Nursing jobs in Ireland don’t have to advertise here or fulfil Labor Mkt need test

NotCuteHoor

Nearly every job (except nursing) that requires a work permit has to be advertised in Ireland under the Labour Market Needs test. There is no legal requirement that Nursing jobs have to be advertised in Ireland/EU. The Labour Market Needs test does not apply to Irish Nursing jobs. I think all nursing jobs should have to be advertised in Ireland and comply with Labour Market Needs Test. The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation website is my source for this information.

http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/nurses.htm

paulmclaughlin

Is there an echo in here?

The King of Moo

Where is there any reference in that link to job advertisements? It's about applying for a work permit.

donvito99

Is this an AH exclusive, OP?

NotCuteHoor

Boards.ie locked my thread as they said I should provide a credible source for my information. My source is the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and I also gave a link to the information I quoted. My source was credible but thread was still locked.

L1011

I'm not sure why you seem so convinced you've discovered some big conspiracy when all you've done is found the website to renew an existing work permit.

GetWithIt

This will not end well.

Though I do predict it will end soon.

The King of Moo

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Boards.ie locked my thread as they said I should provide a credible source for my information. My source is the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and I also gave a link to the information I quoted. My source was credible but thread was still locked.

But your link doesn't have the information you claim it does. You still don't have a source.

IM0

a cute hoor you are not

genericguy

What is your issue OP? All nurses do is change bed pans and go on strike anyway.

Mint Sauce

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Boards.ie locked my thread as they said I should provide a credible source for my information. My source is the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and I also gave a link to the information I quoted. My source was credible but thread was still locked.

Its not creditable, as that link is not advertising a job, only advising people looking for a nursing role, on how to apply for, or renew their work permit.

It has nothing to do with at all, on advertising positions.

JustAThought

GetWithIt wrote: »

This will not end well.

Though I do predict it will end soon.

I know an Irish Nurse in a major Dublin hospital whose job it was to try an train overseas nurses up to speed; AFTER they had been recruited & signed contracts & been flown over to work on wards here.

An unqualified Irish nurse wouldn't be allowed be employed - but unqualified overseas nurses - no problem.

Really shocking.

One Of my parents was in Beaumont & Some Of The the nurses couldn't even communicate in pidgin English - makes you wonder how they would cope in an emergency trying to evaluate from a patient what was wrong/ they felt.

( and it wasn't cork accents
I was Worried about)


But sure not to worry - it'll all be grand.

LizT

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Nearly every job (except nursing) that requires a work permit has to be advertised in Ireland under the Labour Market Needs test. There is no legal requirement that Nursing jobs have to be advertised in Ireland/EU. The Labour Market Needs test does not apply to Irish Nursing jobs. I think all nursing jobs should have to be advertised in Ireland and comply with Labour Market Needs Test. The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation website is my source for this information.

http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/nurses.htm

As I said to you through PM, is this actually happening though? Are there Irish nursing jobs being advertised in other countries and not here?

Mint Sauce

JustAThought wrote: »

I know an Irish Nurse in a major Dublin hospital whose job it was to try an train overseas nurses up to speed; AFTER they had been recruited & signed contracts & been flown over to work on wards here.

An unqualified Irish nurse wouldn't be allowed be employed - but unqualified overseas nurses - no problem.

Really shocking.

One Of my parents was in Beaumont & Some Of The the nurses couldn't even communicate in pidgin English - makes you wonder how they would cope in an emergency trying to evaluate from a patient what was wrong/ they felt.

( and it wasn't cork accents
I was Worried about)


But sure not to worry - it'll all be grand.

You sure. To get a job as a nurse in Ireland, you have to be registered with An Bord Altranais, weather that be private or public. To get registered, you have to have a recognised nursing qualification.

NotCuteHoor

Sadly its true that Nursing jobs in Ireland don’t have to advertise here or fulfil Labor Mkt need test-this is the point of my thread. I hope you find the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation a credible source this time.

