Petition to Prioritise the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme

redtelephone

For anyone interested there is an online petition calling on the Kilkenny Borough Council and Kilkenny County Council to prioritise the completion of the northern section of the Ring Road over the Central Access Scheme. The petition is calling for completion the existing Ring Road and to stop the potential damage which would split the Medieval City in two.

Petition is here:

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/kilkenny-borough-council-prioritise-completion-of-kilkenny-ring-road-over-the-central-access-scheme?share_id=ANgbxxCdMn&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition

hi5

I agree with this.
Access to the Freshford road is the major problem, both from coming over Greensbridge on one side of town and along by Kennyswell/Ballycallan road on the other side of town (as seen in the picture).
The finished ring road would make a huge difference to the traffic that side of town and negate the need for the inner relief road.

Threadhead

The fact that they are not prepared to finish the ring road and instead invest millions into an utterly superfluous, city dissecting road is just madness. The long term good of the city is being forsaken for what, a short cut that isn't even that efficient?

I just can't see the benefit of this ahead of finishing the ring road.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHj5Hywz888

Captain Havoc

Yep, either way you have to build a bridge, although I understand the ring road bridge would need to be bigger. Building the central access scheme is just going to bring cars into town, also the position of the traffic lights at both sides of the Esso garage is going to cause further problems with pedestrians pushing the buttons at peak times. Traffic lights are the work of the devil and should be replaced with roundabouts (if we put enough roundabouts in, people will learn how to use them) and zebra crossings (there are few things more annoying than a red on a pedestrian crossing with nobody around). The extra traffic trying to join the inner relief road will only put pressure on the existing roads.

Even a bridge from Castlecomer Rd to Freshford road would ease a lot of the traffic as you'd have an extra bridge, people could go out the Freshford road and join the ring road, which would ease the pressure on the more central roads. I know with the access scheme you'd still have an extra bridge but all it's doing is making Greensbridge redundant. You could also put a HGV ban in the city so trucks would have to go all the way around from the Callan Rd. to the Freshford road, there would need to be special exemptions made for the likes of Grasslands to get in and out.

Max Powers

interesting stuff lads, im not even from KK, down the road in Waterford. Any maps of what is proposed? surely they would have to knock loads of buildings to built a new road straight thru or are they just tarting it up a bit?

Cabaal

Max Powers wrote: »

interesting stuff lads, im not even from KK, down the road in Waterford. Any maps of what is proposed? surely they would have to knock loads of buildings to built a new road straight thru or are they just tarting it up a bit?

My understanding is they'd have to knock a load of stuff, I don't have any maps

But here's a simulation of the job....think this is the same job anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHj5Hywz888

S28382

Imagine the traffic down that way during the mornings especially if coming from the garda barracks side.

hi5

Here's a map,

http://www.kilkennycity.ie/resources/eng/Services/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/Figure%209.1.pdf

The inner relief road will swing in between the front of the hospice and the rear of the boot factory.
Also the inner relief road will bypass along the back of Kennyswell continuing to bisect the Tullaroan road on to the freshford road with a link road off this to the bull ring and on to the new bridge.

I'd still prefer to see the Ring Rd extended instead.

kk23

this was originally proposed in 1979 , might have been a goer then but an inner "relief" road is as out of date, whats needed is an extension to the existing ring road, I see no sense for this waster of funds. senseless.

road_high

kk23 wrote: »

this was originally proposed in 1979 , might have been a goer then but an inner "relief" road is as out of date, whats needed is an extension to the existing ring road, I see no sense for this waster of funds. senseless.

Absolutely. The Council seems hellbent on it though. Funds would be far better spent on the ring road completion indeed.

kk23

road_high wrote: »

Absolutely. The Council seems hellbent on it though. Funds would be far better spent on the ring road completion indeed.

why would they be so determined to proceed with this? are they out of touch with reality? people? value for money? which or what is the reason for the intransigence?
whatever the reason , its showtime by the looks of things

Threadhead

I just can't fathom why this is still going ahead.

