Petition to Prioritise the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme

femur61

Those houses on Vicar st were an eye sore. they were practically derelict like most of the houses on Vicar St.

When the traffic comes over the new bridge is it being directed back up high street or has it to come down high st to access the bridge. If people want to go to Callan and they already use the ring road why would they change and go through town. The new bridge is not a million miles away from Greens Bridge anyway I can't see how the central of town will be affected. There are so many empty shops in town so maybe some business may be brought into town. It is really like a ghost town at times.

kikel

femur61 wrote: »

Those houses on Vicar st were an eye sore. they were practically derelict like most of the houses on Vicar St.

When the traffic comes over the new bridge is it being directed back up high street or has it to come down high st to access the bridge. If people want to go to Callan and they already use the ring road why would they change and go through town. The new bridge is not a million miles away from Greens Bridge anyway I can't see how the central of town will be affected. There are so many empty shops in town so maybe some business may be brought into town. It is really like a ghost town at times.

High steet will have more empty unit if tescos get their way and get a site on the brewery or mart site. Did u ever see their proposal?

kikel

linny wrote: »

do these people ever stop can ye not just shut up and let them get on with building this bridge and new road for the betterment of Kilkenny.............

Was there really any need to be so rude? Do you really have to tell people to shut up? Why do you think this bridge is for the betterment of Kilkenny? Do u believe what our council says? The guys that broke the terms of the planning condition? Don't see any councillors asking any tough questions of the executive.

Threadhead

As someone who is vehemently Anti CAS, the houses on Vicar Street argument is the one that has baffled me and, I feel, consistently eroded the validity of most protestor's arguments.

The houses were pretty much useless, were not protected buildings and hadn't been cared about for years. Frankly, to create better access to the brewery site and open it up to more people, they would have been knocked and should have been knocked regardless of the entirely useless bridge.

Nicholas Walsh

The houses on Vicar Street was a heritage issue. They were An Taisce, Kilkenny Archaeological Society and Heritage Council of Ireland's way of stopping the bridge. Unfortunately under old legislation those fighting the case could all have faced bankruptcy if they had taken it to High Court. Also in Ireland people don't give a **** about heritage. Rothe house was nearly knocked in Kilkenny and the Castle nearly turned into a carpark like in trim only for visionairies like Hubert Butler(the Irish Schlinder or Voltaire depending on who you read) and Jim Gibbons. Sad to say that a man equal to both of them John Bradley was a huge advocate for saving Vicar Street. John was one of the greatest historians of his generation in this or any other country. The Vicar Street houses was where the Latin bible was translated into English- one of the key events in the Reformation in this country. But like Woodquay or Hill of Tara to an engineer it is just a kip of an old house where junkies used to frequent. Even if they pulled the Ardagh chalice and Book of Kells from it's foundations or found this is where Brian Boru and Oliver Cromwell had made love to Petronella and Salome they would knock it.
The River works is probably a better strategy and will succeed as Environmental law is European law and they cannot contravene it. Thankfully under new legislations those fighting the case cannot be bankrupted. I think they will win and we will be left with a gaping hole in Vicar Street and two ends of a bridge with no middle for decades. The councillors need to step up and talk truth to power now to prevent Kilkenny from being the bankrupt joke of the world.

Captain Havoc

Sky King wrote: »

Traffic coming from Callan road area and heading for comer road area which would otherwise have gone around the ring road.
Traffic coming from Comer road area and heading for Callan road area which would otherwise have gone around the ring road.
Traffic coming from Freshford road and heading to Kilkenny city east which would otherwise have taken Ardaloo road and comer road into town.

If you read the post you are replying to, the poster is saying that the bridge will bring traffic to the Kilkenny streets, which it will. It will route all the trucks that currently use green's bridge (and some that use ardaloo) towards the city centre, bringing traffic to the city streets.


They also come just to pass through. Thanks to CAS they'll be passing through the centre of the town instead of bypassing it.

I disagree, I still think they'll head across the ring road, don't forget the new bridge and road only brings you to the army barracks which I think will be balls anyway. When the mart and brewery are done of traffic will increase. People coming from the Freshford road will still come in via Campion's bridge or the Ballyragget road.

We're just not going to see eye to eye on this one.

Mankbag

Personally I think this model is flawed as it does not take into account the 500 plus jobs the council say are coming to the site.[/QUOTE]

There are NO 500 jobs coming to the site. That was an invention by the County Council after the local elections last year in an effort to scare the new councillors into supporting the bridge.

kikel

Mankbag wrote: »

There are NO 500 jobs coming to the site. That was an invention by the County Council after the local elections last year in an effort to scare the new councillors into supporting the bridge.

