better off on the dole

foxy06

foxy06 wrote: »

Good guess considering I pulled this out of my ass :-D

Sorry, it was a dig at the bankers tapes!

V123

everyone with a child receives children allowance

if your a millionaire with 10 kids you get paid the same amount as if you are unemployed with 10 kids!

foxy06

Mikehaw wrote: »

Well then let one of the parents mind the kids, ye are already getting child maintaince.

Again what example is it to children when their parents are scrounging of the state(choosing to claim something they are not entitled to)

Point is though they ARE entitled to it. The question is when a couple like that have to take childcare into account would they not just stay at home with one working part time than two working and one whole wage going on childcare? Would a subsidised childcare system not be better? Something to encourage mothers in particular to return to work after children. I know several that are yearning to work but just cant afford to.

Mikehaw

foxy06 wrote: »

They would get that whether they are working or not though so for the question at hand I wouldn't even take it into account.

Ahh didn't realise you you were that type of person.

Sure don't forget to add in the medical card and whilst your at claim rent allowance or what about a council house and fuel allowance.

Again you are some poor example of a parent if you scrounge of the dole(dole is there to assist people who have fallen on hard times and can't find a job not a choice). What will they turn out like watching one of their parents breeze through life without working, having a great life of the state

V123

yea Mikehaw - take away the medical card, rent allowance or what about a council house and fuel allowance - lets hope they get ill or freeze to death!

Foxy, as one who has had to rely on the dole at different stages, believe me it's best avoided if at all possible. It can be soul destroying. It's bad enough when you're on stamps, but degrading when you've to be assessed.

V123

I don't think its a case of wanting to be on the dole though Maryanne- its just a point that financially if you have to pay childcare and are on a certain wage - your standard of living is less than that of someone on the dole!

foxy06

Its the people that are forced out of work and onto welfare because of crazy childcare is the problem.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/economics-14082009-irish-welfare-rates.html

Our replacement net of tax wage - equalizing the value of benefits obtained by the welfare recipient (in the case of my model - single parent with one kid) to make them even with the wage earner - now stands at €31,102.

The above figure is not inclusive of Income Taxes, Income Levies, PRSI and Health Levy contributions exacted by the state off those working. So let us add this to the numbers above.

For PAYE:

Health levy adds 4% on all earnings below €75,036;
PRSI levy adds another 4%
Income tax and Levies (here) - €31,102 after tax is consistent with the pre-tax earnings of €39,870pa

Replacement wage for PAYE (inc PRSI and Health Levy): €43,059.60.

For Self-Employed person:

Health levy adds 3.333% on all earnings below €75,036;
PRSI levy adds another 5%.

Replacement wage for Self-Employed (inc PRSI and Health Levy): €43,191.17.

If we are to recognise that a self-employed person has to cover some of the costs of their work out of pocket, say 25% of the net revenue received in income (a conservative assumption if you need to operate some equipment, run a van etc), a self-employed person working in this country would have to generate around €54,000 in revenue in order to come close to breaking even with a welfare recipient!

Pre-tax average wages by sector (for All workers and for lower grade of P&M Workers):

Industry: All employees = €42,078 pa (-€981pa relative to a welfare recipient), Production & Manual Workers = €34,507 (-€8,552pa);
Mining & Quarrying: All = €40,435 pa (-€2,624pa), P&M Workers = €36,878 (-€6,181pa);
Manufacturing: All = €41,184 pa (-€1,875pa), P&M Workers = €33,675 (-€9.384pa);
Electricity, Gas & Water Supply, Waste: All = €55,286 pa (+€12,227 pa), P&M Workers = €46,592 pa (+€3,533pa);
Financial & Insurance Services: All = €56,742 pa (+€13,683pa), P&M Workers = €34,445 pa (-€8,614pa).
Minimum wage earners €17,992 pa (-€25,068pa worse off working than being on welfare).

Welfare spending now accounts for over 70% of the annual Exchequer tax intake. It is more than 37% of our current expenditure bill.

That is a disaster on the same scale as NAMA.

ardmacha

Welfare spending now accounts for over 70% of the annual Exchequer tax intake. It is more than 37% of our current expenditure bill.

While this thread has a real point, this is in the kind of sloppy use of statistics that undermines this forum. If welfare is 70% of tax, but only 37% of expenditure, are you implying that expenditure is almost twice tax take?

gaius c

Mikehaw wrote: »

What kind of example are you setting to your kids?

Seriously why do people view it as simply as ill get more on the dole so im not bothering my arse looking for a job. if you are able to work dole shouldn't come into it.

Trying to shame people into working isn't going to cut it. It's getting increasingly difficult for people on non-google wages to get by in this country. Living costs are increasing. Rent, mortgages, the price of groceries, transport, taxes: they are all going up. It also "costs" money to work. You need to be suitably dressed. You need to get there and back. You may end up spending over the odds on food.

