I need feminism because...

Ambersky

Ive been thinking about the issue of sexual violence and poverty mariaalice.
I was trying to figure out what was the relationship between poverty and sexual violence. If poor women were more vulnerable, why was this. I also had a concern that it somehow fed into the idea of poor men being wild and uncontrolled unlike men who are better off.
I did some looking into this issue myself and found that womens resource centers, feminist scholars and anti sexual assault groups are working on developing awareness knowledge and programmes for those dealing with the intersection of these two oppressions.
Thank you for setting me off on this search mariaalice

This is just an excerpt from an excellent article. Its long but worth a read.
In acknowledging the intersection of these two issues it doesnt propose that dealing with one will end the other but rather talks about how lessons learned in sexual violence activism can and should inform issues on poverty and visa versa
Poverty and Sexual Violence
Building Prevention and Intervention Responses

Feminist theory and empirical data from
the research both make a strong case for “interventions beyond the
personal and interpersonal” when addressing sexual violence (Lee, Guy,
Perry, Keoni Sniffen, Alamo Mixson, 2007). The same could be said for
addressing poverty.......

Perpetrators of sexual violence often target individuals who lack
power in the larger society, such as women; people with disabilities;
elders; children; teens; people of color; lesbian, gay, bisexual, and
transgendered individuals; immigrants, migrants, and refugees;
individuals who speak English as a Second Language; people living
in poverty; people with addictions or criminal records; the homeless;
sex workers; prisoners and others. Perpetrators deliberately target
individuals who will be less likely to report or when they do tell
someone, less likely to be believed or deemed credible. People living
in poverty are often either ignored or penalized by the larger society.
Therefore, poverty often serves to silence and discredit victims/
survivors, especially when it is compounded by other forms of
oppression and isolation.
Poverty

The available research shows a strong correlation between poverty and
sexual violence. Poverty can be both a risk factor for and outcome of
sexual violence. A cyclical dynamic exists between sexual violence and
the many factors associated with living in poverty. While not everyone
living in poverty will become homeless or use substances, it is clear that
many of these factors occur concurrently and are either a direct result
of sexual violence or increase the risk for sexual violence..

www.pcar.org/sites/default/files/file/poverty.pdf‎

Ahem I need these feminist women and men to do this work and to keep me growing and informed.

Frito

I think this idea that people can critically analyse is missed though claire, particularly in retrospective discussion following such crimes, and that 'precautions' are simply a list of things you shouldn't do, under any circumstance, in order to avoid rape.

Tigger99

Frito I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying people can take precaution against rape? What do you mean regarding critical analysis particularly in discussions after these crimes?

Ambersky

In some circumstances some women, sometimes, can reduce their chances of sexual assault and rape by doing or not doing certain things.
Women can reduce their chances sometimes. Women can not avoid rape.
Suggesting that women can avoid rape is also suggesting that the woman raped did not avoid it. So what did she do to cause this to happen? Where did she go that she shouldn't.
Women cant avoid rape because it is not in our control. So the woman who stays out of the dark alley goes to work and is raped by her boss. The woman who stays at home is raped by someone there, a relative or her husband/partner. etc etc Sexual assault and rape happens when you dont expect it, when you couldnt avoid it, when you tried to stop it, but couldnt. If you could avoid it you would, thats the point, you couldnt and it did.

Yes Yes Yes you can sometimes reduce your chances of sexual assault, you may be able to avoid that dark alley or you may live down there or you may be dragged down there.

While sometimes, some women may be able to reduce their chances of getting raped, the men can always just not rape.
So who do you think should alter their behaviour.

99% of the offenders being male

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

clairefontaine

Ambersky wrote: »

In some circumstances some women, sometimes, can reduce their chances of sexual assault and rape by doing or not doing certain things.
Women can reduce their chances sometimes. Women can not avoid rape.
Suggesting that women can avoid rape is also suggesting that the woman raped did not avoid it. So what did she do to cause this to happen? Where did she go that she shouldn't.
Women cant avoid rape because it is not in our control. So the woman who stays out of the dark alley goes to work and is raped by her boss. The woman who stays at home is raped by someone there, a relative or her husband/partner. etc etc Sexual assault and rape happens when you dont expect it, when you couldnt avoid it, when you tried to stop it, but couldnt. If you could avoid it you would, thats the point, you couldnt and it did.

Yes Yes Yes you can sometimes reduce your chances of sexual assault, you may be able to avoid that dark alley or you may live down there or you may be dragged down there.

While sometimes, some women may be able to reduce their chances of getting raped, the men can always just not rape.
So who do you think should alter their behaviour.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

Don't you think you'd be more effective at preventing rape if you petitioned for pepper spray or looser gun control laws?