Kilkenny Archaeology is asserting that the houses on Vicar Street that are due to be demolished to make way for the roads have elements of medieval houses, cellars and towers under the buildings and should be properly excavated and protected. On the other hand, Joe Crockett, the county manager claimed on RTÉ Radio that 'they are of no architectural value, no archaeological value, they're not listed buildings, they're not of heritage value.' Despite one of the houses actually being a protected building.

So, as kk23 asked, why are they so hellbent on this road? What purpose will it serve beyond serving a shopping site that is no longer going ahead?

redtelephone

It seems to me that the Borough Council have always been happy to use any excuse to dismantle the medieval fabric of Kilkenny. Much has been lost since the 1970s due to "development". I'm thinking of things like the "Arcade" in High St, the fast food outlet right opposite the Tholsel, Market Cross S.C., the Ormond St car park, the eyesore of those tall tanks at the brewery (soon to be removed hopefully), and more lately the glass and steel box at the back of the Courthouse. Is it any surprise that they want to cut off the Medieval Mile before its end?

Cabaal

Kilkenny gets a mention on thejournal.ie

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-proposed-road-though-kilkenny-shows-the-lack-of-value-placed-on-heritage-944954-Jun2013/

Building a central access road in the heart of historic Kilkenny while simultaneously trying to encourage tourism based on the city’s architectural heritage makes no sense, writes Geni Murphy.

road_high

I know they have spent a fortune on planning etc but once this gets underway there is no going back. Shame they couldn't just prioritise the ring road and remove traffic from town intead.

Cabaal

road_high wrote: »

I know they have spent a fortune on planning etc but once this gets underway there is no going back. Shame they couldn't just prioritise the ring road and remove traffic from town intead.

Out and out protects could still stop it if it gets underway, so never say nothing can stop it.

If the place gets together including business then it could still be stopped,

mahamageehad

I've signed as well now. It's the first I've heard of it but sure it's complete madness!

Threadhead

This is going to go ahead and we will spend years ruing the fact that we didn't do more. Never before has such a massive act of sanctioned destruction happened to our city. It's just unfathomable that it's happening.

10 million spent on dividing the city in half for a road that genuinely serves no purpose anymore based on plans originated 30 years ago for an entirely different purpose. Why they just can't finish the ring road is beyond me.

nootroc

Talking Heads building a Road to Nowhere

alz007

I have to say that I am one of the few that is not in favour of the alternative to this scheme and will not be signing this petition, but I guess for selfish reasons. If the completion of the Ring Road was implemented, the beautiful area where I grew up and lived all my life would be right in the firing line. Although I have never seen proposed plans for where the route of this road would go, maps and common sense (if they indeed have that) would suggest that my neighbours and I would be affected. Has there ever been a proposed route made public for this ring road completion??

However, I freely admit that this Central Access Scheme project is in no way good for the character of Kilkenny and it does not seem the logical choice to have a higher volume of traffic coming through the heart of the city like that. In saying that, it is probably way too late to stop this, as it seems the wheels are well in motion. I will be in the vast minority that will breathe a sigh of relief when this thing finally goes ahead, as no amount of compensation money would be enough to give up my home or else have a noisey busy road put beside me. Call me a mé feiner all you want, but that is just the way it is.

rayc

I wonder does the councils urgency to push on with this have anything to do with some of the proposed uses of the Smithwicks brewery site, specifically the idea of using it as a campus for part of the new Tech University? It would pull a lot more traffic into town and might making getting planning permission difficult for the same reason as it was for the mart site.

S28382

I dont understand how this is going to split Kilkenny city its down in the Irishtown area which is at the end of the town, im not saying its right thats its happening but at least its progressive...they are looking for a solution. Traffic in Kilkenny is insane sometimes and there needs to be something done about it and extending the ring road is not going to solve the traffic problem in the town itself.

blockic

S28382 wrote: »

Traffic in Kilkenny is insane sometimes and there needs to be something done about it and extending the ring road is not going to solve the traffic problem in the town itself.

In comparison to the likes of Dublin and Cork, Kilkenny traffic is not insane from my experience.

S28382

blockic wrote: »

In comparison to the likes of Dublin and Cork, Kilkenny traffic is not insane from my experience.

