UCD or RCSI?

etymon

WoolahUrma wrote: »

Well I'm trying to decide between the two Dublin places. If one produces gem students that compare more favourably to the LC in the final rankings then I would read that as one college preparing their gems a like better.

That said, I'm going through the fine detail now, almost for my own amusement. There's nothing in it.

But sure this will change from year to year, depending on the undergrads and the GEMs. As you all finish in the last two years together, it makes no odds at all who is better as we are all prepared the same for the same exams! This would be a strange reason to pick a college IMHO. Just do your own work and don't worry about the others. There will always be someone better than you at something or at everything! And someone worse... one hopes...

WoolahUrma

etymon wrote: »

But sure this will change from year to year, depending on the undergrads and the GEMs. As you all finish in the last two years together, it makes no odds at all who is better as we are all prepared the same for the same exams! This would be a strange reason to pick a college IMHO. Just do your own work and don't worry about the others. There will always be someone better than you at something or at everything! And someone worse... one hopes...

Hey. Yeah, i get that but the point i was trying to make was that if one college produces a cohort that does better than the LC entrants compared to the cohort from the other college then that, to me, says that one group of students have been better prepared. If I do my stuff in both colleges but because of the work load, materials focused on etc I end up doing better rank wise because GEP/M's are prepared better in one place more so than the other then that makes a difference.

I'm sure that there is not much in it but like I was saying I haven't got long left and I'm having a tough time splitting them

Did ye get ranked in first and second year?

Biologic

WoolahUrma wrote: »

if one college produces a cohort that does better than the LC entrants compared to the cohort from the other college then that, to me, says that one group of students have been better prepared.

That's a bit of a superficial conclusion. It could also mean that one college prepares both groups better OR worse, but the undergrads/geps are still better or worse than eachother relatively. Or it could mean that, like in RCSI, you have a higher proportion of people who have language or cultural issues which tends to put them toward the bottom half of the class rankings. There are loads of reasons why the 2 groups might be different.

WoolahUrma

Biologic wrote: »

That's a bit of a superficial conclusion. It could also mean that one college prepares both groups better OR worse, but the undergrads/geps are still better or worse than eachother relatively. Or it could mean that, like in RCSI, you have a higher proportion of people who have language or cultural issues which tends to put them toward the bottom half of the class rankings. There are loads of reasons why the 2 groups might be different.

I'm assuming, given what I've read so far that all of the institutions that teach medicine prepare their students to a very high level. The only two that I'm comparing are UCD and RCSI. I want to get the most in depth understanding of both before I go in. Im sure that both prepare students perfectly well and I intend to work very hard wherever I go. I have the understanding that the higher your class ranking the better so if I ask these questions and it turns out that the UCD GEM's (for aruments sake) rank higher overall than the GEP's, thats info worth having.

To be honest I hadn't taken the foreign students into account and that might skew an average ranking alright.

I have a suspicion that the first two years in RCSI are more intensive than UCD. From what I have read, it seems as though the transition from second to third year is a little more seemless for RCSI students. I've read UCD GEM's writing that third year is a big shock. RCSI students haven't emphasised this as much so I'm wondering if the first two year in RCSI is a better prep for the clinical years.

diverboy83

In a dalliance with stoicism, I honestly am not sure any of this matters once you are on the course. You will work hard and enjoy whichever one you choose and will wonder, at the end, why you ever thought of going to another Uni. I would be strongly guided by how you feel about the place, rather than trying to discern the undiscernible. There are other factors, which have been discussed ad infinitum here, but I think this is what it ultimately comes down to...

demure

Is it mad to choose RCSI over UCD if one lives in South Co Dublin (and cannot move)?

pc11

diverboy83 wrote: »

In a dalliance with stoicism, I honestly am not sure any of this matters once you are on the course. You will work hard and enjoy whichever one you choose and will wonder, at the end, why you ever thought of going to another Uni. I would be strongly guided by how you feel about the place, rather than trying to discern the undiscernible. There are other factors, which have been discussed ad infinitum here, but I think this is what it ultimately comes down to...

Yes, I fancy this is pretty much right, though the one thing that is discernible is the cost.

nomoreexams

demure wrote: »

Is it mad to choose RCSI over UCD if one lives in South Co Dublin (and cannot move)?

