better off on the dole

foxy06

Yeah I know it's another one of those threads but ive seen so many and didn't really believe it but after looking it all up and doing some research my family would be 50 € a week better off if one was on the dole and the other working part time. What is wrong with this country?

I think if childcare was more affordable or subsidised it would make a massive difference to this country. (Above situation doesn't even take childcare into account though)

john.han

Could you post the sums up please?

foxy06

I'm not going to put up my own personal sums but just to prove a point here is an example

Wife earns €150 working 19.5 hours a week Husband gets €188 jobseekers and €149 for their 5 dependant children. He will also get €118 for the wife as she is earning under the limit. they also qualify for fis as she is working the 19.5 hours required and they get 60% of the difference between €950 and their income which is €207. That is a total of €812 per week NOT including rent allowance/fuel allowance/Back to school allowance/medical card etc


Wife is working same job €150 per week. Husband is working full time €450 per week (take home pay) They also qualify for Fis at €210 a week. Total of €810 per week not including car expenses/childcare etc

donegal11

You can't get dole and Fis

foxy06

donegal11 wrote: »

You can't get dole and Fis

You are right and wrong. The person on jobseekers cant but the spouse working 19 hours min can.

jam_mac_jam

Maybe you should do some training or further education and get a better paying job?

V123

if the wife was getting fis then he wouldn't be able to claim for her as a dependent, the 118euro or am I wrong?

foxy06

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Maybe you should do some training or further education and get a better paying job?

Eh that was just an example? Please read the posts.Thats not my situation. Basically my point is why would someone in that situation actually go out to work.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

€150/19.50 approx €7,70 per hour which is below minimum wage

jam_mac_jam

foxy06 wrote: »

Eh that was just an example? Please read the posts.Thats not my situation. Basically my point is why would someone in that situation actually go out to work.

To improve their life, act as a good example to their kids, socially, maybe they like working, lots of reasons. I read the posts, you said you would be better off on the dole, if this is true you should think about training or what you could do to change it.

foxy06

V123 wrote: »

if the wife was getting fis then he wouldn't be able to claim for her as a dependent, the 118euro or am I wrong?

Now this im not 100% about but even if not it would just increase the amount of fis. It may bring them under what they would earn in the second situation but not by much and still med card, back to school, fuel allowance and rent allowance is to be taken into account. Also expenses like travel to work and childcare.

foxy06

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

€150/19.50 approx €7,70 per hour which is below minimum wage

Thats take home pay after tax prsi and usc

foxy06

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

To improve their life, act as a good example to their kids, socially, maybe they like working, lots of reasons.

Yes if everyone was like that there wouldn't be an issue. But in reality its not like that.

V123

at least when you have a job you have the possibility with time of getting a raise-moving forward, new training - but yes it is difficult and I agree they need to do something about childcare costs - especially if you are in a situation where it is really draining on your income (someone on the dole does not have to pay this - yet someone working has to pay this even if they are only earning a similar wage to someone on the dole so that doesn't make sense!

Mikehaw

What kind of example are you setting to your kids?

Seriously why do people view it as simply as ill get more on the dole so im not bothering my arse looking for a job. if you are able to work dole shouldn't come into it.

jam_mac_jam

foxy06 wrote: »

Yes if everyone was like that there wouldn't be an issue. But in reality its not like that.

No but plenty of people are, hence they work if they can.

V123

I find it strange that it almost becomes an argument of unemployed vs employed

Would you be happier if the unemployed got less? I don't think that unemployed people are living like kings but I also know there are a lot of people out there struggling that are trying their best to work

I think the real issue here is childcare costs and that is what really needs to be looked at! They should bring something in for people on a certain wage to help with these costs!

foxy06

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

To improve their life, act as a good example to their kids, socially, maybe they like working, lots of reasons. I read the posts, you said you would be better off on the dole, if this is true you should think about training or what you could do to change it.