Well yeah of course not because they are bigger cities with more traffic where as Kilkenny is a small town with John st traffic which usually is a pain in the ass.

1984baby

S28382 wrote: »

Well yeah of course not because they are bigger cities with more traffic where as Kilkenny is a small town with John st traffic which usually is a pain in the ass.

The council have made the traffic worse in Kilkenny by changing numerous junctions and light sequences.
1. Coming from the Castle road there was 3 lanes (one to turn left to Patrick St, one to go straight up High St, one to turn right to Rose Inn St) - now there's only 1 lane.
2. Coming from Rose Inn Street they got rid of the left turn lane onto Castle Road
3. They have removed the left filter lane coming from Patrick St going to High St.
4. Driving in the Dublin Road, they reduced the lanes to 2 at the traffic lights. By getting rid of the left turn only lane, they've caused long tailbacks.
5. The lights at the top of John St, they removed the left filter lane turning into Johns Green.

There is probably loads more that I've forgotten. But all of the changes above, coupled with new traffic light sequences have made traffic far worse over the years.

randylonghorn

S28382 wrote: »

I dont understand how this is going to split Kilkenny city its down in the Irishtown area which is at the end of the town ...

Certainly, in terms of the historic areas of the city (and therefore the tourist attractions), it creates a (far bigger than existing) divide between the environs of St. Canice's and the Hightown area.

How does the CAS gel with the "medieval mile" project for example? ... it cuts straight across it!

The Minister for the Environment, Community & Local Government, Mr Phil Hogan T.D, today (Tuesday October 30th 2012) announced an ambitious €5.5 million investment in a new “Medieval Mile” tourism project for Kilkenny.

The “Medieval Mile” will stretch from Kilkenny Castle to St Canice’s Cathedral and will position the historic city as a “must see” destination for overseas visitors to Ireland.

And the same people who are smiling in the photograph at the top of that article are backing the CAS? Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't get it.

Nor tbh can I even see the CAS doing wonders for traffic problems in Kilkenny; if it really was going to solve everything, then maybe it would be worth it, but does anyone genuinely believe it will?

I know completing the Ring Road would probably cost more, but it would be a far more viable long-term solution imo.

S28382

1984baby wrote: »

The council have made the traffic worse in Kilkenny by changing numerous junctions and light sequences.
1. Coming from the Castle road there was 3 lanes (one to turn left to Patrick St, one to go straight up High St, one to turn right to Rose Inn St) - now there's only 1 lane.
2. Coming from Rose Inn Street they got rid of the left turn lane onto Castle Road
3. They have removed the left filter lane coming from Patrick St going to High St.
4. Driving in the Dublin Road, they reduced the lanes to 2 at the traffic lights. By getting rid of the left turn only lane, they've caused long tailbacks.
5. The lights at the top of John St, they removed the left filter lane turning into Johns Green.

There is probably loads more that I've forgotten. But all of the changes above, coupled with new traffic light sequences have made traffic far worse over the years.

No matter what they do up that end of town it will be a pain in the ass getting through it because its so small and compact up there.

Cars parking by the lights at the bottom of the parade is a nuiscance as along with the lights taking forever cars reversing from the spaces hold traffic up so it would be a good start to get rid of them spaces,

Cars parking in high st blocking the road is a nuiscance,

Driving down high st can be dangerous as people just seem to dart across the road from all angles,

Maybe pedestrianise high st keep all traffic from going up high st and the central access scheme might be warranted then.

S28382

randylonghorn wrote: »

Certainly, in terms of the historic areas of the city (and therefore the tourist attractions), it creates a (far bigger than existing) divide between the environs of St. Canice's and the Hightown area.

How does the CAS gel with the "medieval mile" project for example? ... it cuts straight across it!



And the same people who are smiling in the photograph at the top of that article are backing the CAS? Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't get it.

Nor tbh can I even see the CAS doing wonders for traffic problems in Kilkenny; if it really was going to solve everything, then maybe it would be worth it, but does anyone genuinely believe it will?

I know completing the Ring Road would probably cost more, but it would be a far more viable long-term solution imo.

