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British and Irish Lions vs Western Force, Wed 5 June 11am; Sky Sports 1

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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Funny, after dwelling on the game, I find I have to remind myself we won by such a margin. It feels like a loss for some reason, mostly because of the Healy injury and the fact the lads didn't get a real run out.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Tell you what, just looking at it again, Seanie showed some very nice hands today.

    Which is a further testament to Schmidt's coaching cause he had hands like an elephant's feet when he broke into the Leinster team.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Thoughts on the Game (i'm sad enough to have watched it live and also have re-watched it again in full since :o)

    1. This performance should help finally silence the doubters over whether BOD still has it. He does. No debate, no question, he's still the best 13 in the Northern Hemisphere, the best Centre full stop. Injury-free he starts all 3 tests.

    2. SOB and Heaslip were magnificent today in the loose. At the breakdown they were decent but no more than decent. This is where the complex decision lays for Gatland. If he puts a lot of weight on the breakdown area then the calls between Lydiate/Tipuric/Warburton/SOB/Heaslip/Faletau/Croft get even tighter. Make no mistake Croft is in the picture (imo), whilst he doesn't offer the raw power of some of the others he does a lot right, is a major help in the line-out and breakdown.

    It's really too tough to call, if the emphasis is purely on the breakdown (in terms of openside). But based on that performance today it would be a travesty if NEITHER Heaslip or SOB start the first test. One of them should be in. Both carried brilliantly. O Brien, as we all know, is a beast. Heaslip brought his Grand Slam form to the table.

    3. Best and Murray didn't do themselves too many favours, though in the case of Murray he had a very good 2nd half when on the pitch.

    4. Tommy Bowe still looked like he was getting match sharpness but with another run-out i believe his linking with Sexton/BOD may prove the difference in getting ahead of Cuthbert. North is a certainty imo.

    5. Whilst i dont see Evans usurping O' Connell, he certainly had a better game to Wyn-Jones.

    6. If Sexton gets injured we (the Lions) are in a bit of bother. Farrell and a likely Wilkinson call-up, will not suit the style we are trying to play. At all. That much is clear. Sexton attacking the gain line is crucial to what the Lions are trying to do. Fact is this - we dont need Farrell for his kicking. Halfpenny and Sexton is plenty.

    7. Based on the above, rob kearney will need a miraculously good game to even make it close with Halfpenny. Mind you, there may be a permutation to get both into the side, IF Bowe doesnt prove his match sharpness. I dont think Halfpenny offers anything superior to Kearney as a pure full back and i know i'd prefer Rob under the high ball for sure. It's just the kicking that is a clear separation.

    My Ratings

    15. Leigh Halfpenny: 7.5
    14. Tommy Bowe: 6.5
    13: Brian O’Driscoll: 8.5
    12. Manu Tuilagi: 7.0
    11. George North: 8
    10. Johnny Sexton: 9.0
    9. Conor Murray: 6.5
    1. Cian Healy: 6
    2. Rory Best: 6
    3. Dan Cole: 6.5
    4. Alun-Wyn Jones: 6.0
    5. Ian Evans: 7
    6. Tom Croft: 7.5
    7. Sean O’Brien: 8.5
    8. Jamie Heaslip: 8.5

    Halfpenny arguably deserves more but he cost us 70 metres by being caught way out of position and didnt offer much other than kicking. Drico made a few mistakes and escaped a clear yellow, otherwise he'd get 9, O' Brien missed a key tackle, Heaslip also cost us a few penalties in bad positions.

    The penalty count was quite worrying. Sure, it was the Force and we blew them away. But a penalty count that high against the Wallabies could be the difference between winning and losing.

    Which is why Warburton may just edge the Openside for the Test. We need someone crafty at the breakdown to help lower the penalty count and for all SOB and Tipuric offer at 7 in terms of go-forward, neither did enough on the deck for my liking.

    Loving the fact it's a Lions year, especially on a day like this nothing better than sitting in the sun watching it on laptop. The joys of unemployment :) Lions Tour has assured my sanity for 6 more weeks

    Excellent post.

    Do you think that perhaps the penalty count was high due to the nature of learning the refs?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    .ak wrote: »
    Excellent post.

    Do you think that perhaps the penalty count was high due to the nature of learning the refs?

    I'm not really sure there is much difference anymore between NH & SH refs. I think it's a myth. From where I was sitting, Glen Jackson seemed to ref no differently to Owens or Rolland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    .ak wrote: »
    Excellent post.

    Do you think that perhaps the penalty count was high due to the nature of learning the refs?

    Thanks :)

    I'm not positive if it was due to refereeing or purely down to the players adjusting to the defensive system still or just a lack of craft at the breakdown Probably a little of all three.

    What i do know is the scoreline ended up 69-17 but that's allowing for the fact the Force turned down 6 kickable penalties in favour of scrums and line-outs AND allowing for the fact our repeating infringing cost us a yellow card and arguably the ref was lenient in waiting so long to (mistakingly) card AWJ.

    We're not going to blow the Wallabies away and if we hand up an easy 12-18 points in Pens and have men in the Sin-Bin for repeated breakdown infringements, we're going to be in a lot of trouble come test time.

