activity increases and government spending decreases. The deficit lowers further and economic growth becomes more possible. I may not personally see tax breaks as a result of this but it means further tax increases are less likely and less cuts to public services are necessary.

godwin

Sleepy wrote: »

If welfare is reduced, the welfare bill decreases and more people on welfare take jobs

What jobs? People say this stuff like jobs are dime a dozen , they are not. I have seen 5 good friends and 2 of my brothers emigrate because they can't find stable work. I'm in the position of being trapped here because I have kids , luckily I have a job , but for how long , things are bleak out there.

And to counter your figures , here's what my sister and her partner who are both unemployed get -

€310 - a week job seekers benefit and qualified adult dependant
€63 - rent allowance a week
----
€373 per week for 2 people

hows that better off than 2 people working on minimum wage , who earn a total of €700(correct me if I'm wrong) per week...

foxy06

godwin wrote: »

If you really think you're better off on the dole , at home arsing around watching daytime TV , loosing focus on yourself , then you really need to evaluate your life.

But you wouldn't be when kids are involved. Why would someone go out to work and pay childcare costs when they could look after their own and be the same or even better off. Single person no dependents on the dole probably wouldn't be better off. A person with 2 or more children probably would

All in Welfare should not even approach the same pay level as minimum wage levels.
The fact that is does and exceeds it and in some cases exceeds well paid jobs shows the deep trouble Ireland is in.

Nobody wants to make the changes necessary because it would be dramatic for all affected. The benefits would be a cheaper cost of living, lower taxes and Our competitiveness would increase.

Moonbeam

People with Social welfare entitlements also qualify for subvention in community creches, people with no social welfare do not.
We need the government to get involved in the childcare fiasco,creches can be expensive to run but some commercial creches also make massive profits, tax relief on the fees would help.

Sleepy

godwin wrote: »

What jobs? People say this stuff like jobs are dime a dozen , they are not. I have seen 5 good friends and 2 of my brothers emigrate because they can't find stable work.

Stable work, or stable work at a salary they found acceptable? I'm seeing quite a few low paid jobs advertised these days and an awful lot of unskilled workers who think themselves too good for minimum wage because they used to earn decent money on the sites...

Granted, there's not enough of these low paid jobs out there to hire all of those on the live register but while there's nothing we can do until the world economy picks up to get ourselves back to full employment, reducing the welfare rates would get people to take these jobs or spur them to start their own small businesses doing what they could to avoid having to subsist on welfare.

€310 a week sounds more than enough for two adults to survive on when their rent is paid tbh. Take out the costs of our rent and running our 10 year old car and myself and the other half wouldn't have much more than the equivalent €1,343 a month to live on with 2 kids to provide for. And that's on a salary of over 50k.

AlekSmart

woodoo wrote: »

Welfare should be about the basics, not so good that people can almost have everything a worker has. Like a nice house, a car, a holiday, Big TV, Sky etc etc. Of course i'm refering to long term dole payments. Newly unemployed should get a decent rate.

A valid,but unpalatable point here.

Most of my late parents advice to me focused on the need to get a good education and a job,cos in their simplistic (realistic ?) world If you had no job,you had Nuttin...you'd have to sell everything ye had,and only then,be entitled to The Dole.

Stigma attaching to it ?.....In my parents view Too Bloody Right there was,and for better or worse that instictive regard has remained deeply ingrained in my brain.

Being part of Productive Labour focused society HAS to be seen to bring substantial benefit to those who embrace it.

The very real danger in modern Ireland is that this dwindling "Productive" sector is having the life blood drained from it to further maintain the unrealistic provisions which the DSP's various schemes continue to provide.

Something's gotta give..?

[Jackass]

V123 wrote: »

so basically Jackass - your answer is to cut the people on the dole and that will make the people working on minimum wage happier even though they are still struggling regardless of what the person gets on the dole?

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion from my post.

No, cutting the dole has nothing to do with people on minimum wage. Minimum wage is being raised in order to entice people who are on the dole back out to work. But there is such a phenomenon known as discouraged worker who is accounted for when calculating the real "unemployment rate" as it is strictly defined in Economics (i.e. people who are out of work but actively seeking work).

Of course, this figure is virtually impossible to quantify in real terms, but lowering unaffordable benefits for those not working is a better incentive to make people look for work (i.e. reducing what they have) than bringing up the minimum wage as a tool to get people back out looking for work (i.e. increasing what they could have).

This isn't a witch hunt by the way. I'm not suggesting that for every person out there on the dole, there are 10 jobs waiting for them but they are just too lazy to get them, but what I am saying is that the discouraged effect needs to be tackled, the cost of welfare needs to be tackled and also their needs to be a training programme in place for unemployed people which runs in conjunction with a national development plan - that is to say, for those who aren't working, have free FETAC courses available for skills in an industry where the Government is also looking to stimulate, match the skills being given to unemployed people with the industry you are trying to grow, and you have an up skilled workforce with specific skills you need.