Yes I could always put my children up for adoption. Your missing the point. I work. My husband works. We are both in good jobs we enjoy. Childcare unfortunatly is very expensive in this courntry and this, I think (and you obviously read in first post)is the reason a lot of people would think twice about working. The figures I posted are an example.

foxy06

foxy06 wrote: »

Thats take home pay after tax prsi and usc

Not appicable on that wage
Cannot get FIS and another welfare payment
€118 is wrong, more like €90

Give real examples not ones 'pulled from ones ass'.

foxy06

Mikehaw wrote: »

What kind of example are you setting to your kids?

Seriously why do people view it as simply as ill get more on the dole so im not bothering my arse looking for a job. if you are able to work dole shouldn't come into it.

Again. Example!

foxy06

V123 wrote: »

I find it strange that it almost becomes an argument of unemployed vs employed

Would you be happier if the unemployed got less? I don't think that unemployed people are living like kings but I also know there are a lot of people out there struggling that are trying their best to work

I think the real issue here is childcare costs and that is what really needs to be looked at! They should bring something in for people on a certain wage to help with these costs!

No I don't think welfare rates should be reduced. I agree completely that childcare costs are a massive deterrent for people returning to work and if this was subsidised in some way would encourage a lot of people who want to return but are financially constrained

foxy06

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not appicable on that wage
Cannot get FIS and another welfare payment
€118 is wrong, more like €90

Give real examples not ones 'pulled from ones ass'.

Again you CAN'T get fis and another welfare payment but a spouse who is working CAN

V123

yes its not fair at all - if a working family earn exactly the same or near to what a family on the dole get then the working family are at least -800to900 for one child down a month from paying childcare

foxy06

V123 wrote: »

the working family are at least -800to900 for one child down a month from paying childcare

Exactly my point.

Mikehaw

V123 wrote: »

yes its not fair at all - if a working family earn exactly the same or near to what a family on the dole get then the working family are at least -800to900 for one child down a month from paying childcare

foxy06 wrote: »

Exactly my point.

Well then let one of the parents mind the kids, ye are already getting child maintaince.

Again what example is it to children when their parents are scrounging of the state(choosing to claim something they are not entitled to)

foxy06

foxy06 wrote: »

Again you CAN'T get fis and another welfare payment but a spouse who is working CAN

Don't think so. You are assesssed as one unit.

Edit - Just looked it up and you're right, you can!

V123

yes and I don't see how anyone could disagree with that.

The problem is not the amount of money that people get on the dole as the government have worked out that this is what is the sum needed for them to live - the problem is people who are working on the likes of a minimum wage are not getting a standard of living that the government have set for family that is not working!

How do they determine how much a family needs to survive or live on? it must be some kind of mathematical method! its not like people can get someone to mind their children for nothing and go out to work so how can they not take this cost into account!

foxy06

Mikehaw wrote: »

Well then let one of the parents mind the kids, ye are already getting child maintaince.

Where was maintenance mentioned?

foxy06

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don't think so. You are assesssed as one unit.

Edit - Just looked it up and you're right, you can!

Good guess considering I pulled this out of my ass :-D

Mikehaw

foxy06 wrote: »

Where was maintenance mentioned?

Children's allowance:rolleyes:

foxy06

Mikehaw wrote: »

Children's allowance:rolleyes:

They would get that whether they are working or not though so for the question at hand I wouldn't even take it into account.

foxy06

foxy06 wrote: »

Good guess considering I pulled this out of my ass :-D

Sorry, it was a dig at the bankers tapes!

V123

everyone with a child receives children allowance

if your a millionaire with 10 kids you get paid the same amount as if you are unemployed with 10 kids!

foxy06

Mikehaw wrote: »

Well then let one of the parents mind the kids, ye are already getting child maintaince.

Again what example is it to children when their parents are scrounging of the state(choosing to claim something they are not entitled to)

Point is though they ARE entitled to it. The question is when a couple like that have to take childcare into account would they not just stay at home with one working part time than two working and one whole wage going on childcare? Would a subsidised childcare system not be better? Something to encourage mothers in particular to return to work after children. I know several that are yearning to work but just cant afford to.