The completion of the ring road seems its the best thing to do i just dont see why this CAS is a detremental thing to KK. Im sure they have a long term vision regarding the CAS hence the reason why they seem to adament on going ahead with it.

randylonghorn

S28382 wrote: »

The completion of the ring road seems its the best thing to do i just dont see why this CAS is a detremental thing to KK.

Historic tourism is of major benefit to the economy of Kilkenny, and in my opinion has the potential to be far more so in the future with good planning and management.

How does increasing traffic density significantly on a street which already splits the historic areas of the city benefit that?

I'd be far more inclined to go looking for ways to *decrease* traffic density in that area to be honest.

S28382 wrote: »

Im sure they have a long term vision regarding the CAS hence the reason why they seem to adament on going ahead with it.

They may have a vision, but if you're confident that it's the right one, you have a lot more faith in local authorities in terms of long-term planning than I do!

And my cynicism is based on looking around me not only in Kilkenny but in most of the cities and towns in Ireland ...

S28382

randylonghorn wrote: »

Historic tourism is of major benefit to the economy of Kilkenny, and in my opinion has the potential to be far more so in the future with good planning and management.

How does increasing traffic density significantly on a street which already splits the historic areas of the city benefit that?

I'd be far more inclined to go looking for ways to *decrease* traffic density in that area to be honest.

They may have a vision, but if you're confident that it's the right one, you have a lot more faith in local authorities in terms of long-term planning than I do!

And my cynicism is based on looking around me not only in Kilkenny but in most of the cities and towns in Ireland ...

The CAS will run through Irishtown so if they pedestrianise hight st then there will be no traffic cutting through that part of town which is a good thing,

Haha yeah my faith might be in the wrong place altho in fairness KK county council arent that bad.....im a blow in maybe my judgement is arseways.:)

redtelephone

S28382 wrote: »

Haha yeah my faith might be in the wrong place altho in fairness KK county council arent that bad.....im a blow in maybe my judgement is arseways.:)

Just one example, admittedly an old one but a good one :

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local/ashton-to-take-high-court-action-1-2154979

Captain Havoc

Internet petitions and emails aren't worth the paper they're written on.

1984baby

Complete the ring road and get rid of the footpath on Greensbridge. Build a small pedestrian bridge beside it. This would make the current bridge wide enough for 2 large vehicles to pass at the same time - cutting the traffic congestion there.
Maybe put a roundabout instead of the lights at Irishtown?

S28382

1984baby wrote: »

Complete the ring road and get rid of the footpath on Greensbridge. Build a small pedestrian bridge beside it. This would make the current bridge wide enough for 2 large vehicles to pass at the same time - cutting the traffic congestion there.
Maybe put a roundabout instead of the lights at Irishtown?

Yeah +1 on this.

Schindlers Pissed

There's no need for a pedestrian bridge beside Greens Bridge......next time you walk over it have a look at the large pipe that runs alongside it on the footpath side.

Take out the existing footpath as you said to increase the width for two vehicles, use that pipe and existing steelwork as an anchor point for a new footpath (with strengtheners of course), and hey presto.......the job is done.

mick kk

So what happens now with all this?
Does anyone know when they are going to knock those houses and start the project. Personally, I think its a shame what they are doing - and am I correct in saying that it is all about boosting the value of the mart site by funnelling traffic through it?

Einhard

Are people over-reacting a bit? Isn't this going to be a two-lane carriageway? Hardly dividing the city in two. You'd swear they were building a motorway through the Cathedral!! Not sure if it's the right thing or not, but I always get a tad skeptical when I see hyperbole thrown around, and there seems to be a bit of it surrounding this project.

Threadhead

Why is it happening?

To service the new mart site because Greensbridge isn't up to it? Good idea!

Is there anything happening to the mart site? No!

So, why is it happening now in 2013?

catbear

It is simply financially and economically logical and reasonable that the ringroad be completed instead of putting another traffic artery through the urban area.

The mart site isn't a just reason for the push for the inner road but I believe it's the only reason at hand for vested interests who need the inner relief road to go ahead if they're to profit from land purchases.

The mart site is a red herring, the question really is who benefits financially in the short term as ignoring completion of the ring road shows that decisions are not been made with longterm considerations.

