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The property tax deadline has passed, did you pay?

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    #152
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    SamHall wrote: »
    I can think of more than a few flaws in your sentiment here.

    A world where no one could own anything without buying it outright without finance?

    That'll work.
    You need to decide what you are complaining about here: there's no obligation to own a house - many of my friends never have. If you buy something, you own it. If you own it, you should be taxed on it. How you financed it is your own business.

    Are you opposed to debt? Are you opposed to wealth taxes? What exactly is the objection?


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    #153
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Bradanfeasa wrote: »
    I'm not talking about all taxes (I pay plenty of other taxes). I am only talking about the Household charge/Property tax - it's a scam & the Irish people need to wake up, see the scam & challenge it.
    But if there's a loophole - as you seem to think - with regard to property tax, then it applies to all other taxes too.


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    #154
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Are you opposed to this exemption for empty houses, or for it?

    The exemption you were seemingly unaware of until now?

    What's your thoughts on it now it's been brought to your attention?


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    #155
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    SamHall wrote: »
    The exemption you were seemingly unaware of until now?
    The discussion was about residential owners, was it not? So are you opposed to it or not?
    SamHall wrote: »
    What's your thoughts on it now it's been brought to your attention?
    Personally, I'm opposed to such an exemption for anyone - it incentivises developers to keep property off the market, propping up prices.

    What are your thoughts on it? Exemptions for all? Exemptions for none?


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    #156
    cosbloodymick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭cosbloodymick


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    You need to decide what you are complaining about here: there's no obligation to own a house - many of my friends never have. If you buy something, you own it. If you own it, you should be taxed on it. How you financed it is your own business.

    Are you opposed to debt? Are you opposed to wealth taxes? What exactly is the objection?


    I am opposed to the idea that anything I own is fair game for the government to take, absolutely.


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    #157
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    You need to decide what you are complaining about here: there's no obligation to own a house - many of my friends never have. If you buy something, you own it. If you own it, you should be taxed on it. How you financed it is your own business.

    Again, few flaws in this post. The obligation to own a house is irrelevant to the people who've already bought one. This tax came in afterwards, from a govt who supposedly thought it was unfair pre election.

    Hundreds of thousands of homeowners in this country do not own their own homes outright, (you've acknowledged the mortgage arrears crisis)


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Are you opposed to debt? Are you opposed to wealth taxes? What exactly is the objection?

    I'm not opposed to debt why would you ask that?

    I'm not opposed to a wealth taxes either. You're still to explain to me what wealth is in a home that's in mortgage arrears, worth maybe half/a third of the actual mortgage secured against it.

    I'm struggling to find it tbh.


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    #158
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    cosbloodymick wrote: »
    I am opposed to the idea that anything I own is fair game for the government to take, absolutely.
    So you don't drive a car, or you protest motor tax too?


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    #159
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    So you don't drive a car, or you protest motor tax too?

    Is there an option to tax a house for a quarter of the year?

    The car tax/home tax argument is a ridiculous one that sadly keeps getting regurgitated.


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    #160
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    SamHall wrote: »
    Again, few flaws in this post.
    Jeez Sam, your posting style is very patronising. You are wearing me out. I deal with points you make, I don't tell you that every point where you disagree is a 'flaw' in your post.
    SamHall wrote: »
    The obligation to own a house is irrelevant to the people who've already bought one. This tax came in afterwards, from a govt who supposedly thought it was unfair pre election.
    Taxes can be introduced at any time. The folks who benefited when Fianna Failure scrapped property taxes didn't get hit in some other direction to compensate, did they? I don't care what the government said before the election: it doesn't change the fact that we need a property tax.
    SamHall wrote: »
    Hundreds of thousands of homeowners in this country do not own their own homes outright, (you've acknowledged the mortgage arrears crisis)
    They own them outright, with a debt secured against them. Try telling them they don't own them when you try to evict the non-payers, they will set you straight.
    SamHall wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to debt why would you ask that?

    I'm not opposed to a wealth taxes either. You're still to explain to me what wealth is in a home that's in mortgage arrears, worth maybe half/a third of the actual mortgage secured against it.

    I'm struggling to find it tbh.
    The 'wealth' in a property is in the ownership and use of that property. If I borrow money to buy a car, should I have a motor tax exemption as long as the debt exceeds or matches the value of the car?


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    #161
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    SamHall wrote: »
    Is there an option to tax a house for a quarter of the year?
    Why should there be? :confused:

    Is there an option to pay the VAT on a Mars bar quarterly? What does it have to do with anything? Are you talking about spreading the burden across the year?

    I'm sure you are aware that you only have to pay motor tax when you actually want to use the car on public roads.
    SamHall wrote: »
    The car tax/home tax argument is a ridiculous one that sadly keeps getting regurgitated.
    It's very germane, and the reason you don't want it raised is that you can't deny the parallels.


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    #162
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    JThe folks who benefited when Fianna Failure scrapped property taxes didn't get hit in some other direction to compensate, did they?

    open to correction but i think i read that they increased VAT by 2% to offset the loss. dont think it was ever decreased.