And those who don't try and up skill or find work are therefore put on the bare minimum as quite frankly, we can't afford to carry them anymore and would be giving them a chance (and extra money) by trying.

meathstevie wrote: »

Where do you get the illusion that people in the public sector are earning too much ? If you looked a bit further than the stories that are pasted over all of the Irish media day in day out you'd quickly come to the conclusion that the vast majority of public sector workers are on very modest wages.

A little fairy tale called "bench marking" is where I get the illusion. The public sector pay rate is benchmarked against (i.e. is made to reflect) the pay levels of the peak of the boom in Ireland.

Whilst a salary you might consider "modest" in the public sector is likely equivalent to a job that no longer exists in the private sector. The public sector is a noose around the countries neck, even look at the latest negotiations, the public sector is essentially saying "we kicked and screamed until we got the same wages as the private sector when that sector was generating billions more revenue, even though our productivity remained the same, and now that that sector has collapsed, we no longer want to be benchmarked against them, we just want to remain on the pay level they were on when we were in the midst of a massively overheated economy, even though our productivity still remains the same".

It's not acceptable and needs to be reformed, the whole civil service needs to be restructured to become more efficient and to run better with less staff on lower wages - which is entirely possible, the main stumbling block of course is the wage rigidity and non-acceptance of economic certainty, that at present the public sector is entirely unsustainable, and everyone from the ECB to the IMF have called for mass pay cuts and redundancies, yet the bubble of public sector workers still somehow manage to defend or not see the reality of what is going on in the world and what needs to be done.

meathstevie wrote: »

And as for subsidies to industry and all, first of all you may find that in a lot of cases direct subsidies are illegal.

Technically you're right, provisions against industrial state aid are prohibited under Article 107 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, however, try bringing that up in the next AGM of Bank of Ireland, AIB or just about any other financial institution around Europe. There's a certain level of economic anarchy at the moment, and not all rules are enforceable (see the SGP for example).

Also, there are many ways to subsidize an industry indirectly - i.e. grants and tax exemptions.

meathstevie wrote: »

Second, the net result in real terms often only leads to nationalisation of costs in essence not too different from someone deciding that in their case work doesn't pay and the benefits system is a better option.

To an extent I can see some benefit in providing more support to business but on one condition; it has to be real tangible business that does generate real tangible products be it agriculture, food industry, oil and mineral exploration, high end manufacturing etc etc. The last thing Ireland needs is another shower of fancy knobs in expensive suits coming up with all sorts of fancy talk and books cooking to drop the cost of their mess onto the back of society when they disappear over the hill.

Of course it would be tangible output that would be subsidized, as I said, I'm not talking about handing over €1,000,000 to some lad and saying "go make money", I'm talking about small to medium sized enterprise that exists, issuing grants for expansion plans that are written in stone, giving employment assistance, getting people back to work on a subsidised wage rate which is supported by the Government based on hiring people from the FETAC etc. training programmes I was mentioning earlier, or if not wage assistance, then tax incentives to hire these unemployed people whilst expanding.

kennryyr

Just wanted to give me 2 cents. I knew a girl for years but we don't speak anymore. She is a single mother who has two kids with 2 different guys. She is not seeing either of them now. She first got pregnant when she was 17 or 18.

This girl has never worked a day in her life. Like I mean literally has never had a job. She is 24 now. She has had a total of 4 different properties handed to her. 3 apartments and 1 house. Last apartment I seen her with was a lovely large modern 3 bed apartment. She goes out every weekend clubbing, always goes shopping. Cupboards always full, tonnes of toys for the kids etc.

She has never worked one day in her life. This is what annoys me about the social welfare. She had kids with 2 scumbags who basically laughed at her. She was irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong I would hate to be on the dole having to sit in all day would be soul crushing. But why would she ever, ever want to find a job? Rant over

V123

And those who don't try and up skill or find work are therefore put on the bare minimum as quite frankly, we can't afford to carry them anymore and would be giving them a chance (and extra money) by trying

jackass in order to qualify for jobseekers you must be a jobseeker and you can be asked for proof of this. There are courses available and people are sent on them to up skill.

Just wanted to give me 2 cents. I knew a girl for years but we don't speak anymore. She is a single mother who has two kids with 2 different guys. She is not seeing either of them now. She first got pregnant when she was 17 or 18.