Mikehaw

foxy06 wrote: »

They would get that whether they are working or not though so for the question at hand I wouldn't even take it into account.

Ahh didn't realise you you were that type of person.

Sure don't forget to add in the medical card and whilst your at claim rent allowance or what about a council house and fuel allowance.

Again you are some poor example of a parent if you scrounge of the dole(dole is there to assist people who have fallen on hard times and can't find a job not a choice). What will they turn out like watching one of their parents breeze through life without working, having a great life of the state

V123

yea Mikehaw - take away the medical card, rent allowance or what about a council house and fuel allowance - lets hope they get ill or freeze to death!

Foxy, as one who has had to rely on the dole at different stages, believe me it's best avoided if at all possible. It can be soul destroying. It's bad enough when you're on stamps, but degrading when you've to be assessed.

V123

I don't think its a case of wanting to be on the dole though Maryanne- its just a point that financially if you have to pay childcare and are on a certain wage - your standard of living is less than that of someone on the dole!

foxy06

Its the people that are forced out of work and onto welfare because of crazy childcare is the problem.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/economics-14082009-irish-welfare-rates.html

Our replacement net of tax wage - equalizing the value of benefits obtained by the welfare recipient (in the case of my model - single parent with one kid) to make them even with the wage earner - now stands at €31,102.

The above figure is not inclusive of Income Taxes, Income Levies, PRSI and Health Levy contributions exacted by the state off those working. So let us add this to the numbers above.

For PAYE:

Health levy adds 4% on all earnings below €75,036;
PRSI levy adds another 4%
Income tax and Levies (here) - €31,102 after tax is consistent with the pre-tax earnings of €39,870pa

Replacement wage for PAYE (inc PRSI and Health Levy): €43,059.60.

For Self-Employed person:

Health levy adds 3.333% on all earnings below €75,036;
PRSI levy adds another 5%.

Replacement wage for Self-Employed (inc PRSI and Health Levy): €43,191.17.

If we are to recognise that a self-employed person has to cover some of the costs of their work out of pocket, say 25% of the net revenue received in income (a conservative assumption if you need to operate some equipment, run a van etc), a self-employed person working in this country would have to generate around €54,000 in revenue in order to come close to breaking even with a welfare recipient!

Pre-tax average wages by sector (for All workers and for lower grade of P&M Workers):

Industry: All employees = €42,078 pa (-€981pa relative to a welfare recipient), Production & Manual Workers = €34,507 (-€8,552pa);
Mining & Quarrying: All = €40,435 pa (-€2,624pa), P&M Workers = €36,878 (-€6,181pa);
Manufacturing: All = €41,184 pa (-€1,875pa), P&M Workers = €33,675 (-€9.384pa);
Electricity, Gas & Water Supply, Waste: All = €55,286 pa (+€12,227 pa), P&M Workers = €46,592 pa (+€3,533pa);
Financial & Insurance Services: All = €56,742 pa (+€13,683pa), P&M Workers = €34,445 pa (-€8,614pa).
Minimum wage earners €17,992 pa (-€25,068pa worse off working than being on welfare).

Welfare spending now accounts for over 70% of the annual Exchequer tax intake. It is more than 37% of our current expenditure bill.

That is a disaster on the same scale as NAMA.

ardmacha

Welfare spending now accounts for over 70% of the annual Exchequer tax intake. It is more than 37% of our current expenditure bill.

While this thread has a real point, this is in the kind of sloppy use of statistics that undermines this forum. If welfare is 70% of tax, but only 37% of expenditure, are you implying that expenditure is almost twice tax take?

gaius c

Mikehaw wrote: »

What kind of example are you setting to your kids?

Seriously why do people view it as simply as ill get more on the dole so im not bothering my arse looking for a job. if you are able to work dole shouldn't come into it.

Trying to shame people into working isn't going to cut it. It's getting increasingly difficult for people on non-google wages to get by in this country. Living costs are increasing. Rent, mortgages, the price of groceries, transport, taxes: they are all going up. It also "costs" money to work. You need to be suitably dressed. You need to get there and back. You may end up spending over the odds on food.