We're at the point that I've no idea how single income families on average wages actually survive in Dublin at all. The dole must seem attractive in comparison.

wolfpawnat

V123 wrote: »

I don't think its a case of wanting to be on the dole though Maryanne- its just a point that financially if you have to pay childcare and are on a certain wage - your standard of living is less than that of someone on the dole!

Actually, taking into account all the costs, including lunches and the like, you are often worse off. I cannot afford a creche As a result, I am waiting for my OH to qualify so we can afford it and get on with our lives, away from the SW.

Ireland needs to get it's head out of it's arse and sort the cost of creches. I really think it should be based on income, not a standard rate. That way people can show their kids how to earn a living and have self worth, I really miss the pride of earning my money (never a fortune, but I paid my bills and had enough to live), when I used to treat myself to a top or a coffee and feeling I deserved it!

The government is cutting everything and taxing everything else rather than sorting things and allowing people to live productive lives.

daithicarr

I cant see how a family earning minimum wage could earn enough to survive.
you can either have one working, which wouldn't be enough to cover the basics of food, rent, utility's.

Or two working, with most of the second earners wage going on childcare.

I don't think raising the minimum wage is really an option given our current lack of competitiveness, but some serious effort has to be made to reduce the cost of living, thus reducing the welfare bill and increasing the purchase power of minimum wage earners.

Child care would be a great place to start to enable people return to work , even if its poorly paid work.

A friend of mine in Finland complained it cost 500 euro a month to have her two children minded. You'd be hard pressed to find that for one child here and ive been to Finland, its not the cheapest country in the world.

But then they do a lot of things better than us, better level of education for less spending per capita etc.

Godge

ardmacha wrote: »

While this thread has a real point, this is in the kind of sloppy use of statistics that undermines this forum. If welfare is 70% of tax, but only 37% of expenditure, are you implying that expenditure is almost twice tax take?

Non-tax revenue - fees, charges etc. may make up the difference.

gaius c

daithicarr wrote: »

I cant see how a family earning minimum wage could earn enough to survive.
you can either have one working, which wouldn't be enough to cover the basics of food, rent, utility's.

Or two working, with most of the second earners wage going on childcare.

I don't think raising the minimum wage is really an option given our current lack of competitiveness, but some serious effort has to be made to reduce the cost of living, thus reducing the welfare bill and increasing the purchase power of minimum wage earners.

Child care would be a great place to start to enable people return to work , even if its poorly paid work.

A friend of mine in Finland complained it cost 500 euro a month to have her two children minded. You'd be hard pressed to find that for one child here and ive been to Finland, its not the cheapest country in the world.

But then they do a lot of things better than us, better level of education for less spending per capita etc.

The key cost in this country is the cost of putting a roof over your head. Rents are tracking up again. Went to look at a place tonight with a queue at the door and the agent said 80% of their calls were from social welfare tenants desperate to find a place but they said no to all of them so it was just earning folk in that particular queue.

OMD

ardmacha wrote: »

While this thread has a real point, this is in the kind of sloppy use of statistics that undermines this forum. If welfare is 70% of tax, but only 37% of expenditure, are you implying that expenditure is almost twice tax take?

I've said it before but if Constantin Gurdgiev tries to work out figures he is almost always wrong. For an educated guy he really doesn't understand figures. Almost every blog if his I have looked at contains some error in its figures.

This is more sh1te from him. So many holes in it and then he compares gross pay, pre expenses (although he makes no reference to how expenses are 25%of self employed person to social welfare recipient. Why?

drumswan

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

To improve their life, act as a good example to their kids, socially, maybe they like working

None of this applies to working crappy minimum wage jobs.

Id rather be on the dole looking for decent work if the incomes are any way comparable. Sorry if that offends people.

[Jackass]

It's taken a while for it to sink in that the OP is NOT on the dole and the figures given are an EXAMPLE of a situation where a family would be better off on the dole and the point of the thread is HOW can it make sense to make more money sitting at home than it is to work. Hopefully that's the last clarification that will be needed on the thread.

Regarding your point OP, it is madness really. The situation you presented is pretty much the type of situation that many people wouldn't bother continuing in and that is a major part of our problem. Similar to what I mentioned in the Joan Burton thread, simply raising minimum wage is less effective to get people off their arse and look for a job based on what they could have and it would be more effective reducing what they do have.

If JSA/JSB maximum rate was reduced to €150 per week I think it would be a good start. The guts of 200 quid for doing nothing is far too much, especially given the financial condition we're in. There also needs to be a steeply declining scale of benefits, down to €100 per week after 6 months if you have not secured a job or completed at least one free FETAC course in that time and be registered and completing one for the duration of the time you remain on the dole. If at any point you fail to complete a FETAC course during this time, dole is then reduced to €75 per week until one is completed or you find a job.

