Bishops have informed us that we're Pagan/ Ale, Irishness, Biscuits, Cake etc.

Corkfeen

According to frontpage of tomorrow's Examiner, we're all a bunch of Pagans according to the bishops and the priesthood will die out. They really don't have any respect for other religions..... :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/irish-have-become-pagan-some-catholic-bishops-believe-1.1440835

Yep, peddles the ridiculous idea common in this country that irreligion = paganism :rolleyes:

Doctor DooM

Robin/ Jernal, you're going to need a name change for the forum, not believing in God apparently makes you a pagan.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bishops-ireland-is-now-a-nation-of-pagans-234925.html

SebBerkovich

The Irish people “have, to all intents and purposes, become pagan”

Bishops have gotten together to solve the current crisis within the RCC and found that the real problem is with people rather than priests or policy. It was reported originally in the irish times

If i were to pick out a sentence which demonstrates just how far from reality catholic bishops exist... i'd go with this

“there seems to be a substantial number of bishops, and some priests, who believe that the problems we are facing are not due to any difficulties in the Church or with the priesthood, but are caused by a lack of faith in the people."

kennryyr

Ah, of course. Nothing wrong with the church. At all lads.

It's us. We are the bad people. Too into materialistic things. Allowing the sin to get in...

(PS I don't worship Thor now though, I worship Hel. Looks like I will be going to Hel after all)

smcgiff

Is this their way of flying the white flag?

NO PRISONERS!

Obliq

Had just read that myself - I was only delighted to see what a mess they're in and how at odds with each other as to how to solve the problems. I love that the Bishops are totally blaming loss of the faithful on consumerism and the fact that people don't care, and they reckon evangelism is the way to go?

Fab. Can't wait for more shouty priests, frothing at the mouth in the delirious ecstasy of their conviction. I'd find that far more convincing than the grey aul droners we have shuffling to and fro in mass at the moment, moving like sloths on a bad day. They creep me out much more than the more "PRAISE the LORD!!!" variety.

eviltwin

As the religious like to say, "there are none so blind as those who do not wish to see". You have to wonder though what is going on that they actually come out with these statements, how much further into the sand can their collective heads be.

lazygal

I wish they'd stop feeling like they can put everyone into boxes. I'm not pagan and have no wish to be. Just because people don't identify as a religion or trot off to mass every week doesn't mean we're a homogenous blob of lapsed Catholics. What gives them to right to label the population?

Also some people just don't 'believe' full stop - I'm one of them. I don't need to replace the Catholic stuff I grew up with with another 'belief' system. Its like its easier to say you believe in anything at all, no matter how daft, than nothing.

Zombrex

Expect to see a lot more of this as the Church slides into obscurity in Ireland.

SebBerkovich

These guys have never, ever lived without an overbearing religious dimension to their lives. I'm pretty sure they have no concept of what a life can be like without religion.

I think Carl Sagan can explain this best. They exist in 2 dimensions and have no capacity to understand a 3

Why don't ye go off to your trust funds and pope and tax exemptions before you start rabbiting on about materialism!

AlanG

Listening to the guy form the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP) on Radio 1 this morning he was basically of the view that the Bishops are wrong in seeing this as the cause of the churches problems. He know a report like this would be used to criticise the church but the Association of Catholic Priests seem to be an organisation trying to challenge the hierarchy and keep the church in Ireland more in touch with its grass roots.

I would say they would have a lot of common ground with many posters here.

Viper_JB

Materialism



:rolleyes:

smcgiff

Viper_JB wrote: »

Materialism



:rolleyes:

It's a bit like the pigs in Animal Farm.

lazygal

smcgiff wrote: »

It's a bit exactly like the pigs in Animal Farm.

FYP.

recedite

Its funny that the newspaper had to look to England to find a photo of "Pagans".
BTW I googled the "New Missal" as the priests seemed to be complaining about it, as if it was putting people off their religion;

The new translation of the Missal, which has been in use since Nov. 27, 2011, is more faithful to the Latin original than was the translation in use since the 1970s. In accord with a 2001 document on the implementation of Vatican II, the new translation is meant to be closer not only to the sense of the original Latin, but its structure as well, and is less informal than the 1970s translation

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/Missal/#sthash.wijEX6Gf.dpuf

So it seems the priests in this association are protesting at the strictures being imposed by Rome. I think these are the same guys that are talking about allowing married priests.
The question is not whether the rest of us are pagans, but whether these guys are protestants.

Ash.J.Williams

we should be very proud of our pagan past.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

The question is not whether the rest of us are pagans, but whether these guys are protestants.

Popette -- who's currently considering becoming a schismatic -- reckons they are.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

becoming a schismatic

Maybe that's what they mean by evangelisation. Form the Irish Catholic Church, instead of the Roman Catholic one. I doubt it would work though.
The marketplace for up and coming religions is already crowded.

