Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

SafeSurfer

I am from the area and know some of the people involved. I find it difficult to believe that an, at the time, minor local politician could pick up the phone and dictate how one of the country's most how profile cases was conducted. Who could and could not be questioned etc. This wasn't the Taoiseach or minister for justice, it was a small time politician, below even county council level. When Sean Doherty was minister for justice in the Haughey government and intervened in a case of assault the intervention was soon exposed. It is incredible to believe that the politician in question would have that much clout and be able to keep it under wraps for so long.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

SafeSurfer

Patww79 wrote: »

But it wasn't high profile. It was never let get that far.[/quote

It was hugely high profile at the time. Searches went on for months, with the army, civil defence etc. A neighbor of mine was hired for weeks to drain lakes and big holes with a tractor and tanker. It was a high profile case.

oranbhoy67

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I am from the area and know some of the people involved. I find it difficult to believe that an, at the time, minor local politician could pick up the phone and dictate how one of the country's most how profile cases was conducted. Who could and could not be questioned etc. This wasn't the Taoiseach or minister for justice, it was a small time politician, below even county council level. When Sean Doherty was minister for justice in the Haughey government and intervened in a case of assault the intervention was soon exposed. It is incredible to believe that the politician in question would have that much clout and be able to keep it under wraps for so long.

he is a County Councillor now and hugely influential in other areas and a very wealthy man.

It is incredible to believe but incredible things happen at times , nothing about the Ireland of that era surprises me , did you watch the doc and if so what was your other general views on it ?

strandroad

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I am from the area and know some of the people involved. I find it difficult to believe that an, at the time, minor local politician could pick up the phone and dictate how one of the country's most how profile cases was conducted. Who could and could not be questioned etc. This wasn't the Taoiseach or minister for justice, it was a small time politician, below even county council level. When Sean Doherty was minister for justice in the Haughey government and intervened in a case of assault the intervention was soon exposed. It is incredible to believe that the politician in question would have that much clout and be able to keep it under wraps for so long.

You keep it quiet for a little while and it's this cover up that becomes the crime others will then try to cover up... not the actual killing.

SafeSurfer

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

he is a County Councillor now and hugely influential in other areas and a very wealthy man.

It is incredible to believe but incredible things happen at times , nothing about the Ireland of that era surprises me , did you watch the doc and if so what was your other general views on it ?

A councillor now, but not in 1977 and not nearly as wealthy or powerful as today. I thought the documentary fell short of my expectations. A lot of rumour, insinuation and hyperbole but short on any revelations or new evidence. Is there a shred of evidence for the intervention of the politician? No. I remain sceptical.
In order for the cover up to make any sense, the murderer would have to have the politician in a seriously compromised position who in turn would have had to have huge influence over the superintendent. Witnesses in the doc mention a call from the politician while in other newspaper articles they claim they heard about the call from colleagues.
What had the politician or the superintendent to gain from a cover up? There has never been any suggestion that either were involved in anything sinister to the best of my knowledge.

JinkyJackson

SafeSurfer wrote:

A councillor now, but not in 1977 and not nearly as wealthy or powerful as today. I thought the documentary fell short of my expectations. A lot of rumour, insinuation and hyperbole but short on any revelations or new evidence. Is there a shred of evidence for the intervention of the politician? No. I remain sceptical. In order for the cover up to make any sense, the murderer would have to have the politician in a seriously compromised position who in turn would have had to have huge influence over the superintendent. Witnesses in the doc mention a call from the politician while in other newspaper articles they claim they heard about the call from colleagues. What had the politician or the superintendent to gain from a cover up? There has never been any suggestion that either were involved in anything sinister to the best of my knowledge.

What had the two senior Gardai to gain from saying they were told to back off the main suspect? What has her sister to gain from making up stories, if that's what you believe? Why is Mary's mother so adamant that the suspect is never investigated?