You'd be amazed how much more motivated people become when their comforts are taken away, and genuine job seekers would have no problem upskilling during the time they are on the dole and looking for work.

The dole in the UK for a single person ranges from £34.60 (€40.79) per week to £57.45 (€67.73) per week depending on age. I think people here could live on €75 a week if they're not genuinely looking for work and would take a massive strain off of the country.

I always say it, but you've got to be ruthless, you can't play politics at times like this. The wage rates and employment levels in the civil service are also something that needs to be completely restructured and reformed. People can threaten industrial action all they like, but the bottom line is that no reasonably person can honestly say that public pay rates (including welfare) accross the entire spectrum are reflective of the financial situation we are in or of the value to the tax payer from the jobs being done.

Imagine an efficient public service and slashed welfare expenses, imagine all the money that could be pumped into industrial and corporate assistance and subsidise etc. to get the economy moving, job creation would be ten fold and the coggs might start turning again. The key is getting people back to work. If businesses are being given tax and subsidy assistance to take off and are making good money (both domestically and / or exporting) then in turn they will hire more staff, who will not be claiming benefits and instead paying tax, the scheme would pay for it's self.

It's the sitting here and waiting for it to pass and not wanting to rock the boat that is killing this country. If a Government had the balls to say "look, you're getting too much, and we're not going to give it any more, but in the medium term, these cuts will be the spark to ignite the economy again and more and better jobs will be created by it" then I think it's a fair resolution for all. The Government needs to be realistic and tough here, not trying to bring in crappy little taxes left, right and centre to get a few quid here and there and try and gently pick the pockets from every where, as every little move like this just pisses people off more and more, just get to the root of it, tear it off like a band aid and use your time in office to try and have it turned around by the next general election. Sure there'll be uproar, but that doesn't change the fact that it has to be done.

V123

so basically Jackass - your answer is to cut the people on the dole and that will make the people working on minimum wage happier even though they are still struggling regardless of what the person gets on the dole?

Sleepy

Taking my own situation as a family of four with a single parent working and using the info available on the Revenue Website for Rates and the Deloitte Tax Calculator to judge PAYE Salary required:

Rent Allowance|Rate|Annual|
Limit for Family of 4 in Dublin|975 p/m|11,700.00|
less rent |35 p/w|-1,820.00|
|||9,880.00
Job Seekers Benefit|||
Main Claimant|188.00|9,776.00|
Dependent Spouse|124.80|6,489.60|
2 x Child Dependent|29.80|1,549.60|
|||17,815.20
After Tax Income Required|||27,695.20
|||
Approx Required PAYE Salary to Match||Gross|
Married||32,000.00|27,711.00
Non-Married||35,000.00|27,669.00

And that's excluding Back to School Allowances or any Exceptional Needs Payments etc. as well as disregarding the costs associated with earning that salary (commute, work wardrobe etc.)

I think it's pretty fair to say that the current welfare rates are a barrier to employment for many when the minimum wage (€15,743 for an adult) is almost half (56.84%) of what one could take in as a welfare dependent.

The dole is clearly pushing up the cost of living.

Prime example:

95,000 households are supported by rent supplement, which the Department of Social Protection says is about half of the total private rented market in Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0610/132059-rent/

Rents would be alot cheaper if it were not for the landlords dole

meathstevie

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's taken a while for it to sink in that the OP is NOT on the dole and the figures given are an EXAMPLE of a situation where a family would be better off on the dole and the point of the thread is HOW can it make sense to make more money sitting at home than it is to work. Hopefully that's the last clarification that will be needed on the thread.

Regarding your point OP, it is madness really. The situation you presented is pretty much the type of situation that many people wouldn't bother continuing in and that is a major part of our problem. Similar to what I mentioned in the Joan Burton thread, simply raising minimum wage is less effective to get people off their arse and look for a job based on what they could have and it would be more effective reducing what they do have.

If JSA/JSB maximum rate was reduced to €150 per week I think it would be a good start. The guts of 200 quid for doing nothing is far too much, especially given the financial condition we're in. There also needs to be a steeply declining scale of benefits, down to €100 per week after 6 months if you have not secured a job or completed at least one free FETAC course in that time and be registered and completing one for the duration of the time you remain on the dole. If at any point you fail to complete a FETAC course during this time, dole is then reduced to €75 per week until one is completed or you find a job.

You'd be amazed how much more motivated people become when their comforts are taken away, and genuine job seekers would have no problem upskilling during the time they are on the dole and looking for work.

The dole in the UK for a single person ranges from £34.60 (€40.79) per week to £57.45 (€67.73) per week depending on age. I think people here could live on €75 a week if they're not genuinely looking for work and would take a massive strain off of the country.