I know,

catbear

Serious question, are Diagio paying for the decommissioning of the brewery site? There's a serious amount of material to be shifted.

Mankbag

Mankbag wrote: »

Personally I think this model is flawed as it does not take into account the 500 plus jobs the council say are coming to the site.

There are NO 500 jobs coming to the site. That was an invention by the County Council after the local elections last year in an effort to scare the new councillors into supporting the bridge.[/QUOTE]

Apologies - it wasn't until hours after I'd posted that the penny dropped and I realised someone was being facetious!

But hey, let's not forget it wasn't just "500 jobs" they were bull****ting about. It was "500 jobs with the potential for up to 1,000 jobs".

catbear

Mankbag wrote: »

But hey, let's not forget it wasn't just "500 jobs" they were bull****ting about. It was "500 jobs with the potential for up to 1,000 jobs".

I think a distinction has been intentionally omitted. There may well be 500 jobs in the decommissioning of the brewery site so they are correct to say that 500 jobs could be created but they are only for the length of those works which may only be a few years; two years at the very least, five max.

The brewery site is an eyesore, a rapidly decaying one at present.

1984baby

catbear wrote: »

Serious question, are Diagio paying for the decommissioning of the brewery site? There's a serious amount of material to be shifted.

I am pretty sure that Diageo are clearing the site and the CoCo will be left with an empty lot. BUT I've also heard that the site has asbestos pipes all over it. If that's the case, it'll cost the CoCo hundreds of thousands to dig up and dispose of.

catbear

1984baby wrote: »

I am pretty sure that Diageo are clearing the site and the CoCo will be left with an empty lot. BUT I've also heard that the site has asbestos pipes all over it. If that's the case, it'll cost the CoCo hundreds of thousands to dig up and dispose of.

Wouldn't that be Diagio's liability?

1984baby

catbear wrote: »

Wouldn't that be Diagio's liability?

I was told it was not Diageo's problem. They just have to dismantle the buildings etc and give the council an empty site.
When they decide on new building layouts and start digging for foundations, they're in trouble.

Nicholas Walsh

One thing to look out for as well is that St Francis Abbey and at least one third of Brewery Site "purchased" by Kilkenny County Council was already owned by Office of Public Works as it is a National Monument including as it does- the old city walls, St Francis Well, the Abbey itself , Evan's Turret on the river and possibly cloisters that could stretch underneath the ground from the Mayfair through to the Brewhouse. Unfortunately three developments are urgently at hand- 1) The Mayfair is being refurbished by council under a Part 8 -this means no reference to An Bord Pleanala- they essentially ask themselves for permission. They could damage the city walls by doing this but more frightening - block any proper archaeological survey being done. 2) The HGV Road off the CAS which will create a rat run through the Brewery Site destroying possible cloisters and coming very close to St Francis Abbey. 3) The SP1 Committee on the Council for Economic Development. This is the most terrifying danger to the site. This sub-committee makes a farce of recent Brewery Workshops in Ormonde hotel. It took control of all development of the Brewery Site at it's last meeting. The driving force behind all debate will be economic. This sub-committee is lead by Fianna Fáil rural councillor Pat Milea and includes only one urban councillor Pat McKee. The rest are rural councillors with no stake in the city who could be easily convinced by favourable planning in their areas in exchange for their vote on this site. Why were no members of public on this sub-committee as laid down in Local Authority Act? Why was Brewery Site taken over by their brief given the huge heritage and environmental aspects- asbestos, PCPs and river works involved? Also the huge arts and cultural and housing and sporting and education and tourism aspects of this site are to be sidelined in favour of economic development? Is this what people of Kilkenny want? Imagine if same thing had happened when Castle was handed over in 1967?

catbear

Nicholas Walsh wrote: »

The Vicar Street houses was where the Latin bible was translated into English- one of the key events in the Reformation in this country.

Except for the Tudor cable end which is being preserved the national museum found the rest of the buildings to be from a much later period.

Misrepresentation of the issue only vindicates the view that protesters aren't on message so please try to refrain from the hyperbole.