Find out who owns the lands required for the inner relief road and if they have political connections to influence the whole project.

Completing the ring road is a longterm progressive move that opens up access to another side of the urban area.

Einhard

catbear wrote: »

It is simply financially and economically logical and reasonable that the ringroad be completed instead of putting another traffic artery through the urban area.

The mart site isn't a just reason for the push for the inner road but I believe it's the only reason at hand for vested interests who need the inner relief road to go ahead if they're to profit from land purchases.

The mart site is a red herring, the question really is who benefits financially in the short term as ignoring completion of the ring road shows that decisions are not been made with longterm considerations.

Find out who owns the lands required for the inner relief road and if they have political connections to influence the whole project.

Completing the ring road is a longterm progressive move that opens up access to another side of the urban area.

As far as I know, the IRR has been on tthe agenda for decades now, so it would really be playing the waiting game for it to be motivated bu ulterior financial motives.

catbear

The scheme may have been on the table for a long time but it was never a priority for vested interests during the housing bubble. However now that the only major buyer is the taxpayer then the project becomes of vital importance, especially when in the short to medium term there may be no other opportunity to cash out.

It's nice to believe that ultimately government is motivated by the interests of the greater good but too often and especially in the last two decades we've been reminded that public office has been a means by which to live at everyones expense.

The completion of the ring road is the logical long term option for the public good.

Einhard

catbear wrote: »

The scheme may have been on the table for a long time but it was never a priority for vested interests during the housing bubble. However now that the only major buyer is the taxpayer then the project becomes of vital importance, especially when in the short to medium term there may be no other opportunity to cash out.

So you don't think the Mart developers would have been in any way interested in bringing the IRR to fruitition. Cynicism is all well and good, but cynicism for the sake of it, and especially throwing around unfounded accusations without a shred of evidence is a bit much.

Just because people do things with which you disagree, doesn't at all mean that their motives are underhand.

catbear

Those owners of the mart site are not the ones who set the conditions regarding access.

For a moment just imagine you live on the johns well road and you need to get to the clonmel road but you know town traffic is busy because of schools etc, you'll naturally chose the ringroad.

Now imagine you had to go to Freshford rd instead, you're stuck in the same traffic either way. the completion of the ringroad avoids the funneling of traffic.

It's so logical and obvious that only alterer motives could see it being ignored.

NoGutsNoGlory

amazing the way the people against this road keep rehashing the same auld bluff.. now that the scheme is going to start soon, they are all back on the hobby horses ... the new road went through the planning process a few years ago all all the above stuff was mentioned again and again..
if all the objectors stay off the new road, it will be plain sailing for those of use who want to move forward in the city ..

nuttz

NoGutsNoGlory wrote: »

amazing the way the people against this road keep rehashing the same auld bluff.. now that the scheme is going to start soon, they are all back on the hobby horses ... the new road went through the planning process a few years ago all all the above stuff was mentioned again and again..
if all the objectors stay off the new road, it will be plain sailing for those of use who want to move forward in the city ..

Give me one solid argument for bringing HGVs into the center of the town.

This is a ridiculous decision altogether. It doesn't take a genius to realise that even just completing some or the remaining sections of the ring road will to reduce congestion in the center(i.e Freshford road to Castlecomer road or Tullaroan road to Freshford road). To out of hand dismiss the ulterior motives in this case is naive.
Sean O'hArgain is another gutless politician for agreeing to this, how the board in the Gaelscoil let him continue as principal is beyond me, <mod snip of inappropriate comment>.

randylonghorn

NoGutsNoGlory wrote: »

if all the objectors stay off the new road, it will be plain sailing for those of use who want to move forward in the city ..

Would you ever consider that those who don't think the CAS is the best option may also want to see the city move forward, but in the way which is best for the city both now and in the long term?

redtelephone

Quote from An Bord Pleanala Inspector's report which gave approval for the scheme:

Page 95 -96 : "Notwithstanding the reduced scope of the scheme, it is still a matter of concern that the predicted traffic levels for Dean Street for peak hour are over 1500 vehicles per hour........ therefore it is strongly recommended that further traffic management proposals be developed with the objective of limiting and reducing the level of traffic."