I don't have any answers, but some sort of cover up is going on and I'd really like to know why.

oranbhoy67

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A councillor now, but not in 1977 and not nearly as wealthy or powerful as today. I thought the documentary fell short of my expectations. A lot of rumour, insinuation and hyperbole but short on any revelations or new evidence. Is there a shred of evidence for the intervention of the politician? No. I remain sceptical.
In order for the cover up to make any sense, the murderer would have to have the politician in a seriously compromised position who in turn would have had to have huge influence over the superintendent. Witnesses in the doc mention a call from the politician while in other newspaper articles they claim they heard about the call from colleagues.
What had the politician or the superintendent to gain from a cover up? There has never been any suggestion that either were involved in anything sinister to the best of my knowledge.

what do you think of the mother refusing to allow an inquest , do you think its right she should even be allowed to do that?

as for this quote from you

What had the politician or the superintendent to gain from a cover up? There has never been any suggestion that either were involved in anything sinister to the best of my knowledge

I have on my computer here screenshots from a Donegal Democrat front page article from 1985 that says the politician and the superintendent were very close and that rank and file Gardai believed they were impeded in doing their job in trying to investigate any of his business deals because of this relationship not what I would call sinister but still allegations of Gardai/Political intervention on cases , I won't post it here because it contains the politicians name, im not scared of libel I have nothing to lose but I'm scared it will result in any potential mistrial of any suspects in the future .

also what do you think of the revelation that the superintendent attended a Fianna Fail function which is strictly against Gardai rules?

oranbhoy67

id just like to point out these allegations that councillor and the superintendent Dom Murray were "very close" were made on the "today tonight" show shown on RTE on Wednesday November the 13th 1985 .

SafeSurfer

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

what do you think of the mother refusing to allow an inquest , do you think its right she should even be allowed to do that?

as for this quote from you

What had the politician or the superintendent to gain from a cover up? There has never been any suggestion that either were involved in anything sinister to the best of my knowledge

I have on my computer here screenshots from a Donegal Democrat front page article from 1985 that says the politician and the superintendent were very close and that rank and file Gardai believed they were impeded in doing their job in trying to investigate any of his business deals because of this relationship not what I would call sinister but still allegations of Gardai/Political intervention on cases , I won't post it here because it contains the politicians name, im not scared of libel I have nothing to lose but I'm scared it will result in any potential mistrial of any suspects in the future .

also what do you think of the revelation that the superintendent attended a Fianna Fail function which is strictly against Gardai rules?

It may break Garda rules but it is hardly evidence of Collusion in child murder. I know one of the guards who made allegations in the 80s. There was a Today Tonight programme on it at the time. Perhaps you could point to any prosecutions resulting from these allegations?
I expected more concrete revelations from the documentary. The "new evidence" is tenuous at best.
About 4 years ago I received a call from a detective who was checking out a statement made by a deceased relative, who had reported seeing an English registered car near Cashelard a few days before Mary's disappearance. They were following up every witness statement 35 years after the event, so I don't believe the case has been as neglected as many seem to believe.

oranbhoy67

SafeSurfer wrote: »

It may break Garda rules but it is hardly evidence of Collusion in child murder. I know one of the guards who made allegations in the 80s. There was a Today Tonight programme on it at the time. Perhaps you could point to any prosecutions resulting from these allegations?
I expected more concrete revelations from the documentary. The "new evidence" is tenuous at best.
About 4 years ago I received a call from a detective who was checking out a statement made by a deceased relative, who had reported seeing an English registered car near Cashelard a few days before Mary's disappearance. They were following up every witness statement 35 years after the event, so I don't believe the case has been as neglected as many seem to believe.

ill tell you how much the case has been neglected , i went to Ballyshannon Garda station to make a statement and the guard who asked me down had went home in the meantime, i was put on the phone to him and he said he was desperate to chat to me but had a big case on and would contact me the next week and took my number

that was 2 months ago not a peep since I rang his station last week and he rang back to tell me he was on holidays and would speak to me this week .... you can guess the rest

brooke 2

JinkyJackson wrote: »

Na sorry. If my own brother raped and murdered my little daughter, I wouldn't care about anything only him getting locked up for it.

Mary Boyles mother is a discusting person if she's knowingly letting a rapist and murderer roam free.