What about prison rape?

What about boys getting raped in locker rooms?

What is your effective strategy for stopping men from raping?

Millicent

clairefontaine wrote: »

Don't you think you'd be more effective at preventing rape if you petitioned for pepper spray or looser gun control laws?

Yes because no one in America gets raped.

clairefontaine wrote: »

What about prison rape?

What about boys getting raped in locker rooms?

What is your effective strategy for stopping men from raping?

Education. Most rapes operate in the grey area--not the back alley or stranger danger rapes. Most are perpetrated by people known to the victim. Changing the mindset of people who view others as property to be taken--or who just feel that others' wants and personal safety come second to their desires--would be an effective start.

The fact that the Canadian "Don't Be That Guy" campaign appears to have reduced sexual assault by 10 per cent in Vancouver would appear to support that hypothesis.

clairefontaine

Millicent wrote: »

Yes because no one in America gets raped.



Education. Most rapes operate in the grey area--not the back alley or stranger danger rapes. Most are perpetrated by people known to the victim. Changing the mindset of people who view others as property to be taken--or who just feel that others' wants and personal safety come second to their desires--would be an effective start.

The fact that the Canadian "Don't Be That Guy" campaign appears to have reduced rape by 10 per cent in Vancouver would appear to support that hypothesis.

Ok so your strategy is an ad campaign?

How does a reduction by 10% in Canada support your hypothesis of "most" rapes everywhere?

Millicent

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ok so your strategy is an ad campaign?

How does a reduction by 10% in Canada support your hypothesis of "most" rapes everywhere?

Yes. I clearly said that my strategy was an ad campaign. Oh no, I said education.

Frito

Tigger99 wrote: »

Frito I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying people can take precaution against rape? What do you mean regarding critical analysis particularly in discussions after these crimes?

I'm saying that the usual precautions given are a list of what one shouldn't do, in order to avoid being raped, such as "why did they walk the route home instead of taking a taxi?...shure it's a sensible precaution, you wouldn't leave your house unlocked at night" etc.
Such precautions are just blanket prohibitions, and:-
a) they neither account for nor encourage individual risk assessment (maybe walking the route home was the safest, practical option in the circumstance?),
b) they encourage a false sense of security and divert from other risks-acquaintance rape being more common than stranger rape.
c) you could take every possible precaution and still be raped. This means for every rape scenario there is yet another precaution to be added to the list...until the next rape scenario.

In summary, my argument is that people take calculated risks, not wander around in some ideological shield they believe renders them invincible to sex crimes. When people talk about 'common-sense' precautions, I find they usually mean a list of prohibited activities that are impractical and greatly exaggerate the risk of the crime occurring, it requires us to give up liberty for little security. It's why I prefer thinking about it in terms of risk analysis...to encourage people to think about a risk rather than following blanket advice (which suggests complicity in the outcome if the advice is not taken) and includes the scope of positive risk-taking.

I'm aware it reads like a semantic argument, that it is as easy to say, "well I wouldn't have taken that calculated risk, what were you thinking?". But there is scope within risk to defend an individual's ability to analyse the likelihood of an untoward event occurring and respond accordingly, whereas 'precautions' do not allow this.

GalwayGuy2

The fact that the Canadian "Don't Be That Guy" campaign appears to have reduced rape by 10 per cent in Vancouver would appear to support that hypothesis.

Wait a second. The first time I heard that drop by ten percent, it was sexual assault. Now, it's rape? And how in the hell would you calculate that since a) Supposedly the vast majority of rapes aren't reported and b) that campaign was targeting rape that wasn't reported at all.

Millicent

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Wait a second. The first time I heard that drop by ten percent, it was sexual assault. Now, it's rape? And how in the hell would you calculate that since a) Supposedly the vast majority of rapes aren't reported and b) that campaign was targeting rape that wasn't reported at all.

I misspoke. I should have said "sexual assault". And how they calculate that drop is through statistics. There is nothing in the article that states that that campaign was targeting unreported rape.

Millicent

Perhaps we should all start wearing these:



It's the next logical step from not walking down dark alleys after all.

clairefontaine

Millicent wrote: »

Perhaps we should all start wearing these:



It's the next logical step from not walking down dark alleys after all.

Why don't you start a "Dont be that guy "ad campaign in South Africa or Yemen or American prisons.

Millicent

I need feminism because even on a thread called "I need feminism because..." you can't discuss anything gendered or feminist-related without someone trying to explain just how wrong feminist ideas and beliefs are or crying "what about the menz!!1!1!"

Millicent

clairefontaine wrote: »

Why don't you start a "Dont be that guy "ad campaign in South Africa or Yemen or American prisons.