I dont think it's mad - I'm thinking UCD but I'm looking at places on the north side. You'll be grand for first year, second year might be a pain but you'll get used to the commute, then God knows where third and fourth will be. That's another reason I'm leaning towards UCD because at least I can be more certain I'll be in Dublin for the 4 years whereas RCSI I could end up anywhere, their hospitals seem to be more spread out through the country.

demure

nomoreexams wrote: »

I dont think it's mad - I'm thinking UCD but I'm looking at places on the north side. You'll be grand for first year, second year might be a pain but you'll get used to the commute, then God knows where third and fourth will be. That's another reason I'm leaning towards UCD because at least I can be more certain I'll be in Dublin for the 4 years whereas RCSI I could end up anywhere, they're hospitals seem to be more spread out through the country.

You are so right there about years 3 and 4...

I can't help but love RCSI though: the general vibe, the smaller setting, the facilities... Cannot say I am too enamoured with the UCD campus, though, as someone mentioned here earlier, they both offer a fantastic course!

nomoreexams

demure wrote: »

You are so right there about years 3 and 4...

I can't help but love RCSI though: the general vibe, the smaller setting, the facilities... Cannot say I am too enamoured with the UCD campus, though, as someone mentioned here earlier, they both offer a fantastic course!

I have to agree with you, I don't like the overall UCD campus although I do love the health sciences building. If you love RSCI then go for it, all the other stuff like location will fall into place & if they don't you'll get over them because you're in the course you want!

pc11

nomoreexams wrote: »

I have to agree with you, I don't like the overall UCD campus although I do love the health sciences building. If you love RSCI then go for it, all the other stuff like location will fall into place & if they don't you'll get over them because you're in the course you want!

Did you not find the UCD med building chaotic with hundreds of undergrads, nurses, physios, radiographers etc milling around everywhere? I felt like there was no place for GEMs to have a base or quiet space. What I liked about RCSI was it was small and focussed with the whole place dedicated to us, and with a lounge and kitchen and all the rest.

I say this a UCD grad who loves the place generally. Maybe I'm just getting old!:eek:

nomoreexams

pc11 wrote: »

Did you not find the UCD med building chaotic with hundreds of undergrads, nurses, physios, radiographers etc milling around everywhere? I felt like there was no place for GEMs to have a base or quiet space. What I liked about RCSI was it was small and focussed with the whole place dedicated to us, and with a lounge and kitchen and all the rest.

I say this a UCD grad who loves the place generally. Maybe I'm just getting old!:eek:

It is very chaotic but then we're facing a life time of chaotic hospitals with all of the above milling around, so I might as well get used to it. My current job (or as of a few weeks ago my 'old job') was incredibly chaotic but I liked that. I like having a bit of energy and mess around me.

Although I do like the idea of the quiet and calm of RCSI as well I think it could be quite isolated from the rest of the student body and possibly a bit lonely.

The one thing that I feel may be an issue for me with UCD would be the fact that the majority of people in the Health Sciences Building would be on the younger side of things but then I'd rather be surrounded with younger people than be surrounded by next to no one.

diverboy83

nomoreexams wrote: »

The one thing that I feel may be an issue for me with UCD would be the fact that the majority of people in the Health Sciences Building would be on the younger side of things but then I'd rather be surrounded with younger people than be surrounded by next to no one.

I'm not sure that will be the case as there will be such a mix of people. Unless are really on the mature side of things (and by that I mean over 50!), then I don't think you will feel like the place is full of nothing by young uns. With so many courses on offer, including at postgrad level, coupled with the overall demographic of GEM students, being an "older" student won't be an issue. Besides, I keep thinking of when I was an undergrad and there were two ladies in their late 40s/early 50s in my class who had gone back to college to study for a degree. If they can do it at that age...

nomoreexams

Absolutely. I don't doubt that there will certainly be older students, it's just the majority would surely be between 18-23. I could be wrong but any time I've been out there from appearance it seems the average age is early 20's. Not that any of that makes any difference in the slightest, I suppose it's just a comparison with RCSI that in RCSI because you're separated from the other students you'll only have your class who will be an average of mid to late 20's (from what's been said in previous posts).

diverboy83

That will only be for the first two years in RCSI though as undergrad and GEM are combined for years 3 and 4. Did you see Etymon's post on that point? It was quite interesting.

diverboy83

Sorry, it seems like I am doing the hard sell on UCD! Far from it!

nomoreexams

haha not at all. I suppose I'm just nit picking at this stage. I'm quite happy I have UCD down as number 1. It wouldn't take much to convince me to change my mind admittedly but that would be the way no matter which one was on top. Yeah I saw Etymons post. I suppose for both colleges really everything changes in year 3 & 4 once you're in and out of the hospitals.

pc11

I just had a long conversation with the Head of Admissions at RCSI, Phillip Curtis. He was happy to speak to me for more than 30 minutes and he was informative, frank and helpful and I was impressed.