LizT

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Sadly its true that Nursing jobs in Ireland don’t have to advertise here or fulfil Labor Mkt need test-this is the point of my thread. I hope you find the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation a credible source this time.

And as I said to you - they may not be obliged to advertise here but are they definitely advertising the jobs in other countries and not here?

Mint Sauce

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Sadly its true that Nursing jobs in Ireland don’t have to advertise here or fulfil Labor Mkt need test-this is the point of my thread. I hope you find the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation a credible source this time.

We understand the point. But where is your link or prove? All you have provided so far, and I repeat, is a link outlining the advice on how to apply or renew a permit. That is not the same as applying for a position.

NotCuteHoor

My point is that they are not legally obliged to advertise here. Can you prove they are definitely advertising here and not advertising the jobs abroad- as you asked me to do?

Nodin

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

My point is that they are not legally obliged to advertise here. Can you prove they are definitely advertising here and not advertising the jobs abroad- as you asked me to do?

What jobs specifically?

LizT

The reason I asked is because your first thread was titled "No Irish can apply as the jobs are not advertised (nursing jobs only)". You can see how that'd be misleading.

R1200RT

genericguy wrote: »

What is your issue OP? All nurses do is change bed pans and go on strike anyway.

That statement just justified a fresh batch of popcorn...

pabloh999

If, they don't advertise in Ireland for nursing jobs in Ireland:eek:, that is an unbelievable disgrace .
This sounds too insane to true

It cant be true? Can it?

Mint Sauce

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

My point is that they are not legally obliged to advertise here. Can you prove they are definitely advertising here and not advertising the jobs abroad- as you asked me to do?

Can you prove they are definatly not advertising here? I doubt you can, as I have seen adverts for positions in private nursing homes, which you suggested did not exist in your previous thread.

L1011

pabloh999 wrote: »

If, they don't advertise in Ireland for nursing jobs in Ireland:eek:, that is an unbelievable disgrace .
This sounds too insane to true

It cant be true? Can it?

Its not true, and yet the OP appears to think that randomly linking to an unrelated site proves it.

pabloh999

irish-stew wrote: »

Can you prove they are definatly not advertising here? I doubt you can, as I have seen adverts for positions in private nursing homes, which you suggested did not exist in your previous thread.

Doesn't seem to make any sense.
The only advantage would be to import cheap labour, but don't nurses all make a standard universal wage?

Mint Sauce

pabloh999 wrote: »

Doesn't seem to make any sense.
The only advantage would be to import cheap labour, but don't nurses all make a standard universal wage?

Not really. Private home rates would differ from HSE rates. Different private homes would also differ. But would expect all nurses in the one home would be on the same rate, unless they were on a salary scale, ie, goes up the longer they are there.

The HSE though did recently recuit newly qualified at a reduced rate to exsisting staff, but this is a totally different issue to the one the OP is making.

KDII

As a tired and cranky nurse from a long day of bedpan management I anxiously await comments I can be offended by.

guppy

In fairness, I think the op is referring to the text at the bottom of the page stating that "No labour market needs test will apply to Work Permit Applications in respect of Nurses". I haven't a clue personally if that means what they think it means though.

Annasopra

guppy wrote: »

In fairness, I think the op is referring to the text at the bottom of the page stating that "No labour market needs test will apply to Work Permit Applications in respect of Nurses". I haven't a clue personally if that means what they think it means though.

I suspect the OP misunderstands what that means

Gatling

Been this is another one of these threads

Op saying one thing

Others saying its lies /veiled racist

So the question has to be

Is there a possibility that position's arent been advertised here are been advertised over seas and for what reason

Norfolk Enchants

Gatling wrote: »

Been this is another one of these threads

Op saying one thing

Others saying its lies /veiled racist

So the question has to be

Is there a possibility that position's arent been advertised here are been advertised over seas and for what reason

Of course there is a possibility. To obtain a work permit for a non EU national, the employer, usually, has to show the department that they advertised the job for three months and that they could not find a suitable EU/Irish citizen employee. Nursing positions are exempt from this rule. So the employer does not have to prove that they advertised the job to Irish/EU citizens first.

Annasopra

There are lots of nurse jobs advertised here. Its really not difficult to find websites with .ie domains advertising nursing jobs in Ireland.

http://www.indeed.ie/m/jobs?q=Nurse

http://www.healthcarejobs.ie/nursing-jobs__22.html

http://www.jobsfornurses.ie/

http://www.kcr.ie/countries/43

Norfolk Enchants

mango salsa wrote: »

There are lots of nurse jobs advertised here. Its really not difficult to find websites with .ie domains advertising nursing jobs in Ireland.

http://www.indeed.ie/m/jobs?q=Nurse

http://www.healthcarejobs.ie/nursing-jobs__22.html

http://www.jobsfornurses.ie/

http://www.kcr.ie/countries/43

Did you even bother to check your own links? The second one is for a position in Birmingham. I stopped there.

Norfolk Enchants

In 2008, 47% of our nurses were foreign born. One of the highest percentages of foreign born nurses in the OECD. I cant find the figures for 2013, but why are they so high? Do Irish nursing graduates prefer to work abroad? Do foreign nurses outperform them? Are foreign nurses easier to exploit?

IM0

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

In 2008, 47% of our nurses were foreign born. One of the highest percentages of foreign born nurses in the OECD. I cant find the figures for 2013, but why are they so high? Do Irish nursing graduates prefer to work abroad? Do foreign nurses outperform them? Are foreign nurses easier to exploit?

its simple really, foreign nurses bite their hands off to get a job here in the HSE while alot of the irish nurses turn up their noses at them, or at least they use to, not so sure about lately though

Boombastic

Didn't the government advertise here not so long ago for irish nurses fresh out of college for 2 year contracts but the jobs were not good enough for our nurses.? I for one welcome our foreign yellow pack nurses.

Rasheed

Boombastic wrote: »

Didn't the government advertise here not so long ago for irish nurses fresh out of college for 2 year contracts but the jobs were not good enough for our nurses.? I for one welcome our foreign yellow pack nurses.

The jobs were fine for our nurses. The pay on the other hand wasn't. It was little more than exploitation.

mikemac1

It was 22k salary

That's ok money for a graduate position

And there could be overtime going if someone wants to work more

Do graduates think 22k is too little for their first job and is exploitation?

Rasheed

mikemac1 wrote: »

It was 22k salary

That's ok money for a graduate position

And there could be overtime going if someone wants to work more

Do graduates think 22k is too little for their first job and is exploitation?

It's the whole package Mike. This happened in the 80s/90s too. Staff nurses were paid a low wage compared to other countries. Irish nurses were considered the best trained and were highly sought after so thry emigrated. Then in the 00s, there was a staff shortage and nurse recruitment had to go abroad. This is going to happen again, the exact same crap that the government should have learned the first time. It costs serious money to train a nurse in Ireland. As I said, we are trained to a level that the world over recognises as being one of the best. But when you are in a position where you could get €22k here or €43k in Canada for the same work? How do you justify staying here if you're in a position to go.

I understand what you're saying about €22k. On paper it sounds ok. But to work for 39 hours a week beside someone who is doing the same work at the same grade for 20% more is wrong. I think the major thing is, if you decide to knuckle down for two years, get your experience in the HSE, there is no guarantee that you will be given any sign of a contract. Nothing. You aren't going to climb the incriment scale. They just intend to just keep rolling out newly qualified nurses to fill these positions while you're left with no job.