I think educating South African men that baby rape doesn't cure AIDS would be a stellar idea actually. Not sure what you have against Yemen though. Do they have a particularly high rape rate? Don't know why educating its citizens about rape would be a bad thing though.

ETA: Just done a bit of reading on Yemen. Educating people that 10 years old is not bridal age would be fantastic, too.

clairefontaine

Millicent wrote: »

I need feminism because even on a thread called "I need feminism because..." you can't discuss anything gendered or feminist-related without someone trying to explain just how wrong feminist ideas and beliefs are or crying "what about the menz!!1!1!"

Which is exactly why you don't need feminism. As long as you hang onto partisan ideologies, you will get their counterparts reminding you how you are leaving out half the picture.

Millicent

clairefontaine wrote: »

Which is exactly why you don't need feminism. As long as you hang onto partisan ideologies, you will get their counterparts reminding you how you are leaving out half the picture.

I think that's for me to decide, don't you?

clairefontaine

Millicent wrote: »

I think that's for me to decide, don't you?

Just pointing out the obvious in case you missed it.

Millicent

Yeah, that partisan argument boils down to this: http://dosomecrimes.tumblr.com/post/49267162967

It's like white people bitching about positive discrimination or why the black rights movement doesn't include them.

clairefontaine

Millicent wrote: »

Yeah, that partisan argument boils down to this: http://dosomecrimes.tumblr.com/post/49267162967

It's like white people bitching about positive discrimination or why the black rights movement doesn't include them.

Exactly. Now you're starting to get it.

Millicent

clairefontaine wrote: »

Exactly. Now you're starting to get it.

You're gonna have to break that response down for me.

Sauve

Clairefontaine,
Do not post in this thread again

Femme_Fatale

YumCha wrote: »

I need feminism because there is no "epidemic of false rape reports" or a violence against women "abuse industry" with a "perverse incentive to keep case loads high".

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/the-group-that-believe-violence-against-women-is-a-conspiracy-20131001-2uqgc.html

There seems to be a disturbing rise in this kinda stuff - online anyway. I'd imagine it is partially a backlash against militant feminism, which IMO is inevitable, but what's scary is that it's gonna draw misogynists (not moderate men's rights advocates with very valid grievances) like magnets, and be quite seductive for vulnerable, easily malleable guys.

And then it feeds into the man-hating fringe's agenda, which feeds into the woman-hating fringe's agenda, and on and on. Worrying stuff.

Tigger99

I haven't seen a rise in that type of articles except by a few few on here.

I had this conversation with someone only this morning. Like extremes in any area, there are feminists who are moderate and, I believe, a tiny minority who are quite insulting about men. They are few and far between but they are used as an example trotted out by the likes of the guys above as a stick to dismiss the real concerns that feminism tries to raise and rectify.

Sorry, anyway, back on topic.

I need feminism because while it's achieved so much and I'm so grateful for access to contraception that was hard fought for, there are many more issues that need to be sorted.

Why can only 1 parent have access to proper leave after having a baby? I'd love to be able to share my leave with the father of my (potential, future) children, for many reasons including bonding, but also to get me back into the workforce with less gaps on my cv.

Ambersky

Sure there is still work to be done in many areas to bring equality to women’s lives and to improve the lives of women, men and children everywhere. That doesn’t mean that those who worked before did it wrong, it is just a continuation, a building on what has gone before.
The fact is it was women coming together talking about the things that were wrong in their lives and, taking these issues that were usually relegated to the private sphere by church state and society generally and bringing them into the public sphere that brought about changes for women in Irish society. Some women were happy to call themselves feminists and went into the politics of it all and others were happy to just get involved in a cause like equal pay or domestic violence or single mothers etc. There were always arguments about the meaning of it all and about the best approach to take to make change happen just as there is today.
As I keep saying feminism has always been accused of being too extreme, too militant and anti man. Even when women were simply looking for the vote they were accused of all of these things, even if all they did was argue for womens sufferage. I think all approaches are useful in bringing about change, everyone contributes, those who are militant, those who are diplomatic, those who argue logically and quietly, those who do public protest and actions, those who just do a bit of work and those who just get involved in discussions and question things.
Anyway here is a little timeline of some of the changes in law that has been achieved, feel free to add anything yourself to the list even if it is not a law. Of course it is one thing to change laws but hearts and minds need changing too, so work is definitely ongoing. There is still time to add your contribution.

The Changing World of Irish Women

1918 - Irish women over 30 granted the vote under the Representation of the People Act.

1919 - Countess Markievicz appointed Minister for Labour in the first Republican Government.

1957 - The Married Women’s Status Act passed, giving women control over their own property.

1958 - Garda Siochana Act provided for the employment of Ban Ghardai.