We're at the point that I've no idea how single income families on average wages actually survive in Dublin at all. The dole must seem attractive in comparison.

wolfpawnat

V123 wrote: »

I don't think its a case of wanting to be on the dole though Maryanne- its just a point that financially if you have to pay childcare and are on a certain wage - your standard of living is less than that of someone on the dole!

Actually, taking into account all the costs, including lunches and the like, you are often worse off. I cannot afford a creche As a result, I am waiting for my OH to qualify so we can afford it and get on with our lives, away from the SW.

Ireland needs to get it's head out of it's arse and sort the cost of creches. I really think it should be based on income, not a standard rate. That way people can show their kids how to earn a living and have self worth, I really miss the pride of earning my money (never a fortune, but I paid my bills and had enough to live), when I used to treat myself to a top or a coffee and feeling I deserved it!

The government is cutting everything and taxing everything else rather than sorting things and allowing people to live productive lives.

daithicarr

I cant see how a family earning minimum wage could earn enough to survive.
you can either have one working, which wouldn't be enough to cover the basics of food, rent, utility's.

Or two working, with most of the second earners wage going on childcare.

I don't think raising the minimum wage is really an option given our current lack of competitiveness, but some serious effort has to be made to reduce the cost of living, thus reducing the welfare bill and increasing the purchase power of minimum wage earners.

Child care would be a great place to start to enable people return to work , even if its poorly paid work.

A friend of mine in Finland complained it cost 500 euro a month to have her two children minded. You'd be hard pressed to find that for one child here and ive been to Finland, its not the cheapest country in the world.

But then they do a lot of things better than us, better level of education for less spending per capita etc.

Godge

ardmacha wrote: »

While this thread has a real point, this is in the kind of sloppy use of statistics that undermines this forum. If welfare is 70% of tax, but only 37% of expenditure, are you implying that expenditure is almost twice tax take?

Non-tax revenue - fees, charges etc. may make up the difference.

gaius c

daithicarr wrote: »

I cant see how a family earning minimum wage could earn enough to survive.
you can either have one working, which wouldn't be enough to cover the basics of food, rent, utility's.

Or two working, with most of the second earners wage going on childcare.

I don't think raising the minimum wage is really an option given our current lack of competitiveness, but some serious effort has to be made to reduce the cost of living, thus reducing the welfare bill and increasing the purchase power of minimum wage earners.

Child care would be a great place to start to enable people return to work , even if its poorly paid work.

A friend of mine in Finland complained it cost 500 euro a month to have her two children minded. You'd be hard pressed to find that for one child here and ive been to Finland, its not the cheapest country in the world.

But then they do a lot of things better than us, better level of education for less spending per capita etc.

The key cost in this country is the cost of putting a roof over your head. Rents are tracking up again. Went to look at a place tonight with a queue at the door and the agent said 80% of their calls were from social welfare tenants desperate to find a place but they said no to all of them so it was just earning folk in that particular queue.

OMD

ardmacha wrote: »

While this thread has a real point, this is in the kind of sloppy use of statistics that undermines this forum. If welfare is 70% of tax, but only 37% of expenditure, are you implying that expenditure is almost twice tax take?

I've said it before but if Constantin Gurdgiev tries to work out figures he is almost always wrong. For an educated guy he really doesn't understand figures. Almost every blog if his I have looked at contains some error in its figures.

This is more sh1te from him. So many holes in it and then he compares gross pay, pre expenses (although he makes no reference to how expenses are 25%of self employed person to social welfare recipient. Why?

drumswan

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

To improve their life, act as a good example to their kids, socially, maybe they like working

None of this applies to working crappy minimum wage jobs.

Id rather be on the dole looking for decent work if the incomes are any way comparable. Sorry if that offends people.

