British and Irish Lions vs Western Force, Wed 5 June 11am; Sky Sports 1

monkeybutter

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Today's game was one where WF would rely on isolating players at a breakdown with the hope stifling open play, turning over and catching the defense on the back foot, winning penalty ball or a mix of all three; in short it's a day for hard running loose forwards as distinct to requiring a vintage open side disrupting the 5/8 feed.

When it comes to playing the isolated game there are few better in the world than SOB, which is why he and Heaslip were picked today and precisely why they both had big games. If the game needs a forward to play vintage 7 then SOB can do that. However, the modern game has evolved and today open side is more a general skill set for all the back row to employ than a specialist position that it once was.

On that note it follows that SOB wouldn't shine as a out and out 7 from todays game should you choose to typecast him as one. Had Tipuric played today he'd not have fitted into your stiff mould either

Re-watch the 2009 Lions, Brussow tore the lions apart, in fact I reckon he won them the Series as no one could stop him winning turn overs. The running is as hard in SA as it is anywhere else.

Pocock is the same, he would have caused us serious problems in the world cup and the lions are lucky he is out

Warburton destroyed us in the World Cup with the same type of play.

This is number 7 play at it's best and why it is still a specialist position.

monkeybutter

Ruck Inspector wrote: »

Sky are not fair and balanced.

How insightful of you

monkeybutter

Buer wrote: »

Halfpenny is 82% for Wales this season. He's a very good kicker. Not amazing.

Three cheers for Leigh Halfpenny. Very good. Very good.

This is Leigh 'Player of the 6 nations' Halfpenny you are speaking of


Anyway, lets hope the Reds are a sterner Test at the weekend and we keep the injuries down

Buer

monkeybutter wrote: »

Re-watch the 2009 Lions, Brussow tore the lions apart, in fact I reckon he won them the Series as no one could stop him winning turn overs.

That'd be the lad that was taken off after 50 minutes of the first test and dropped for the second test.

rockbeast

Buer wrote: »

That'd be the lad that was taken off after 50 minutes of the first test and dropped for the second test.

Quiet, now, monkeyb is on a roll:rolleyes:

norrie rugger

even in that highlight reel above, the amount of high tackles is worrying. half of the upper body tackles end up with the player in a headlock on the ground

monkeybutter

Buer wrote: »

That'd be the lad that was taken off after 50 minutes of the first test and dropped for the second test.

Yeah the one who scored their 3rd try, the winning one in fact and who after he went off the score went from 26-7 to 26-21 almost entirely down to his loss of influence and the lions finally being able to get into the game

is that the one?

monkeybutter

monkeybutter wrote: »

Yeah the one who scored their 3rd try, the winning one in fact and who after he went off the score went from 26-7 to 26-21 almost entirely down to his loss of influence and the lions finally being able to get into the game

is that the one?

In fact his removal and it's effects were akin to Hill being taken off injured in the 2001 Lions tour, it was that vast.

monkeybutter

Oh yeah and the same one who the Saffers were losing the second game but magically started winning just after he came on

Great summary on Wikipedia I must say

• 20 June 2009 : South Africa vs British and Irish Lions I: Heinrich Brüssow replaces injured Schalk Burger in the starting line-up. His ball-stealing and recovering skills proved too much for the Lions. When he was replaced in the second half, the Lions managed to fight back, but not enough to win the game. Scored a try from the back of a maul and was outstanding as they went on to secure a 2-1 series victory.
• 27 June 2009 : South Africa vs Lions II: Brüssow came on in the 62nd minute and effected a few crucial turn-overs helping seal the 28-25 victory for the South Africans.

ongarite

Healy has been cited for the alleged bite.
Tour over for sure if he loses the hearing.

monkeybutter

rockbeast wrote: »

Quiet, now, monkeyb is on a roll:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

rockbeast

monkeybutter wrote: »

:rolleyes:

you just hurt my feelings. Lose the chip and you might be an interesting poster.

Swan Curry

ongarite wrote: »

Healy has been cited for the alleged bite.
Tour over for sure if he loses the hearing.

Is there any footage of the bite.The way the WF 9 was acting during the match makes it difficult to believe him on his word alone.

seanm92

Swan Curry wrote: »

Is there any footage of the bite.The way the WF 9 was acting during the match makes it difficult to believe him on his word alone.

Th ref lokked at it at the time but TBH it was inconclusive, it was impossible to see a bite, however, Sheehan's forearm was around Healy's mouth/face area so it's possible. It'd be very hard to prove unless the player had some kind of bite mark I'd say

monkeybutter

Swan Curry wrote: »

Is there any footage of the bite.The way the WF 9 was acting during the match makes it difficult to believe him on his word alone.