Headline points:

• Fees will not go up this year. He spoke to HEA today and HEA says there will be no change in NDP grant or in capitation fee. He said undergrad fees will go up by €250 or so, but not GEM.
• He agreed it was completely unfair to to us to not have full info on fees before applying. From talking to HEA last week and now RCSI I believe there will be pressure to settle this matter earlier in future years.
• RCSI is very keen to reduce the fees differential with UCD. They are most eager to remain the most desired GEP school to get in to and there has been internal discussion about this and not allowing RCSI to become any less attractive than UCD.
• As to why RCSI costs more than UCD, he told me in detail how RCSI is funded quite differently from the other colleges and doesn't get the same block funding from government. RCSI is a private institution.
• He's as annoyed with the banks as we are, with some rather choice language about AIB in particular
• He strongly supports cheap state-backed loans and has strong feelings on the whole funding system for higher education in this country.
• He agreed the government position of bringing in GEM without adequate loan access is ridiculous.
• RCSI asked Ulster Bank before to broaden their loan offering and they didn't go for it
• Controversy alert: he says GAMSAT score predicts med school performance well. I asked for some data and he thinks they published some in the past.
• I fed back that some people said found RCSI not easy to get info from. He said he would consider that internally and see what to do.

Ask me questions if you like.

nomoreexams

I just heard back from Celeste Golden. She said the same as you heard PC about the fees. I asked was there any way of avoiding the IT fees, but there isn't at the moment but the issue will be raised for future years. However a percentage of the fee goes towards having access to online notes etc. so it probably wouldn't decrease by much.

The other issue for me was whether the extra €2,000 could be paid in instalments throughout the year but for first year fees have to be paid up front. There is an instalment option from second year onwards (usually done in 2 instalments).

If ye have any questions or issues she asked to email RCSI rather than calling because the hardcopy issues can be forwarded to management to be considered.

BobbyOLGrinds

pc11 wrote: »

• Controversy alert: he says GAMSAT score predicts med school performance well. I asked for some data and he thinks they published some in the past.

There has been data published in the past alright. Have a look.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17309399

There was no association between performance in GAMSAT and performance in the CRPs; there was a weak negative correlation between performance in GAMSAT and the DTI (- 0.05 > r > - 0.31, P = 0.03). The correlation between GAMSAT and examination results was weak (r < 0.24, P = 0.02). The correlation between GAMSAT and interview scores for each school was weakly negative for University of Queensland (r = - 0.34, P < 0.01) and weakly positive for University of Sydney (r = 0.11), with a combined significance level P < 0.01.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18341459

Selection criteria explained 21.9% of variation in overall total score, falling from 28.2% in Year 1 to 17.7% in Year 4. This was highest for the written examination in Year 1 (30.5%) and lowest for the clinical examination in Year 4 (10.9%). GPA was most strongly correlated with academic performance (eg, for overall score, partial Spearman's correlation coefficient [pSCC], 0.47; P < 0.001), followed by interviews (pSCC, 0.12; P = 0.004) and GAMSAT (pSCC, 0.07; P = 0.08). The association between GPA and performance waned from Year 1 to Year 4, while the association between interview score and performance increased from Year 1 to Year 4.

Just a thought, I had a GAMSAT score in the 99th centile, I scored 72 overall with I think, 84 in section III. I scored a reasonable 2:1 in medicine. People with worse GAMSAT scores did much better than me. Undergrads did much better than me. In a similar vein, I did much better than some other people. I realise my sample size of 1 isn't all that powerful, but I thought I'd throw my 2c in on the matter.

I'm not picking out you pc11, this is just in general, your GAMSAT score only matters in getting you accepted to the course. Nothing else.