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/HA0/RHA0014A.pdf

Even An Bord Pleanala thinks there will be too much traffic although they gave it approval. It's totally ridiculous to approve something like this and then try to limit its effects. Just goes to show it should never have been allowed.

Captain Havoc

I've deleted posts, one by myself also, as I don't think we should be discussing the subject, which is why a card was given in the first place.

Einhard

redtelephone wrote: »

Quote from An Bord Pleanala Inspector's report which gave approval for the scheme:

Page 95 -96 : "Notwithstanding the reduced scope of the scheme, it is still a matter of concern that the predicted traffic levels for Dean Street for peak hour are over 1500 vehicles per hour........ therefore it is strongly recommended that further traffic management proposals be developed with the objective of limiting and reducing the level of traffic."

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/HA0/RHA0014A.pdf

Just to give a little context, the document states elsewhere that traffic will increase from 1162 vehicles an hour to 1531, an increase of 369. Not exactly a massive figure, and the reason why the scheme was approved. It shoudl also be noted that a huge reduction from 1239 vehicles per hour to 262 vehicles per hour is envisaged for Vicar's St, which I'm sure will come as pleasant news to those who live there.

Even An Bord Pleanala thinks there will be too much traffic although they gave it approval. It's totally ridiculous to approve something like this and then try to limit its effects. Just goes to show it should never have been allowed.

An Bord Pleanala said no such thing. I've read the report, and while they note the increase in traffic, and recommend traffic management measures, nowehere do they state that "there will be too much traffic". I appreciate that you hold strong views about this scheme, but such hyperbole only undermines your own position.

redtelephone

Einhard wrote: »

Just to give a little context, the document states elsewhere that traffic will increase from 1162 vehicles an hour to 1531, an increase of 369. Not exactly a massive figure, and the reason why the scheme was approved. It shoudl also be noted that a huge reduction from 1239 vehicles per hour to 262 vehicles per hour is envisaged for Vicar's St, which I'm sure will come as pleasant news to those who live there.

According to the document the maximum sustainable volume on Dean St is 800 vehicles per hour. With this scheme in place, it will be 1531, almost twice the maximum, which will lead to congestion. Here is the quote:

"It is noted that the predictions for Dean Street would indicate an increase in traffic from 8,442 vehicles per day to 12,173 vehicles per day. The conclusion in the original report to the traffic flow of 800 vehicles per hour should be the maximum sustainable volume on Dean Street has not changed."
10HA0014A An Bord Pleanála Page 85 of 97

Einhard wrote: »

An Bord Pleanala said no such thing. I've read the report, and while they note the increase in traffic, and recommend traffic management measures, nowehere do they state that "there will be too much traffic". I appreciate that you hold strong views about this scheme, but such hyperbole only undermines your own position.

I was not quoting Bord Pleanala nor did I claim to be I was paraphrasing what I had already quoted. Bord Pleanala said ".... it is strongly recommended that further traffic management proposals be developed with the objective of limiting and reducing the level of traffic." Is there any other reason why they would recommend limiting and reducing the level of traffic if they did not foresee a problem with traffic levels being too high? There's no hyperbole here.

foxcoverteddy

There seems to be very little info on Boards regarding the demonstration over the proposed knocking of Vicar Street for the building of the new road through our city.
If as the e.mail I received suggests that many people do not agree with the council, why is the council we elected going ahead with the rape of the old city, one asks?
Why wasn't a more sympathetic approach undertaken like joining the proposed new road from the end of the road that has already been built.
That is one scenario, however one might ask is there anything in vicar street worth saving, is architecture fundamental to the cities ancient past, I can't see it but there must be some who do.
Is this a devious plan to develop the mart site, is someone going to benefit personally from such a development, do we have noses in a trough?
Of course there will be compensation to the owners of the somewhat dilapidated properties, one might ask who are the beneficial owners of the properties, did someone do their homework and had a vision of the future plans of the council.
I think much could be said as to why all of this is taking place, who wants to build in the mart? At the present it is rather a blot on the landscape.
How will the new road interact with the schools in the area and ease of getting to and fro from St Lukes.
Surely this is the time to ask our ministerial TD to investigate.