Yeah, I doubt anything will come of it. From watching the replay they showed on sky there was no sign of biting.

madds

monkeybutter wrote: »

He is the 3rd best kicking option we have, maybe 4th, havent seen much of Hogg.

I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but after this statement you are now on Ignore.

monkeybutter

madds wrote: »

I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but after this statement you are now on Ignore.

I havent seen much of Hogg kicking

is that better

wonderfullife

Thoughts on the Game (i'm sad enough to have watched it live and also have re-watched it again in full since )

1. This performance should help finally silence the doubters over whether BOD still has it. He does. No debate, no question, he's still the best 13 in the Northern Hemisphere, the best Centre full stop. Injury-free he starts all 3 tests.

2. SOB and Heaslip were magnificent today in the loose. At the breakdown they were decent but no more than decent. This is where the complex decision lays for Gatland. If he puts a lot of weight on the breakdown area then the calls between Lydiate/Tipuric/Warburton/SOB/Heaslip/Faletau/Croft get even tighter. Make no mistake Croft is in the picture (imo), whilst he doesn't offer the raw power of some of the others he does a lot right, is a major help in the line-out and breakdown.

It's really too tough to call, if the emphasis is purely on the breakdown (in terms of openside). But based on that performance today it would be a travesty if NEITHER Heaslip or SOB start the first test. One of them should be in. Both carried brilliantly. O Brien, as we all know, is a beast. Heaslip brought his Grand Slam form to the table.

3. Best and Murray didn't do themselves too many favours, though in the case of Murray he had a very good 2nd half when on the pitch.

4. Tommy Bowe still looked like he was getting match sharpness but with another run-out i believe his linking with Sexton/BOD may prove the difference in getting ahead of Cuthbert. North is a certainty imo.

5. Whilst i dont see Evans usurping O' Connell, he certainly had a better game to Wyn-Jones.

6. If Sexton gets injured we (the Lions) are in a bit of bother. Farrell and a likely Wilkinson call-up, will not suit the style we are trying to play. At all. That much is clear. Sexton attacking the gain line is crucial to what the Lions are trying to do. Fact is this - we dont need Farrell for his kicking. Halfpenny and Sexton is plenty.

7. Based on the above, rob kearney will need a miraculously good game to even make it close with Halfpenny. Mind you, there may be a permutation to get both into the side, IF Bowe doesnt prove his match sharpness. I dont think Halfpenny offers anything superior to Kearney as a pure full back and i know i'd prefer Rob under the high ball for sure. It's just the kicking that is a clear separation.

My Ratings

15. Leigh Halfpenny: 7.5
14. Tommy Bowe: 6.5
13: Brian O’Driscoll: 8.5
12. Manu Tuilagi: 7.0
11. George North: 8
10. Johnny Sexton: 9.0
9. Conor Murray: 6.5
1. Cian Healy: 6
2. Rory Best: 6
3. Dan Cole: 6.5
4. Alun-Wyn Jones: 6.0
5. Ian Evans: 7
6. Tom Croft: 7.5
7. Sean O’Brien: 8.5
8. Jamie Heaslip: 8.5

Halfpenny arguably deserves more but he cost us 70 metres by being caught way out of position and didnt offer much other than kicking. Drico made a few mistakes and escaped a clear yellow, otherwise he'd get 9, O' Brien missed a key tackle, Heaslip also cost us a few penalties in bad positions.

The penalty count was quite worrying. Sure, it was the Force and we blew them away. But a penalty count that high against the Wallabies could be the difference between winning and losing.

Which is why Warburton may just edge the Openside for the Test. We need someone crafty at the breakdown to help lower the penalty count and for all SOB and Tipuric offer at 7 in terms of go-forward, neither did enough on the deck for my liking.

Loving the fact it's a Lions year, especially on a day like this nothing better than sitting in the sun watching it on laptop. The joys of unemployment Lions Tour has assured my sanity for 6 more weeks

rockbeast

wonderfullife wrote: »

Thoughts on the Game (i'm sad enough to have watched it live and also have re-watched it again in full since )

Good review. Thanks. Don't agree with Evans opinion but best thoughts written for hours. cheers

Buer

monkeybutter wrote: »

Great summary on Wikipedia I must say

Glad to see you've gone to a bit of trouble to try and support your opinion this time but I wouldn't rely on Wikipedia ever as a source given its nature.

S.A. removed a host of players in the first game and didn't concede until their front five, who had bossed the game, started going off. Their front five absolutely battered the Lions in the tight and, when the game was safe, they took them off. Long after Brussow had gone.