Great news on the fees not going up by the way, that's always helpful.

etymon

I got 96th centile in GAMSAT and similar at end of 3rd GEM/4th med i.e. this year. No idea how it went in GEP1 or 2, they don't rank you, there is a rumour you can ask for it but I tried it and it didn't work out (someone in HR said ah yes, you are on 3rd centile, that means you are in top 30 percent of class so after a long pause I decided not to re-query that one.)

Please bear in mind that class centiles for Irish people staying here are only useful for two things. 1. ego and 2. not ending up on the other side of the country for intern year. I have heard that 80% of people get a top 3 choice for intern year, though I have no source for this and it may have changed this year. Nobody is ever going to care where you came in your class if you stay here.

Good research on fees lads, thanks for that!

pc11

BobbyOLGrinds wrote: »

There has been data published in the past alright. Have a look.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17309399


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18341459

Just a thought, I had a GAMSAT score in the 99th centile, I scored 72 overall with I think, 84 in section III. I scored a reasonable 2:1 in medicine. People with worse GAMSAT scores did much better than me. Undergrads did much better than me. In a similar vein, I did much better than some other people. I realise my sample size of 1 isn't all that powerful, but I thought I'd throw my 2c in on the matter.

I'm not picking out you pc11, this is just in general, your GAMSAT score only matters in getting you accepted to the course. Nothing else.

Great news on the fees not going up by the way, that's always helpful.

Interesting, thanks. He was referring to RCSI's data specifically. He volunteered this info, I didn't ask him. What he was getting at was that Ulster Bank should treat RCSI students at least as well as UL students for loans, and in passing he said RCSI students should be an even better risk because of the correlation they see in scores vs. later performance.

As Irish colleges use GAMSAT only, and the Aussie colleges use broader criteria, there may not be a direct comparison of course. A GAMSAT that would easily get you in in Ireland might not even get you an interview in Oz. So, it's to be expected that the correlation would be much weaker in Oz. So, I'd love to see Irish data.

What I would be interested in (academically speaking) is a blind study, that is not knowing your GAMSAT score, and seeing the correlation with performance. You could easily imagine a high GAMSATter getting lazy once they get in and a borderline entrant working their ass off. Also, in medicine, there's not the same drive to get firsts and 2:1 like there would be in many undergrads, there is a sense in which middle of the class is just fine, so that would weaken the observed correlation.

Your own anecdotal experience doesn't tell us much, as a good scientist like yourself will know. I got 97th percentile myself, so who knows what that means. The one thing I think we can all agree on is that your attitude to GAMSAT does correlate well with your score!

Anyway, it may not really matter as you say, it's just an interesting question is all. I'm not sure what better test there would be. Googling shows some correlation between MCAT and USMLE.

pc11

etymon wrote: »

I got 96th centile in GAMSAT and similar at end of 3rd GEM/4th med i.e. this year. No idea how it went in GEP1 or 2, they don't rank you, there is a rumour you can ask for it but I tried it and it didn't work out (someone in HR said ah yes, you are on 3rd centile, that means you are in top 30 percent of class so after a long pause I decided not to re-query that one.)

Please bear in mind that class centiles for Irish people staying here are only useful for two things. 1. ego and 2. not ending up on the other side of the country for intern year. I have heard that 80% of people get a top 3 choice for intern year, though I have no source for this and it may have changed this year. Nobody is ever going to care where you came in your class if you stay here.

Good research on fees lads, thanks for that!

Is there no ranking at all given in Year 1/2 or some kind of feedback on how you did? It would be really useful to be able to gauge how our effort level is doing and adjust if needed.

BobbyOLGrinds

pc11 wrote: »

Interesting, thanks. He was referring to RCSI's data specifically. He volunteered this info, I didn't ask him. What he was getting at was that Ulster Bank should treat RCSI students at least as well as UL students for loans, and in passing he said RCSI students should be an even better risk because of the correlation they see in scores vs. later performance.

The last part there is something I would have thought the bank would have looked at. I would have assumed if you were getting into RCSI or UCD that your chance of failing was much lower. Mind you, when you get into medicine (and I assume you will with a 97th centile rank!), you'll discover it is incredibly hard to fail as courses go.

As Irish colleges use GAMSAT only, and the Aussie colleges use broader criteria, there may not be a direct comparison of course. In Australia, a GAMSAT that would easily get you in in Ireland, might not even get you an interview in Oz. So, it's to be expected that the correlation would be much weaker in Oz. I'd love to see Irish data.