I agree. I am not condoning what she is doing, just trying to rationalise it
in some way. As I've said before, she is typical of the kind of person from
remote areas in Ireland, and possibly in other countries, who do not want
outsiders to know their business. Life must have been intolerable for her husband,
knowing/suspecting what he did, with a wife who was clearly
prepared to let her daughter's killer escape justice.

brooke 2

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I was at the scene a few months ago , the local taxi driver didnt even know how to get to it, you have to drive up a long twisting private (but there was no signs and gates were open) lane to get there

Its also on an exposed hillside and there was poachers on the lake that day who had a lookout on the hill who saw no strange vehicles. for me to walk from the front door of the house to the main road took about 15 minutes & I am 6"2 tall , i didnt even attempt to retrace Marys "final journey" as the land was so rough looking

That was something which came out in the documentary - how a six-year-old could not possibly have climbed
over those walls between her grandparents' house and the neighbour's house, as she would have had to do,
if she had followed her uncle as he said she did.

brooke 2

Going Forward wrote: »

Because I was naive.

I believed the unbelievable account that was given, that he had nothing to do with it.

I had thought of how guilty he must have felt letting her out of his sight, all the time
thinking she was following him.

Looking around and not seeing her.

Then finding out she was missing.

Did many berate him for letting her out of his sight, I don't know, I don't remember anyone saying that here very much, certainly not like the McCanns were berated.

That is how the story has always been presented in the press. I also remember feeling sorry for the
uncle when he discovered his little niece was no longer following him, even though I did feel he might
have kept a closer eye on a child so young. However, until last night, I did not realise how rough the
terrain was. Most responsible people would have held on tightly to a child in such an area which posed
many dangers for a youngster. Oh, the irony of that last sentence!!

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

what do you think of the mother refusing to allow an inquest , do you think its right she should even be allowed to do that?

as for this quote from you

What had the politician or the superintendent to gain from a cover up? There has never been any suggestion that either were involved in anything sinister to the best of my knowledge

I have on my computer here screenshots from a Donegal Democrat front page article from 1985 that says the politician and the superintendent were very close and that rank and file Gardai believed they were impeded in doing their job in trying to investigate any of his business deals because of this relationship not what I would call sinister but still allegations of Gardai/Political intervention on cases , I won't post it here because it contains the politicians name, im not scared of libel I have nothing to lose but I'm scared it will result in any potential mistrial of any suspects in the future .

also what do you think of the revelation that the superintendent attended a Fianna Fail function which is strictly against Gardai rules?

Can't you blank out the names? I know who the politician is but would like to see the article

brooke 2

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

ill tell you how much the case has been neglected , i went to Ballyshannon Garda station to make a statement and the guard who asked me down had went home in the meantime, i was put on the phone to him and he said he was desperate to chat to me but had a big case on and would contact me the next week and took my number

that was 2 months ago not a peep since I rang his station last week and he rang back to tell me he was on holidays and would speak to me this week .... you can guess the rest

Sounds like something from Maurice McCabe's account of the gardaí in Cavan,
especially in connection with the taxi driver, Mary Lynch, who was attacked.

oranbhoy67

jenny smith wrote: »

Can't you blank out the names? I know who the politician is but would like to see the article

I'm going to try and do this I was out all night playing football tonight just in, someone has already had a go on the copy I have using an editing tool so its a bit messy but ill have a go

oranbhoy67

brooke 2 wrote: »

That was something which came out in the documentary - how a six-year-old could not possibly have climbed
over those walls between her grandparents' house and the neighbour's house, as she would have had to do,
if she had followed her uncle as he said she did.

yes and stone walls are my trade and having seen these ones trust me that these walls werent climbable for most adults never mind a 6-year-old

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

I'm going to try and do this I was out all night playing football tonight just in, someone has already had a go on the copy I have using an editing tool so its a bit messy but ill have a go

is the screenshot a jpeg file?

jenny smith

In the doc Mary's mother is hown on Nationwide on RTE asking if anyone knows anything to tell the gardai in confidence? would the rte people have known about the suspect? Surely they would have heard it researching it and they let her go saying that. There is another would you believe with Charlie and Mary I have not seen.