Akrasia

As soon as the church gave up the latin Mass, the writing was already on the wall.

Religion is much easier to believe in when you don't actually know what the doctrines of the faith are.

The more access we have to the source materials for this dogma, the more bleeding obvious it is that it's all made up

The church has no hope of surviving in a modern educated world. This is why the evangelical religions are targetting the uneducated poor and less developed countries, and deliberately targetting the education systems to retain control of what information young people have access to in their formative years.

Even this strategy is ultimately doomed to failure, they can't turn back the tides of progress. Information will flow.

Sarky

Let's never forget the wonderful people who sealed the Church's doom by seeking to understand the universe, their tireless efforts will forever... What? They were mostly monks and priests trying to prove God? Oh. Awkward.

Corkfeen

Just a thought I had this morning, it strikes me as blasphemous that they seem to have no understanding of what paganism is and portray the entire country as such. Blasphemy law time?

lazygal

Corkfeen wrote: »

Just a thought I had this morning, it strikes me as blasphemous that they seem to have no understanding of what paganism is and portray the entire country as such. Blasphemy law time?

Everyone knows its only blasphemy when you're slagging Jesus. And maybe Mohammad.

old hippy

Quite insulting to pagans, I'd say. I did flirt with paganism and wicca many years back but it wasn't for me. It was just another set of irrational beliefs. Having said that, they were sound folks and not into being preachy or telling others how to behave/believe.

Sarky

The way I hear it*, those pagan gods were able to look after themselves. Slag the Morrigan? She'd come to your house and kick your door in.


*Note: Most likely not even close to the truth

Brian Shanahan

Sarky wrote: »

Let's never forget the wonderful people who sealed the Church's doom by seeking to understand the universe, their tireless efforts will forever... What? They were mostly monks and priests trying to prove God? Oh. Awkward.

I wonder how many of them were secretly pagan? Remember that in those days the church controlled all aspects of education, from learning the three Rs all the way up to going to uni. And when in Rome...

Bannasidhe

Akrasia wrote: »

As soon as the church gave up the latin Mass, the writing was already on the wall.

Religion is much easier to believe in when you don't actually know what the doctrines of the faith are.

Conversation with my dear departed Mass everyday grandmother on Vatican II

Nan: ' I don't think they went far enough myself. Apart from getting rid of the Latin Mass. I hate that.'
Me: 'Really? Why?'
Nan : 'Because now that I understand what they are saying I feel I have to join in. It would be rude not too. Before I used to just talk to my God while they got on with it up on the alter.'
Me: 'But Nan... Catholics arn't meant to talk directly to God.'
Nan: ':eek:'
Me: ' No. Really. Honest. You can look it up if you like. Catholics are meant to talk to God through an anointed intercessor only'.
Nan: 'An anointed what now?'
Me: 'A priest.'
Nan : ':mad:'
Me: 'Protestants are allowed to talk directly to God . It was one of the main reasons Luther broke away from Rome. '

She then announced that as her father was a convert to COI she obviously 'got it from him' and went on to say some very unflattering things about 'people who got a bit of oil dabbed on their foreheads.'

I questioned her a bit more about her beliefs and came to the conclusion she was really an Episcopalian or High Church Anglican but she was from that generation (she was born in 1912 and remembered the Burning of Cork vividly) who very much saw Irish nationalism and Roman Catholicism as being part and parcel of the same thing.

SebBerkovich

That is a big problem with ireland, The Catholic Religion and Nationalism are very intertwined. People feel that an attack on one is an attack on the other.
More so in the North of course.

Sarky

I was called partitionist for not giving a crap about Northern Ireland recently. People up there can be weird.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

I was called partitionist for not giving a crap about Northern Ireland recently. People up there can be weird.

You can imagine what I got called for suggesting that when all things are considered perhaps leaving the Union was not in the best interests of Irish women.

robindch

SebBerkovich wrote: »

People feel that an attack on one is an attack on the other.

Reminds me of that line in Angela's Ashes, something like:

Frank McCourt wrote:

And the teachers told me that I should be ready to die for Ireland. And the priests told me I should be ready to die for the Church. And I wondered if anybody wanted me alive.

Morag

I don't think the RC Bishops know what the word means, also there are plenty of pagan priests and priestesses. Ok Grant you I have met pagan atheists but there are not many of them. I do know that several pagans have written letters of complaint about being so besmirched by the piece, it will be interesting to see if any of them get published by the Irish Examiner.

old hippy

Sarky wrote: »

I was called partitionist for not giving a crap about Northern Ireland recently. People up there can be weird.