True story. Interesting that the Aussie scores are so much higher across the board. I find it hard to believe that as a population they do better than us but I've nothing to substantiate that with. As far as I know there hasn't been anything published to the same extent using an Irish dataset, though I'm happy to be proved wrong on that.

What I would be interested in (academically speaking) is a blind study, that is not knowing your GAMSAT score, and seeing the correlation with performance. You could easily imagine a high GAMSATter getting lazy once they get in and a borderline entrant working their ass off. Also, in medicine, there's not the same drive to get firsts and 2:1 like there would be in many undergrads, there is a sense in which middle of the class is just fine, so that would weaken the observed correlation.

Most people are not happy with the middle of the class I've found. There may not be a drive for specific grades but there is a drive to get a better centile rank and thus a better job. You're right in that 2:1's and Firsts aren't looked at the same though.

Your own anecdotal experience doesn't tell us much, as a good scientist like yourself will know. I got 97th percentile myself, so who knows what that means. The one thing I think we can all agree on is that your attitude to GAMSAT does correlate well with your score!

Ha. You're giving me more credit than I deserve as a scientist. I believe my GAMSAT score means that I did well at a particular test in March 2009.

Anyway, it may not really matter as you say, it's just an interesting question is all. I'm not sure what better test there would be. Googling shows some correlation between MCAT and USMLE.

Maybe it correlates with the pre-clinical years but personally, I find it hard to believe that my ability to write an essay in under 30 mins had anything to do with my OSCE scores. I won't get into it here but there's a whole confidence/showmanship element to scoring well in medical exams that isn't common to many other disciplines.

Well done on your results by the way. I'm sure you'll do grand in either of the colleges.

etymon

BobbyOLGrinds wrote: »

Most people are not happy with the middle of the class I've found. .

True dat but as we were warned on the first day: "50% of you will be in the bottom half of the class!"

Work hard and show up to stuff and you'll be grand.

pocketkings

Hi guys, very helpful thread, thanks to all the contributors. I'm in the same boat as you, demure, living on the south side and leaning towards picking RCSI, it's really close though and I reckon I'll be happy wherever I end up. I live beside the m50 so the distance thing isnt that important for years 1&2 anyway, I'm pretty close to sandyford and blanch is only a half hour away on the m50. I talked to a 3rd year UCD undergrad about it though and he advised me to pick whichever was more convenient to get to, particularly for 3rd and 4th year. With the workload, the less time spent travelling the better.

Another thing he mentioned was that (again, this is the undergrad course, not sure about gem) in UCD you could basically skip all the lectures and cram for the exams, this is exactly how I got through my first degree and I'd rather be in an environment that didn't allow this, just in case I get a month or two in and find myself slipping back into bad habits! The close relationship between staff and students in RCSI is probably the biggest draw for me.

A couple of things Ive been wondering about:

Anyone know about how foreign electives in UCD are organised? RCSI are supposed to be very helpful in this regard and have several US electives that get filled every year. They are supposed to be a nightmare to try and organise by yourself. Do the students at UCD get much help in this regard?

I've heard a few people mention the canteen at RCSI, free tea & coffee, what food is there and what sort of price is it?

RCSI give you a laptop, and then according to some, charge you an IT fee of ridiculous proportions. How much is this fee? Is it part of the normal fees or do you have to pay separately? What are the specs of the laptop?

pocketkings

Heh, just realised that was my first ever post. Only took me two years!

nomoreexams

IT charges are part of the fees and include the laptop and then a tablet for the clinical years.


Fees for the 2013/14 academic year are:

Fees
GEP Tuition Fee
24580
Less NDP Grant
-10000
Tuition Payable by student
14580
Capitation
1500
IT Fee
475
Vaccination Fee (first year only)
250
NUI (first year only)
135
TOTAL FEE DUE FROM STUDENT
€16,940

Also, the canteen from what I saw was a room with a small kitchen, there's no food as such, just a fridge & microwave so you can bring in your own.

Also undergrad is a year longer than gem course so the GEM course will be more intense because there's a year less to cover the same material so you're not going to have that problem.

WoolahUrma

I'm assuming that we can change mind online on sunday?

nomoreexams

WoolahUrma wrote: »

I'm assuming that we can change mind online on sunday?

We can change our minds up to 5.00 on Monday. I'm still thinking about changing my mind again. This is just ridiculous. What's your number 1 at the moment?