oranbhoy67

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmofDnpWEAA_dSL.jpg



this is the article i was referring to earlier it isn't the best quality and you may have to download it and zoom in .. I blanked out most names, the circled bit in yellow wasn't done by me but it contains the statement that the friendship between Superintendent Murray & "Mr Donegal FF County councillor " was mentioned several times in the RTE documentary from a few nights earlier

please tell me anyone if you can't access it and ill try a different way

fryup

jenny smith wrote: »

In the doc Mary's mother is hown on Nationwide on RTE asking if anyone knows anything to tell the gardai in confidence? would the rte people have known about the suspect? Surely they would have heard it researching it and they let her go saying that.

and her change of attitude since that programme is very strange

oranbhoy67

jenny smith wrote: »

In the doc Mary's mother is hown on Nationwide on RTE asking if anyone knows anything to tell the gardai in confidence? would the rte people have known about the suspect? Surely they would have heard it researching it and they let her go saying that. There is another would you believe with Charlie and Mary I have not seen.

well I do know that concerning The Sunday World article (6 page pull out) and series of videos that are referenced earlier in this thread. that the team of journos involved in that case phoned back to Dublin on the day they arrived there and announced that they knew from that first day who the killer was .. yet they have strangely done very little since, i thought at the time of reading the article that it painted last nights suspect in a not very flattering light , the videos don't either, that's the first time personally that I got it into my head that he could be involved .

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

well I do know that concerning The Sunday World article (6 page pull out) and series of videos that are referenced earlier in this thread. that the team of journos involved in that case phoned back to Dublin on the day they arrived there and announced that they knew from that first day who the killer was .. yet they have strangely done very little since, i thought at the time of reading the article that it painted last nights suspect in a not very flattering light , the videos don't either, that's the first time personally that I got it into my head that he could be involved .

Thanks for the jpeg. If anyone has trouble seeing it hold control button and press the plus and the page increases. Count how many presses then reduce with control minus

and series of videos that are referenced earlier in this thread

any of them online?

NIMAN

Just catching up on some of the comments since I posted last night.

The programme has been on my mind all day, so in that respect maybe it was successful and will have people talk about the case again.

Obviously now we all know what the most likely outcome of what happened the poor little girl.

It appears she was abused by a relative, and was likely to mention it, so was killed, either accidently or deliberately. This relative would more than likely have been questioned by the police and told the truth, until a local politician requested that the police leave him alone. This was the spanner in the whole investigation and which has meant the killer hasn't been found to this day. And now even the victims mother knows who did it, yet doesn't want the person prosecuted for fear of embarrassing the family.

You'd say this was a badly written and crazy story, if you didn't know it actually happened. From the outside, its an awful indictment of our police and legal system, that an obvious child killer is still walking around when the dogs in the street know who it is.

But some things are still troubling me and are making me think other things are at play here.

1) The killer had abused the little girl and was afraid she'd mention it, so afraid that he was prepared to kill her to shut her up (assuming the murder was a deliberate act). Now, it appears that the people who he was afraid would find out, the girls family, did find out anyway, and yet they seemed to have forgiven the killer enough to ask that people stop talking about the case and not open any investigatons or inquests.

2) The worrying one for me.
How a local politician felt that he had to ask the police not to continue their investigation. According to some, he did this simply because the killer was a member of the FF party, like himself. Now this doesn't stack up for me. Could we imagine this was done simply because the politican was worried about the FF party image? Come on, thats nonsense. If one of your work colleagues, or best friends, or family member abused and murdered a child, there is no way you'd cover up for them. Let alone someone as loosely connected to you as simply being a member of the same political party as you.

This is what I would worry about. It must have been done for more serious reasons. I can't get it out of my head but it would surely be because the killer might possibly say something in questioning that would incriminate others? Possibly the politician? Or members of the Gardai? Or people even higher up? How else can you explain a case being blocked so much and with such vigour?

Now the worrying thing. Was the killer just one person who was involved in a child abuse ring in the area? Did he know others in it? If he was taken in for questioning, would the deck of cards all start to fall? Who knows?