1964 - The Guardianship of Infants Act passed, giving women guardianship rights equal to those of men.

1973 - The Civil Service [Employment of Married Women] Act 1973 removed the ban on the recruitment or employment of married women in the Civil Service, Local Authorities and Health Boards.

1973 - The Social Welfare Act made provision for the payment of a deserted wives benefit and for the payment of an unmarried mother’s allowance.

1974 - Women’s Aid opened its first refuge in Dublin

1977 - The first Rape Crisis Centre opens in Dublin.

1977 - Irish Government gave effect to the 1976 EEC directive on equality by passing the Employment Equality Act, which also established the Employment Equality Agency.

1977 - The Government also passed the Unfair Dismissals Act which protected employees including pregnant workers from wrongful dismissal.

1979 - Aer Lingus appointed their first woman pilot.
- CIE employ their first woman bus conductors.

1980 - Mella Carroll became the first woman to be appointed as a High Court Judge.1981 - The Criminal Law [Rape] Act was passed.

1984 - A scheme of job sharing and later one of career breaks was introduced in the Civil Service. These were subsequently extended widely through the public sector.

1985 - The Family Planning [Amendment] Act was passed, providing a legal basis for the provision of a comprehensive range of family planning. All adults now have a legal right of access to contraceptives.

1985 - The Irish Government passed the Social Welfare Act [no.2] with the aim of implementing the 1979 directive on equal treatment in social security. For the first time married women in Ireland were to be treated equally with men and single women in the social welfare code.

1990 - Mary Robinson was elected first Woman President of Ireland.

1990 - Rape within marriage criminalised

1993 - Homosexuality was decriminalised

1995 - The High Court forced the State to pay arrears to over 70,000 married women who had been discriminated against in social welfare payments, due to delays in implementing the 1985 Social Welfare Act.

1995 Act to allow publications with information about "services provided outside the State for the termination of pregnancies". However, no publications that advocate or promote abortions are permitted.

1996 - The Domestic Violence Act was enacted, protection was extended to co- habiting couples, other adults living together and to parents regarding a violent child.

1997 - The Family Law (Divorce) Act was enacted in February 1997.

1998 - The Parental Leave Act was enacted, following an EU directive on Parental Leave, which gives parents an entitlement to unpaid leave from work to take care of young children.

1998 - The Employment Equality Act outlaws discrimination in employment on nine grounds – gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race and membership of the Traveller community( there is an exemption for church run organisations )

2000 -The Equal Status Act outlaws discrimination on nine grounds mentioned above in the provision of goods and services

2010, the Dáil and the Seanad passed the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act, recognising civil partnerships between same-sex couples.

iwantmydinner

Pyjama Man wrote: »

Tell me why feminism claims to be about equality but never seeks to reduce women's rights in instances where women have an advantage?

I'll tell you why, feminists generally speaking don't care about equality, they care about purely improving the circumstances of women even if that means reducing equality.

Where are all the angry feminists outside courtrooms protesting the fact that women get more lenient sentences than men for the same crime?

Nice generalisations there.

Amirani

Don't post in this thread again Pyjama Man.

Morag

Avoid being raped, Get a Taxi dont walk home late at night.....


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/student-i-was-raped-by-taxi-driver-after-night-in-copper-face-jacks-29631405.html

03 OCTOBER 2013

GARDAI have confirmed they are investigating claims by a young woman that she was viciously raped by a taxi driver as she tried to get home from a night out in Dublin’s city centre.


Gardai are treating the allegations as serious and have launched a full investigation into the incident that occurred in the early hours of Tuesday morning.

The 20-year-old student told detectives that she got into a taxi after socialising with friends at Copper Face Jacks nightclub on Harcourt Street on Monday night.

She has said that the driver of the licensed car took her to the Phoenix Park in Dublin instead of bringing her back to her flat in north Dublin.

According to her account, the man then raped her at a location near to the Wellington Monument just after 1.30am on Tuesday morning.

iwantmydinner

Morag wrote: »

Avoid being raped, Get a Taxi dont walk home late at night.....


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/student-i-was-raped-by-taxi-driver-after-night-in-copper-face-jacks-29631405.html

Next questions will be about what she was wearing and how drunk she was.

meeeeh

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Next questions will be about what she was wearing and how drunk she was.

As is already presumed that she was raped. Just to be clear I believe from the information available that she was raped. But the question how drunk she was is actually relevant because it could mean she was not even able to consent to the intercourse. The guy could have some weird messed up plan to avoid arrest but more likely he took advantage (in his mind) of extremely drunk girl and even typed her number into the phone to go on a date with her. So yes I think how drunk she was will be extremely relevant in this case.