[Jackass]

It's taken a while for it to sink in that the OP is NOT on the dole and the figures given are an EXAMPLE of a situation where a family would be better off on the dole and the point of the thread is HOW can it make sense to make more money sitting at home than it is to work. Hopefully that's the last clarification that will be needed on the thread.

Regarding your point OP, it is madness really. The situation you presented is pretty much the type of situation that many people wouldn't bother continuing in and that is a major part of our problem. Similar to what I mentioned in the Joan Burton thread, simply raising minimum wage is less effective to get people off their arse and look for a job based on what they could have and it would be more effective reducing what they do have.

If JSA/JSB maximum rate was reduced to €150 per week I think it would be a good start. The guts of 200 quid for doing nothing is far too much, especially given the financial condition we're in. There also needs to be a steeply declining scale of benefits, down to €100 per week after 6 months if you have not secured a job or completed at least one free FETAC course in that time and be registered and completing one for the duration of the time you remain on the dole. If at any point you fail to complete a FETAC course during this time, dole is then reduced to €75 per week until one is completed or you find a job.

You'd be amazed how much more motivated people become when their comforts are taken away, and genuine job seekers would have no problem upskilling during the time they are on the dole and looking for work.

The dole in the UK for a single person ranges from £34.60 (€40.79) per week to £57.45 (€67.73) per week depending on age. I think people here could live on €75 a week if they're not genuinely looking for work and would take a massive strain off of the country.

I always say it, but you've got to be ruthless, you can't play politics at times like this. The wage rates and employment levels in the civil service are also something that needs to be completely restructured and reformed. People can threaten industrial action all they like, but the bottom line is that no reasonably person can honestly say that public pay rates (including welfare) accross the entire spectrum are reflective of the financial situation we are in or of the value to the tax payer from the jobs being done.

Imagine an efficient public service and slashed welfare expenses, imagine all the money that could be pumped into industrial and corporate assistance and subsidise etc. to get the economy moving, job creation would be ten fold and the coggs might start turning again. The key is getting people back to work. If businesses are being given tax and subsidy assistance to take off and are making good money (both domestically and / or exporting) then in turn they will hire more staff, who will not be claiming benefits and instead paying tax, the scheme would pay for it's self.

It's the sitting here and waiting for it to pass and not wanting to rock the boat that is killing this country. If a Government had the balls to say "look, you're getting too much, and we're not going to give it any more, but in the medium term, these cuts will be the spark to ignite the economy again and more and better jobs will be created by it" then I think it's a fair resolution for all. The Government needs to be realistic and tough here, not trying to bring in crappy little taxes left, right and centre to get a few quid here and there and try and gently pick the pockets from every where, as every little move like this just pisses people off more and more, just get to the root of it, tear it off like a band aid and use your time in office to try and have it turned around by the next general election. Sure there'll be uproar, but that doesn't change the fact that it has to be done.

V123

so basically Jackass - your answer is to cut the people on the dole and that will make the people working on minimum wage happier even though they are still struggling regardless of what the person gets on the dole?

Sleepy

Taking my own situation as a family of four with a single parent working and using the info available on the Revenue Website for Rates and the Deloitte Tax Calculator to judge PAYE Salary required:

Rent Allowance|Rate|Annual|
Limit for Family of 4 in Dublin|975 p/m|11,700.00|
less rent |35 p/w|-1,820.00|
|||9,880.00
Job Seekers Benefit|||
Main Claimant|188.00|9,776.00|
Dependent Spouse|124.80|6,489.60|
2 x Child Dependent|29.80|1,549.60|
|||17,815.20
After Tax Income Required|||27,695.20
|||
Approx Required PAYE Salary to Match||Gross|
Married||32,000.00|27,711.00
Non-Married||35,000.00|27,669.00

And that's excluding Back to School Allowances or any Exceptional Needs Payments etc. as well as disregarding the costs associated with earning that salary (commute, work wardrobe etc.)

I think it's pretty fair to say that the current welfare rates are a barrier to employment for many when the minimum wage (€15,743 for an adult) is almost half (56.84%) of what one could take in as a welfare dependent.