Nicholas Walsh

The Bible was translated fro Latin by my namesake Nicholas Walsh into Irish (not English) those houses before he was murdered by a zealot. It would be worthwhile reading Coilin O'Drisceoil, John Bradley or indeed talking to Declan Murphy or any members of Kilkenny Archaeological Society, an Taisce or the Heritage Council- much greater experts than you or I. Valerie Kelley who did the archaeological survey used techniques which were not exhaustive in my opinion and many other archaeologists. It is very difficult to tell whether underneath the foundations there is remains that go much further back. The protesters have been in several phases to- do you refer to those who were oppossed to Dean Street and it's destruction in the 80's which was the real disaster. Petronella was most likely burned in the Irishtown petrol station in front of these houses. No monument to the first woman burned as a witch in Ireland and Britain. Also the once beautiful Dean Street is now a horrid thoroughfare for bookie shops, shabby takeaways and empty apartments as well as more abandoned business units than full ones. It was the deathknell for Irishtown which is all but imploded as a commercial district. Then there was Campaign to Complete the Ring which got over 10,000 signatures and many councillors like Sean O'hArgain, Martin Brett and John Conahan expelled from council. When they met the town planner 'retired', a contract was signed in haste and then a change of guard for Minister for Arts Jimmy Dinnehan who stalled the Vicar Street demolition as long as he could for Heather Humphries , a Credit Union manager mean they were doomed and the bridge started in haste. Too much haste as Bord Pleanala found two weeks ago. Now the future looks bleak. Knocked houses with no road to join it to a bridge that will never be built. A mess.

catbear

Nicholas Walsh wrote: »

The Bible was translated fro Latin by my namesake Nicholas Walsh into Irish (not English) those houses before he was murdered by a zealot..

I'm presuming you mean 'in those houses".

Again those houses were not of the period you're citing so again that's misinformation.
What those houses are believed to have preserved was the outline of the medieval enclosure. We'll know more after further archeaological work on the site.

Einhard

I hadn't realised that Dean St was altered so substantially in the 70s and 80s. It would be interesting to see what it looked like before those developments. I can't find anything online though, so if anyone had links to articles or photographs I'd appreciate it.

catbear

Einhard wrote: »

I hadn't realised that Dean St was altered so substantially in the 70s and 80s. It would be interesting to see what it looked like before those developments. I can't find anything online though, so if anyone had links to articles or photographs I'd appreciate it.

My memory of it was abandoned grey storehouses. The street itself was very narrow and i remember there were a few one way bottlenecks.

hi5

From the Butts down to the Black Cat..

catbear

I remember that low bridge being constantly impassable because the river would overflow even after a short deluge.

ghost_rider

hi5 wrote: »

From the Butts down to the Black Cat....

Oh I remember that hill well !

The horrors of the "hill start" during my driving test !!

Was it called "Clooney's Hill"? I remember cycling up it on the way to school in Loreto - you had to get a really good run at it it along Blackmill St but even at that I'd be almost stationary by the time I reached the top!! A lot of the time I'd have to get off the bike and walk, - no fancy Shimano gears in those days

stamjoe

Honestly, there is no need even for a ring road, it would be far more advantageous to Kilkenny Town and the tourism industry to have a Central Access Scheme.

catbear

stamjoe wrote: »

Honestly, there is no need even for a ring road, it would be far more advantageous to Kilkenny Town and the tourism industry to have a Central Access Scheme.

At this stage we may end up with both!

Yamanoto

Frank McDonald calling for the ring road to take priority over CAS in the IT today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/frank-mcdonald-kilkenny-is-a-city-divided-over-bridge-and-access-scheme-1.2306752

catbear

Good article but I hate this kind of emotive spin,

Heavy machinery has been used to drive piles deep into the riverbed as foundations for piers to support the new bridge, with predictable damage to the Nore as a wildlife habitat.

He'd be rendered cataleptic if he realised the entire stretch of the river from above Greensbridge down to the Lacken weir were under constant heavy machinery during the flood relief works!
CAS is trivial when compared to the physical impact of the Flood Relief Scheme which ran for several years.

road_high

Horse has well and truly bolted at this stage, no point rehashing old ground.
McDonald has a particular anti-road bias so I'd take him with a pinch of salt tbh. Though I agree re the need for the ring road to be finished asap.

kikel

catbear wrote: »

Good article but I hate this kind of emotive spin,

He'd be rendered cataleptic if he realised the entire stretch of the river from above Greensbridge down to the Lacken weir were under constant heavy machinery during the flood relief works!
CAS is trivial when compared to the physical impact of the Flood Relief Scheme which ran for several years.

So it was damaged once it's ok to continue to damage the river that is marked as a special area of conservation? Hmmm