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    #163
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    open to correction but i think i read that they increased VAT by 2% to offset the loss. dont think it was ever decreased.
    You may be correct. If so, they taxed everybody to benefit property owners. That sounds rather more unfair and regressive than a property tax does.


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    #164
    phelant
    Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭phelant


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Because if you own the family home, it is wealth. Socialists don't like people who have wealth, and the more of it you have, the more they don't like you.



    I'm not sure where you get that or if it is your understanding of the term.


    Anyway, I paid after I got the letter, almost 2 months after it was posted (thanks An Post). Don't agree with it from the point of view that I will not receive anything (better services, healthcare, infrastructure) for the money I hand over. But I received a bill from revenue that is currently law, so I paid.


    If I felt we could stand together as a nation to oppose it, I would gladly not have paid.


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    #165
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    phelant wrote: »
    I'm not sure where you get that or if it is your understanding of the term.


    Anyway, I paid after I got the letter, almost 2 months after it was posted (thanks An Post). Don't agree with it from the point of view that I will not receive anything (better services, healthcare, infrastructure) for the money I hand over. But I received a bill from revenue that is currently law, so I paid.


    If I felt we could stand together as a nation to oppose it, I would gladly not have paid.
    It's another massive failure of the Fianna Failure government - it should have been introduced during the bubble. It might have quelled some of the property mania, people wouldn't have missed the money so much, and the money could have been ring-fenced and clearly directed towards local services. As in other countries, you could have received an itemised bill showing where your money was spent.

    As it is, it's being introduced at the worst possible time. Still needs to be done though.


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    #166
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Jeez Sam, your posting style is very patronising. You are wearing me out. I deal with points you make, I don't tell you that every point where you disagree is a 'flaw' in your post.

    Sorry, I'm only engaging in debate with you, it is not my intention to come across as patronising. Sincerely.
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Taxes can be introduced at any time. The folks who benefited when Fianna Failure scrapped property taxes didn't get hit in some other direction to compensate, did they? I don't care what the government said before the election: it doesn't change the fact that we need a property tax.

    VAT increase
    Property tax was replaced by stamp duty.
    Privatisation of many services and ammenities by CO Councils.
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    They own them outright, with a debt secured against them. Try telling them they don't own them when you try to evict the non-payers, they will set you straight.

    The 'wealth' in a property is in the ownership and use of that property. If I borrow money to buy a car, should I have a motor tax exemption as long as the debt exceeds or matches the value of the car?

    Again, this is a circular argument. The tax on a motor is only applicable to a motor if the owner wishes to take it out on the public roads.

    The debt secured against it/or if it is owned outright is irrelevant. As previously pointed out, I could buy 100 cars and never tax one of them.
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Why should there be? :confused:

    If you insist on using motor tax as a comparible tax, it should have the same terms and conditions attached surely?
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Is there an option to pay the VAT on a Mars bar quarterly? What does it have to do with anything? Are you talking about spreading the burden across the year?

    This is getting silly now.
    Once I buy this Mars bar, will I have to pay revenue the vat on it as a recurring annual bill?
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    I'm sure you are aware that you only have to pay motor tax when you actually want to use the car on public roads.

    I am, hence why it shouldnt be used in comparison to the home tax.
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    It's very germane, and the reason you don't want it raised is that you can't deny the parallels.

    What parallels?

    The only parallel I see is the term tax given to both.


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    #167
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    SamHall wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm only engaging in debate with you, it is not my intention to come across as patronising. Sincerely.
    Ok, I'll take you at your word.

    Replying to your last post would be pretty confusing as we were dealing with about 7 points, so I'll try to aggregate stuff again here:

    1. The government can tax property if it so chooses - I constantly hear that we are the only OECD country not to do so; whether that is true or not, it is certain that most countries have property taxes.

    2. The tax is progressive - the more valuable the property you own, the more you pay.

    3. It's not unusual to charge a tax on 'wholly owned' property - cars being an example, should you actually want to use one in public, and of course the property taxes that exist in most developed countries being perhaps the most obvious one.

    4. Stamp duty is - if anything - a less justifiable tax. It's a tax on ownership changing hands. Yet during the bubble people were falling over themselves to buy property and pay it - this is another reason why I feel that a normal property tax as used elsewhere should have been introduced at that time: but of course Fianna Failure never did anything unpopular if they could help it, even if the whole country had to pay in the long-run.


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    #168
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Why would it require that you accept liability?

    Article 11 of the Constitution allows the Government to appropriate funds as set down in law; there is no need to ask the taxpayer's opinion at all.

    Except of course when it comes to taxing the rich. They pay little or none.


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    #169
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    You need to decide what you are complaining about here: there's no obligation to own a house - many of my friends never have. If you buy something, you own it. If you own it, you should be taxed on it. How you financed it is your own business.

    Are you opposed to debt? Are you opposed to wealth taxes? What exactly is the objection?