This in turn will affect skill mix which is crucial to good nursing practice on a ward. To be in a hospital Mike, to be working on a ward, like I was when I started, where the care assistants and the domestic staff made more money than me, even though if anything happened, it was my PIN on the line, was so demoralising. To see how money is wasted in stupid places, all the administration, managers managing managers and you slogging for pittance, whilst getting abuse is hard to swallow every day. And that was before the 20% less wage was offered.

Annasopra

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Did you even bother to check your own links? The second one is for a position in Birmingham. I stopped there.

Yes. I did - there are lots more than UK jobs advertised. I can't help it if you stopped looking and then jumped to conclusions.

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

In 2008, 47% of our nurses were foreign born. One of the highest percentages of foreign born nurses in the OECD. I cant find the figures for 2013, but why are they so high? Do Irish nursing graduates prefer to work abroad? Do foreign nurses outperform them? Are foreign nurses easier to exploit?

No mystery.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/generationemigration/2012/11/30/nurse-come-quick-its-an-emergency-australia-needs-you/

Health Workforce Australia, an advisory authority to the Australian government, has predicted a shortfall of more than 110,000 nurses across the country in the next 12 years.

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/advice/green_card/how-to-go-about-getting-a-nursing-visa-138636874.html

Nurses have a special category of US Greencard.

NotCuteHoor

I am disgusted that the INMO (Nurses Union) have done nothing about this.

As there is a bar on recruitment of nurse in to the HSE (except for the lower paid two year nurse graduate role) How can hospitals be recruiting nurses overseas.

Are you saying that nurses already here on a work visa here should not have their work visa renewed and should toddle off home.

NotCuteHoor

I am saying the jobs should be advertised in Ireland. In other countries my friends who had work permits found that even after being there for a couple of years if their work permits were up they were not automatically renewed. The jobs were advertised.

Boombastic

mikemac1 wrote: »

It was 22k salary

That's ok money for a graduate position

And there could be overtime going if someone wants to work more

Do graduates think 22k is too little for their first job and is exploitation?

Don't forget the allowances for shift work and working in a hospital dept. Which brings it up to 27, 000... still not good enough

Nodin

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

I am disgusted that the INMO (Nurses Union) have done nothing about this.

....done nothing about the non-issue that you made up? I'm glad, as it indicates it isn't run by loopers.

NotCuteHoor

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

I am saying the jobs should be advertised in Ireland. In other countries my friends who had work permits found that even after being there for a couple of years if their work permits were up they were not automatically renewed. The jobs were advertised.

So you do want people on work the visa to go home by not renewing their work visas so in effete forcing the HSE to give the jobs to Irish nurses at rates of pay that are all ready established. Why did you not say that in the beginning.

Norfolk Enchants

mariaalice wrote: »

So you do want people on work the visa to go home by not renewing their work visas so in effete forcing the HSE to give the jobs to Irish nurses at rates of pay that are all ready established. Why did you not say that in the beginning.

A work permit is designed to allow a non EU citizen work for x amount of time in Ireland. It is not a permanent residency card. For example, in most countries, work permits will not be renewed for industries which have high graduate unemployment. Work permits fill short term gaps, whilst new workers are being trained in.

Mint Sauce

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

I am disgusted that the INMO (Nurses Union) have done nothing about this.

About what? The government department advicing none nationals, on how to apply or renew their work visas. Or the positions that are not being made available to Irish Nurses, that you have yet to provide us prove with.

NotCuteHoor

Allowing nursing jobs not to have to fulfill the Labour Market Needs test or be advertised in Ireland is a violation of European law. Why is it allowed to continue?

It also raises unemployment as Irish people can't apply for the jobs.
It creates hardship if the Irish nurses have to emigrate leaving family/older parents behind.

Nodin

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Allowing nursing jobs not to have to fulfill the Labour Market Needs test or be advertised in Ireland is a violation of European law. Why is it allowed to continue?

It also raises unemployment as Irish people can't apply for the jobs.
It creates hardship if the Irish nurses have to emigrate leaving family/older parents behind.

You're making this up as ye go along, aren't ye?