Its only speculation on my part, but for me this case is just so obvious and so easily solved, that there has to be someone greater at play here, otherwise it would have been sorted out years ago and that little girls remains would have been found.

fryup

and don't forget a school girl went missing in Co Sligo just 7 years earlier

maybe unrelated i don't know

oranbhoy67

NIMAN wrote: »

Just catching up on some of the comments since I posted last night.

The programme has been on my mind all day, so in that respect maybe it was successful and will have people talk about the case again.

Obviously now we all know what the most likely outcome of what happened the poor little girl.

It appears she was abused by a relative, and was likely to mention it, so was killed, either accidently or deliberately. This relative would more than likely have been questioned by the police and told the truth, until a local politician requested that the police leave him alone. This was the spanner in the whole investigation and which has meant the killer hasn't been found to this day. And now even the victims mother knows who did it, yet doesn't want the person prosecuted for fear of embarrassing the family.

You'd say this was a badly written and crazy story, if you didn't know it actually happened. From the outside, its an awful indictment of our police and legal system, that an obvious child killer is still walking around when the dogs in the street know who it is.

But some things are still troubling me and are making me think other things are at play here.

1) The killer had abused the little girl and was afraid she'd mention it, so afraid that he was prepared to kill her to shut her up (assuming the murder was a deliberate act). Now, it appears that the people who he was afraid would find out, the girls family, did find out anyway, and yet they seemed to have forgiven the killer enough to ask that people stop talking about the case and not open any investigatons or inquests.

2) The worrying one for me.
How a local politician felt that he had to ask the police not to continue their investigation. According to some, he did this simply because the killer was a member of the FF party, like himself. Now this doesn't stack up for me. Could we imagine this was done simply because the politican was worried about the FF party image? Come on, thats nonsense. If one of your work colleagues, or best friends, or family member abused and murdered a child, there is no way you'd cover up for them. Let alone someone as loosely connected to you as simply being a member of the same political party as you.

This is what I would worry about. It must have been done for more serious reasons. I can't get it out of my head but it would surely be because the killer might possibly say something in questioning that would incriminate others? Possibly the politician? Or members of the Gardai? Or people even higher up? How else can you explain a case being blocked so much and with such vigour?

Now the worrying thing. Was the killer just one person who was involved in a child abuse ring in the area? Did he know others in it? If he was taken in for questioning, would the deck of cards all start to fall? Who knows?

Its only speculation on my part, but for me this case is just so obvious and so easily solved, that there has to be someone greater at play here, otherwise it would have been sorted out years ago and that little girls remains would have been found.

a very insightful and well thought out post, i can't disagree with any of it , thank you very much

oranbhoy67

jenny smith wrote: »

Thanks for the jpeg. If anyone has trouble seeing it hold control button and press the plus and the page increases. Count how many presses then reduce with control minus
any of them online?

Jellybaby1

Trial by media or social media cannot be right. But this case has so many things wrong with it, its about time there was a proper investigation. I was mulling over this during the last few weeks with Mary's face now firmly on my mind. I realised there is one very important person missing from the whole scenario who could have some sway to change the mother's mind. Someone who is called after every tragic accident, death, violence. Someone who is called to bring succour to families and who is always rolled out for the cameras and interviewed by journalists. The local PP. Anyone know if the PP was asked to be mediator? Just a thought really, as you would think this family would be quite religious.

oranbhoy67

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Trial by media or social media cannot be right. But this case has so many things wrong with it, its about time there was a proper investigation. I was mulling over this during the last few weeks with Mary's face now firmly on my mind. I realised there is one very important person missing from the whole scenario who could have some sway to change the mother's mind. Someone who is called after every tragic accident, death, violence. Someone who is called to bring succour to families and who is always rolled out for the cameras and interviewed by journalists. The local PP. Anyone know if the PP was asked to be mediator? Just a thought really, as you would think this family would be quite religious.

The mother certainly was religious, she sprayed holy water around the house before she even rang the gardai, the rest i cant answer