I got a similar response. Not that I didn't care, rather than I regarded it as a separate entity - not part of either the UK or Ireland.

shruikan2553

Morag wrote: »

I don't think the RC Bishops know what the word means

Pretty much what I think every time I read an article that involves the RC church saying something, last time it was the tax evasion thing.

SpaceTime

No priests and everyone pagan?? sounds fantastic!

Maire2009

Galvasean

It's common for people very close to death to blurt out random nonsensical sentences. It's probably the same for a church.

ardmacha

I think Carl Sagan can explain this best. They exist in 2 dimensions and have no capacity to understand a 3

You have a point. This is still one dimension more than the average thread in this forum though, or many other forums on Boards.ie.

robindch

ardmacha wrote: »

You have a point. This is still one dimension more than the average thread in this forum though, or many other forums on Boards.ie.

Any forum, and any thread, is nothing more than the sum of the contributions that posters, including you, make.

If you feel your posts here are lacking that vital first, second or even third dimension, well, post away and we'll see what you can do. Marks will be awarded for for effort, originality, dimensionality and anything else that anybody can think of.

Take it away, ardmacha!

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Marks will be awarded for for effort, originality, dimensionality nerdy pop-culture references, song lyrics segued into posts and delicious baked goods

Now THAT sounds like the A&A I know and love!

Hotblack Desiato

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I think Carl Sagan can explain this best. They exist in 2 dimensions and have no capacity to understand a 3

Sagan >> Pagan. :pac:


In fairness I think the pagan type religions were (provided you weren't a nubile young virgin being readied for sacrifice) pretty sound. A lot better than the Abrahamic ones anyway.



There is a (regrettably, short) thread in the Paganism forum entitled We've done it!!!!

eipi

This reminds me of the time when I was younger (~12 years old) when I told my father that I don't believe in god and he thought I was a pagan.
I think the term pagan i.e an adherent to polytheism, was used as a derogatory term by the church, comparable to the term heretic.So perhaps the government can put its blasphemy law into use.
It seems that now the Irish bishops have now redefined the term paganism to the acceptance of "materialism and consumerism".



“there seems to be a substantial number of bishops, and some priests, who believe that the problems we are facing are not due to any difficulties in the Church or with the priesthood, but are caused by a lack of faith in the people."

Yes, great overlords of morality and righteousness, it is just abhorrent that a proportion of the population are thinking critically and not living to the dogmas of the catholic church. Oh and don't worry about your systematic raping of children, just water under the bridge. :rolleyes:

Now that see the light, I realise that I am in fact a "consumerist pagan" I feel that it is my duty to begin my worship of all apple products, don't worry I'm not one of those filthy heathens that worships microsoft or even worse, those peasant linux users.:)

chughes

When the bishops come out with this stuff they mustn't realise that they sound like something out of a Father Ted episode. This kind of language might have been effective back in the 1950's but we've moved way beyond that. The more they come out with these statements the more the church is shown up as irrelevant. The church won't be destroyed by outside forces, it will bring itself down.

Morag

ninja900 wrote: »

Sagan >> Pagan. :pac:


In fairness I think the pagan type religions were (provided you weren't a nubile young virgin being readied for sacrifice) pretty sound. A lot better than the Abrahamic ones anyway.



There is a (regrettably, short) thread in the Paganism forum entitled We've done it!!!!

Most of the reactions I have seen are on private places on face book but there are a few of us who have written to the Irish examiner to lodge objections.

https://www.facebook.com/WitchesAttic

Doctor DooM

Of course, the really funny thing is, if I was to think of the people over the years who openly identified their religion, I would find that the pagans I know are by and large way nicer people than virtually any other religion.

I've certainly never met one that's tried to barge in on the education of my kids or bend laws so others have to live by their rules.

So... if we're closer to a nation of pagans than Catholics... that's bad how?

krudler

lazygal wrote: »

I wish they'd stop feeling like they can put everyone into boxes. I'm not pagan and have no wish to be. Just because people don't identify as a religion or trot off to mass every week doesn't mean we're a homogenous blob of lapsed Catholics. What gives them to right to label the population?

Also some people just don't 'believe' full stop - I'm one of them. I don't need to replace the Catholic stuff I grew up with with another 'belief' system. Its like its easier to say you believe in anything at all, no matter how daft, than nothing.

This would be a fantastic name for a new church

Turtwig

I'd love Thaedyal's (sp?) opinion on this. Church just like insulting minority groups it seems.

vibe666

is "pagan" another way of saying "less gullible"?

kylith

Hang on a tick... *googles etymology of 'pagan'*....

Did that bastard just call me a Culchie???

Turtwig

kylith wrote: »

Hang on a tick... *googles etymology of 'pagan'*....

Did that bastard just call me a Culchie???

You say that as if being a culchie is bad.