    When I bought my car I knew there was a tax on it.
    When I bought my house there was no tax on it.
    I have already paid stamp duty on it.

    Can everybody rent properties?
    Are there enough?
    Do you think they wouldn't dream up some other tax to replace the LPT if they were not getting enough from it?


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    #170
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    It's another massive failure of the Fianna Failure government - it should have been introduced during the bubble. It might have quelled some of the property mania, people wouldn't have missed the money so much, and the money could have been ring-fenced and clearly directed towards local services. As in other countries, you could have received an itemised bill showing where your money was spent.

    As it is, it's being introduced at the worst possible time. Still needs to be done though.

    Yet Fine Gael complained after every budget that FF were not giving enough away. They are equally at fault. Zig and Zag.

    FG will suffer the same fate as FF at the next election.
    Hopefully both will suffer.


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    #171
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Except of course when it comes to taxing the rich. They pay little or none.

    Ireland’s top 0.5% of earners, the 11,714 people who earned more than
    €275,000 in a year, paid almost 18% of all income tax, over €2bn in total. Their
    average tax rate was 27.5%.
    Almost 770,000 people earned less than €17,000. Understandably, given tax
    credits, these workers paid a tiny amount of tax, €20m in total. Their average
    tax rate was about 0.5%.
    It’s in the middle, though, where things seem to go all screwy. The median
    earner, earning about €25,000, paid just 4% in income tax! As I argued before,
    we seem to have got ourselves into a situation where the typical Irish worker pays hardly any income tax
    and yet seems to think they are heavily taxed.

    http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/


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    #172
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Phoebas wrote: »
    http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/why-cant-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share-in-tax-201461.html

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/superwealthy-only-pay-tiny-fraction-in-tax-26880880.html


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    #173
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    tayto lover wrote: »
    When I bought my car I knew there was a tax on it.
    When I bought my house there was no tax on it.
    I have already paid stamp duty on it.

    Can everybody rent properties?
    Are there enough?
    Do you think they wouldn't dream up some other tax to replace the LPT if they were not getting enough from it?
    Yes, if they were a responsible government. Or cut spending.

    Let me put it this way: do you think a good government will do unpopular stuff? Or will a good government, like Fianna Failure, only do populist things? Do you think any government WANTS to increase or introduce taxes, or make cuts?


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    #174
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Yet Fine Gael complained after every budget that FF were not giving enough away. They are equally at fault. Zig and Zag.

    FG will suffer the same fate as FF at the next election.
    Hopefully both will suffer.
    That's our system, isn't it? If voters are stupid enough to keep voting for populist policies, they are essentially training our politicians to adopt a populist approach. By repeatedly voting for Fianna Failure, the electorate made it clear that you had to try to tell people what they want to hear or you are wasting your time.

    How many opposition parties are telling the truth about our economic situation today?

    None.


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    #175
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    tayto lover wrote: »
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/why-cant-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share-in-tax-201461.html

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/superwealthy-only-pay-tiny-fraction-in-tax-26880880.html

    Nice one tayto. I point you to the figures that demonstrate that the richest people pay high rates of tax and you counter with one letter to the editor and one article that says that the very richest paid an average tax bill of about €1.25m last year.

    Your assertion that they pay little or no tax is in tatters.


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    #176
    mikeym
    Registered Users Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Best off to register now than to get caught by the tax man.


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    #177
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Nice one tayto. I point you to the figures that demonstrate that the richest people pay high rates of tax and you counter with one letter to the editor and one article that says that the very richest paid an average tax bill of about €1.25m last year.

    Your assertion that they pay little or no tax is in tatters.

    No. All you have to do is read the article -

    "Super-wealthy only pay 'tiny fraction' in tax"

    The richest 450 people in Ireland -- who are worth at least €22.5bn between them -- paid an average tax bill of about €1.25m last year.

    Now what percentage is that? Very very little.


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    #178
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    tayto lover wrote: »
    No. All you have to do is read the article -

    "Super-wealthy only pay 'tiny fraction' in tax"
    No tayto.
    What you need to do is look at the actual statistics and stop relying on what some letter writer from Cork or what some sub editor in the Indo says.


    http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/2011/index.html


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    #179
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    tayto lover wrote: »
    "Super-wealthy only pay 'tiny fraction' in tax"
    Do you understand why that is the case? Do you think unilateral action on Ireland's part would reduce or increase our tax take? Are you proposing further wealth taxes?


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    #180
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Phoebas wrote: »
    No tayto.
    What you need to do is look at the actual statistics and stop relying on what some letter writer from Cork or what some sub editor in the Indo says.


    http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/2011/index.html
    Still doesn't explain this -

    The richest 450 people in Ireland -- who are worth at least €22.5bn between them -- paid an average tax bill of about €1.25m last year.

    A very minuscule amount.


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    #181
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Still doesn't explain this -

    The richest 450 people in Ireland -- who are worth at least €22.5bn between them -- paid an average tax bill of about €1.25m last year.

    A very minuscule amount.
    So you are advocating MORE wealth taxes? And opposing a wealth tax?


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