This girl has never worked a day in her life. Like I mean literally has never had a job. She is 24 now. She has had a total of 4 different properties handed to her. 3 apartments and 1 house. Last apartment I seen her with was a lovely large modern 3 bed apartment. She goes out every weekend clubbing, always goes shopping. Cupboards always full, tonnes of toys for the kids etc.

She has never worked one day in her life. This is what annoys me about the social welfare. She had kids with 2 scumbags who basically laughed at her. She was irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong I would hate to be on the dole having to sit in all day would be soul crushing. But why would she ever, ever want to find a job? Rant over

kennyryyr - this is a generalised view of her life - how do you know her family don't give the girl a few bob at the weekend to get out of the house after looking after two kids?

is someone on the dole not allowed to socialise? are they allowed a tv? or brand products or will we just give them horsemeat from tescos?

But Kenny your right - it is disgraceful that she has food in the cupboards and has toys for the kids - I think they should be taking off them!

creedp

But Kenny your right - it is disgraceful that she has food in the cupboards and has toys for the kids - I think they should be taking off them!

This is the full quote .. being a bit selective aren't we?

This girl has never worked a day in her life. Like I mean literally has never had a job. She is 24 now. She has had a total of 4 different properties handed to her. 3 apartments and 1 house. Last apartment I seen her with was a lovely large modern 3 bed apartment. She goes out every weekend clubbing, always goes shopping. Cupboards always full, tonnes of toys for the kids etc.

It might be more appropriate to say that it is disgraceful that many people in low paid employment can't afford to put food on the table and provde for their families which is why for many it is more beneficial to go/remain on the dole.

However, the hyperbole sounds better

V123

creedp - I agree and that is what I am saying - for people that are low wage and are struggling we need to help them but it will not help them by attacking people on the dole or cutting it.

Sleepy

So what do we do then V123? Increase minimum wage to the point where it'll be more than your dole entitlements in every scenario? Most employers would end up going bankrupt if we tried that.

The simple fact is that those on welfare are living far better lives than they have any right to and those of us in the productive sector can't afford to maintain those levels of comfort to which they've become accustomed.

V123

in the situations that I am talking about I think that we need to reduce the cost of crèches somehow! in most cases this is what is causing the problems for families on low wage income

creedp

Sleepy wrote: »

So what do we do then V123? Increase minimum wage to the point where it'll be more than your dole entitlements in every scenario? Most employers would end up going bankrupt if we tried that.

The simple fact is that those on welfare are living far better lives than they have any right to and those of us in the productive sector can't afford to maintain those levels of comfort to which they've become accustomed.

There's a line to be drawn here and it difficult to decide where. People who lose their jobs and require SW should be entitled to a reasonable level of welfare to allow them to try and look for a new job, retrain, etc. However, the problem is for how long? While I know I am open to the challenge of 'prove it' or 'provide a link', there are many people using SW as a long term/lifetime means of making a living. The longer a person remains on welfare and become accustomed to not working and surviving with a reasonable level of comfort then the less chance they will ever go back to the drudgery of work ... why would they? Bottom line work is not easy .. so from a societal perspective there should not be a long term financial incentive to avoid it.

godwin

Sleepy wrote: »

€310 a week sounds more than enough for two adults to survive on when their rent is paid tbh. Take out the costs of our rent and running our 10 year old car and myself and the other half wouldn't have much more than the equivalent €1,343 a month to live on with 2 kids to provide for. And that's on a salary of over 50k.

Nope , their rent has to come out of the €310 also , the €64 only covers 40% of their rent , then you have electricity , food , heating etc too come out of the €310. But you're right they survive , that's it , none of the other stuff you mentioned SKY , big tv , car , holiday.

Sleepy

Sounds like whoever did the Rent Allowance calculations did a fair job of it then, no?

ShowMeTheCash

Quite a lot on this thread but just some of my own throughts:

It used to be people on the dole struggled the most..
People on the national wage it would appear struggle as much and sometimes more, based on some of the figures.

It has been commented that people who think it is better to be on the dole need to reevaluate their lives... No, I think these people are just good at Math. The fact that there is almost no difference for some people to work vs be on the dole shows how screwed up this country really is!!!

The idea that is sets a bad example for your kids.. Really?? Spending more time with the kids and having more disposable income sets a bad example? I doubt that very much!!

They reality is somewhat dire, we live in an over inflated country, our public sector is over paid, I worked in it for long enough, the idea it is not is more based on the idea that everything we spend money on is over inflated...

Our dole payments in comparison with the UK are huge, now it could be argued that, this is what is actually required to live in our over inflated country, but we are broke! We are borrowing money hand over fist... People need to realise this will come to an end, its not will it happen, it's when will it happen!

I think as a country we need to stop thinking Tiger Economy but get back to reality, evetually this will level itself out... It's really how we make the transition...

Personally if I was better off on the dole I would probably be on the dole... I worry however this is a sinking ship... Our government and the greed of people in this country have effectively thrown a lot of people on the scapheap with little to few options in the coming years.

I do think most people would be happier working, but not working and continuing to struggle from one week to the next, which is essentially is what we have...

beaver111

im on 400 a week ,wife and three kids you try and live on it :mad:

gaius c

Why don't we compare dole entitlements here with what you get in other countries?

ShowMeTheCash

gaius c wrote: »

Why don't we compare dole entitlements here with what you get in other countries?

If you are going to do that you will need include national debit, unemployment levels and infastructure.

They need to be comparible...

I think the UK is out cloest neighbour and the fact we share a boarder with them is a good start.

I think someone already posted it.

it was something like 35 - 45 pounds a week for JSA for a single person.
Currently 52ish euro a week, compared to 188euro a week.

Godge

godwin wrote: »

What jobs? People say this stuff like jobs are dime a dozen , they are not. I have seen 5 good friends and 2 of my brothers emigrate because they can't find stable work. I'm in the position of being trapped here because I have kids , luckily I have a job , but for how long , things are bleak out there.

And to counter your figures , here's what my sister and her partner who are both unemployed get -

€310 - a week job seekers benefit and qualified adult dependant
€63 - rent allowance a week
----
€373 per week for 2 people

hows that better off than 2 people working on minimum wage , who earn a total of €700(correct me if I'm wrong) per week...

godwin wrote: »

Nope , their rent has to come out of the €310 also , the €64 only covers 40% of their rent , then you have electricity , food , heating etc too come out of the €310. But you're right they survive , that's it , none of the other stuff you mentioned SKY , big tv , car , holiday.

They must pay €35 per week in addition to the rent supplement, so if the €64 only covers 40% of the rent, they are subsidising a better quality place out of their social welfare payment.

jmayo

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Maybe you should do some training or further education and get a better paying job?

Ehhh not everyone can become a developer with Google, a consultant, or a manager.

Actually you have just reminded me of one of the problems with the public sector.
In areas like HSE it looks like new layers of management were added so that more people could be hired, existing ones promoted and given salary increases.
There was no benefit to the organisation, the owners i.e. the taxpayers or the customers.

Some people are invariably stuck in jobs for various reasons including that is what they are only capable to do.
Even if they are menail jobs, they should not be penalised because they work and that is the what high social welfare for long term unemployed does.

What you are telling these people is that they deserve to be paid less than someone who isn't even working, because they are not capable of rising through the ranks or being trained for something else.

I find that insulting.

V123 wrote: »

at least when you have a job you have the possibility with time of getting a raise-moving forward, new training - but yes it is difficult and I agree they need to do something about childcare costs - especially if you are in a situation where it is really draining on your income (someone on the dole does not have to pay this - yet someone working has to pay this even if they are only earning a similar wage to someone on the dole so that doesn't make sense!

It is not alone childcare it is things like doctors etc.
The Irish welfare state has grown too damm attractive and people need to cop on it is a safety net not a lifetime career option.
The seeds for this were set way back, but instead of cutting welfare during our time of so called full employment bertie the sh** ramped it up.

V123 wrote: »

You suggest cutting the amount that people are getting to make people on low wages feel better?

So in other words you think it will make people happy if they know someone is worse off?

If you are struggling to get by on minimum wage - will it improve your situation if you know that someone is worse off? will that feed you?

Why should someone who is not working be as well off as someone who does ?
And this is in particular reference to those career social welfareists.
Did you know even at the height of our bubble/boom we had over 80,000 unemployed ?
WTF were these people doing when we had emigrants arriving every day to fill vacancies ?

I guess it is another example of moral hazard Irish style.
Reward those who can't be bothered while at the same time screw those who give a sh**.

clairefontaine

Moonbeam wrote: »

People with Social welfare entitlements also qualify for subvention in community creches, people with no social welfare do not.
We need the government to get involved in the childcare fiasco,creches can be expensive to run but some commercial creches also make massive profits, tax relief on the fees would help.

Yes. This is absolutely ridiculous. Not working and you get cheap childcare. Working and your bludgeoned to the point you can't afford to work.

skafish

V123 wrote: »

in the situations that I am talking about I think that we need to reduce the cost of crèches somehow! in most cases this is what is causing the problems for families on low wage income

Correct me if I misunderstand your point: are you saying there are people claiming the dole because if they go to work, the cost of child care is so high, they can't afford it?
So, basically, the people you refer to are claiming Jobseekers allowance while they stay home and look after their children? Therefore they are unavailable for work, and are making fraudulent claims. Or am I missing something?