    I still feel we have the squad, ability and determination to get a series victory but these defensive issues need to be ironed out. There's no doubt whatsoever the squad is pure class in terms of attacking potency and we have plenty in the squad to give us go-forward. But the penalty count will kill that advantage if we don't tighten up.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭wavehopper1


    Swiwi wrote: »
    I'm not really sure there is much difference anymore between NH & SH refs. I think it's a myth. From where I was sitting, Glen Jackson seemed to ref no differently to Owens or Rolland.

    If it's a myth, then it's one perpetrated by coaches and players. Gatland said the players were getting used to the different style. Specifically, he said that at the breakdown the guy going for the turnover can only have one "nibble", then it has to be hands away. That might disadvantage O'Brien in particular who uses sheer strength to wrestle for the ball.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    If it's a myth, then it's one perpetrated by coaches and players. Gatland said the players were getting used to the different style. Specifically, he said that at the breakdown the guy going for the turnover can only have one "nibble", then it has to be hands away. That might disadvantage O'Brien in particular who uses sheer strength to wrestle for the ball.
    O'Brien was mainly the hitter yesterday so his first action should be to roll away. Heaslip and Croft were instantaneously on his shoulder once the tackle was made to contest the ball. There's plenty of versatility in that backrow. Fitness for the three tests will be the challenge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Leslie91


    Only got to watch the full game last night. I thought Sexton and Heaslip were outstanding. Closely followed by BOD and SOB. Thought Tuilagi played well also as did North. But the biggest surprise for me was Vunipola. Healy was doing fine but Vunipola seemed to be so involved when he came on. Contrast this with Cole who was pretty much anonymous. 1/2penny's kicking was outrageous. I'm hoping Bowe might get some more games because in form/100% fit I'd have him over Cuthbert.

    Thought the second rows had a so so game. No chance POC is not in the test team now. After a good start Best's throwing was terrible, Hibbard all the way now for me. Really disappointed that Rory blew his chance. Murray did better in the short spell he had in second half over the first, but when Youngs came on the improved speed of pass to Sexton was noticeable. I think Murray might miss out now and we'll see Youngs backing up Phillips.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    I'm not really sure there is much difference anymore between NH & SH refs. I think it's a myth. From where I was sitting, Glen Jackson seemed to ref no differently to Owens or Rolland.

    It's not a myth at all. It's fairly blatant.

    Even Thorny commented on it when he came up to Dublin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    It's not a myth at all. It's fairly blatant.

    Even Thorny commented on it when he came up to Dublin.

    Source?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    Source?

    Oh wow I have no idea now. I'll have to go looking for it again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Oh wow I have no idea now. I'll have to go looking for it again.

    You're grand, I'll take your word for it. There are differences between refs but I don't buy that all SH refs are uniformly different to all NH refs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Swiwi wrote: »
    You're grand, I'll take your word for it. There are differences between refs but I don't buy that all SH refs are uniformly different to all NH refs.

    Biggest difference I notice is how lax the SH officials are towards forward passes, at least in Super 15. Don't see much difference at breakdown and the scrum is a mystery in all hemispheres.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Swiwi wrote: »
    You're grand, I'll take your word for it. There are differences between refs but I don't buy that all SH refs are uniformly different to all NH refs.

    Yep. Its down to personalities and styles. Different refs have different strengths and weaknesses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Sky are not fair and balanced.

    I suspect that's a myth but anyway.

    On commentary I believe Barnes said that if it were up to him he'd give SOB the man of the match award. I think the Australian TV channel covering the series hand out the Man of the Match award.

    Halfpenny was excellent on Wednesday and barring a miracle has the 15 shirt for himself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi wrote: »
    You're grand, I'll take your word for it. There are differences between refs but I don't buy that all SH refs are uniformly different to all NH refs.

    Think it might have been that long interview Thornley did with him.

    He said the referees in the SH want to breakdown cleared much quicker.

    However in this game I thought Jackson was pretty much spot on to he honest!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Think it might have been that long interview Thornley did with him.

    He said the referees in the SH want to breakdown cleared much quicker.

    However in this game I thought Jackson was pretty much spot on to he honest!

    There was also talk that refs in NZ wanted scrums concluded in six seconds but not sure they ever managed that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    First Up wrote: »
    There was also talk that refs in NZ wanted scrums concluded in six seconds but not sure they ever managed that.

    Well they definitely get the breakdown cleared much quicker. You can see it in the Super XV


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    I think that is as much the style of play of play as anything to do with the refs. They commit so few to the breakdown it looks like Rugby League at times.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,013 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    First Up wrote: »
    I think that is as much the style of play of play as anything to do with the refs. They commit so few to the breakdown it looks like Rugby League at times.

    Agreed, its a different mindset....

    there seems to be a quicker realisation if theres a chance of a turn over or not.

    NH seem to jackle in a lot more cases, which is helpful to slow ball down.

    Both styles have advantages and disadvantages.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    There is an element of made for TV about Super 15. That and the usually better conditions.


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