I always say it, but you've got to be ruthless, you can't play politics at times like this. The wage rates and employment levels in the civil service are also something that needs to be completely restructured and reformed. People can threaten industrial action all they like, but the bottom line is that no reasonably person can honestly say that public pay rates (including welfare) accross the entire spectrum are reflective of the financial situation we are in or of the value to the tax payer from the jobs being done.

Imagine an efficient public service and slashed welfare expenses, imagine all the money that could be pumped into industrial and corporate assistance and subsidise etc. to get the economy moving, job creation would be ten fold and the coggs might start turning again. The key is getting people back to work. If businesses are being given tax and subsidy assistance to take off and are making good money (both domestically and / or exporting) then in turn they will hire more staff, who will not be claiming benefits and instead paying tax, the scheme would pay for it's self.

It's the sitting here and waiting for it to pass and not wanting to rock the boat that is killing this country. If a Government had the balls to say "look, you're getting too much, and we're not going to give it any more, but in the medium term, these cuts will be the spark to ignite the economy again and more and better jobs will be created by it" then I think it's a fair resolution for all. The Government needs to be realistic and tough here, not trying to bring in crappy little taxes left, right and centre to get a few quid here and there and try and gently pick the pockets from every where, as every little move like this just pisses people off more and more, just get to the root of it, tear it off like a band aid and use your time in office to try and have it turned around by the next general election. Sure there'll be uproar, but that doesn't change the fact that it has to be done.

Where do you get the illusion that people in the public sector are earning too much ? If you looked a bit further than the stories that are pasted over all of the Irish media day in day out you'd quickly come to the conclusion that the vast majority of public sector workers are on very modest wages.

And as for subsidies to industry and all, first of all you may find that in a lot of cases direct subsidies are illegal.Second, the net result in real terms often only leads to nationalisation of costs in essence not too different from someone deciding that in their case work doesn't pay and the benefits system is a better option.

To an extent I can see some benefit in providing more support to business but on one condition; it has to be real tangible business that does generate real tangible products be it agriculture, food industry, oil and mineral exploration, high end manufacturing etc etc. The last thing Ireland needs is another shower of fancy knobs in expensive suits coming up with all sorts of fancy talk and books cooking to drop the cost of their mess onto the back of society when they disappear over the hill.

Sleepy

The largest problem with PS salaries is unfortunately a very unpopular fact to point out: many of those on modest salaries should in fact be earning low salaries. The largest wage discrepancies between the private and public sector actually exist for those their unions describe as "low paid" public servants who are in fact earning over and above what they could expect for similar positions in the private sector.

godwin

If you really think you're better off on the dole , at home arsing around watching daytime TV , loosing focus on yourself , then you really need to evaluate your life.

mariaalice

I think it is perhaps better to say that at the lowest end of wage rate ( if you have a family ) the difference between working and not working is not wide enought if you take everything in to account.

The issue is no ones life stay static and because of that you will always be better off working in the long run.

Sleepy

Or, as shown from my post above: the difference between working and not working is too wide to encourage people to seek work if they're unskilled or even semi-skilled.

The figures in my example show the welfare recipient getting the equivalent of over €15 an hour (for a 35 hour week) in after tax income.

V123

Sleep - that is 7.50 euro an hour more like as your example gave one person on 188 and the other as a depended spouse so it is based on two people claiming!

mariaalice

Sleepy wrote: »

Or, as shown from my post above: the difference between working and not working is too wide to encourage people to seek work if they're unskilled or even semi-skilled.

The figures in my example show the welfare recipient getting the equivalent of over €15 an hour (for a 35 hour week) in after tax income.

But what all the people complaining here don't seem to realises if welfare is reduced it wont make you any better off your income will still be the same but someone else will barley have en ought to eat, so in a way I don't understand the point.

Undoubtedly there are people choosing welfare over min wage working, but they are rare its like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

V123

you can only really compare this situation to a married couple both working minimum wage - and using the deloitte tax calculator that you used, a married couple both working on min wage would have a net income of €33,574.00

There is a difference of 5879 euros here based on your example of a couple on the dole with two children!

beeno67

Sleepy wrote: »

Or, as shown from my post above: the difference between working and not working is too wide to encourage people to seek work if they're unskilled or even semi-skilled.

The figures in my example show the welfare recipient getting the equivalent of over €15 an hour (for a 35 hour week) in after tax income.

A significant proportion of the "income" for an unemployed person in your example is rent allowance. It should be pointed the the vast majority of people on the live register do not get rent allowance. Only 85,000 get rent allowance. Of those that do get it, most would not get the amount you suggest. The average rent allowance payment in 2011 was less than 5,000 which is way less than the €11,000 in your example.

So while your example is possible, it would not be a typical example of the income of someone on the dole