Second test was just exhaustion from the Lions. Again, they couldn't handle the power and were decimated by injuries. They were torn open in the backs when they had to reshuffle completely with injuries.

Brussow had good displays but was far, far from the "he won them the series" performances you're attempting to claim.

Lelantos

Missed it at the time, but it seems the ref stopped the clock & went upstairs to view the alleged biting incident when the Force player complained, surely that is not allowed?

BBDBB

I may be wrong, but video isn't the only evidence that would get looked at, re the alleged biting incident, there would be a doctors report on the 'damage' done that would be considered as well as the testimony or any still frame photos yet to be published. What Im saying is that he could still be found guilty even without video evidence.

(Im basing this on a memory of the Dupuy eye gouge on Ferris and the evidence presented at the time)

tolosenc

Warburton has his work cut out for him if he plans on justifying his starting place on the Test team. Reckon we could see an all Welsh back 3, though - have to see Kearney first.

So far, for the backs, I'd go for Phillips, Sexton, Halfpenny, Tuilagi, O'Driscoll, Cuthbert, Hogg with Youngs, Farrell and North on the bench.

Back row I'd pick after the first two games is O'Brien, Tipuric, Heaslip with Croft on the bench.
Second row so far is AWJ and POC with Gray on the bench.

Front row depends on Healy hugely - ideally we'll have Healy to start and Vunipola on the bench. Jones and Hibbard to start elsewhere, with Cole and Youngs on the bench.

jamiedav2011

Tell you what, just looking at it again, Seanie showed some very nice hands today.

English Lurker

wonderfullife wrote: »

Thoughts on the Game (i'm sad enough to have watched it live and also have re-watched it again in full since )

1. This performance should help finally silence the doubters over whether BOD still has it. He does. No debate, no question, he's still the best 13 in the Northern Hemisphere, the best Centre full stop. Injury-free he starts all 3 tests.

2. SOB and Heaslip were magnificent today in the loose. At the breakdown they were decent but no more than decent. This is where the complex decision lays for Gatland. If he puts a lot of weight on the breakdown area then the calls between Lydiate/Tipuric/Warburton/SOB/Heaslip/Faletau/Croft get even tighter. Make no mistake Croft is in the picture (imo), whilst he doesn't offer the raw power of some of the others he does a lot right, is a major help in the line-out and breakdown.

It's really too tough to call, if the emphasis is purely on the breakdown (in terms of openside). But based on that performance today it would be a travesty if NEITHER Heaslip or SOB start the first test. One of them should be in. Both carried brilliantly. O Brien, as we all know, is a beast. Heaslip brought his Grand Slam form to the table.

O'Brien was very good, but he made a couple of mistakes, and would be below Heaslip's performance anyway in my opinion. I don't think I've see Heaslip play so well, not even in 2009 (granted, lesser level of opposition now). Quite incredible level of performance, and the only reason I wouldn't ink his name in is Faletau played very well when he came on too. And O'Brien could pitch for 8 too. Was an absolute joy to see him return to the levels he set himself in international rugby though.

5. Whilst i dont see Evans usurping O' Connell, he certainly had a better game to Wyn-Jones.

Personally think you've got this wrong way about.

Btw, here's hoping Healy is fine, and nothing comes of the chomping citing.

First Up

English Lurker wrote: »

O'Brien was very good, but he made a couple of mistakes, and would be below Heaslip's performance anyway in my opinion. I don't think I've see Heaslip play so well, not even in 2009 (granted, lesser level of opposition now). Quite incredible level of performance, and the only reason I wouldn't ink his name in is Faletau played very well when he came on too. And O'Brien could pitch for 8 too. Was an absolute joy to see him return to the levels he set himself in international rugby though.

Ih

Personally think you've got this wrong way about.

Btw, here's hoping Healy is fine, and nothing comes of the chomping citing.

If Healy is suspended, can he be replaced if also injured?

First Up

First Up wrote: »

If Healy is suspended, can he be replaced if also injured?

I am not sure, but from various comments I think that has been put to bed and nothing will come of it at this stage.

Personally I don't see Healy as the sort, and would have been extremely surprised had anything come of it.

English Lurker

First Up wrote: »

If Healy is suspended, can he be replaced if also injured?

They've already called up Corbisiero as a precaution, so presumably yes. Really, the only set number on the amount of Lions that I'm aware of is "How many does the coach want".

First Up

English Lurker wrote: »

They've already called up Corbisiero as a precaution, so presumably yes. Really, the only set number on the amount of Lions that I'm aware of is "How many does the coach want".

Fair enough. Presumably Australia have a free hand as well. Not like a WC when you have to stick to a squad of a limited size. Looks like he's gone anyway.

Grimebox

Full match just went up on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzAgowOPry4