Clermont Auvergne...

[Jackass] · 19-05-2013 8:18pm

I hate to say it, but Clermont are complete and utter bottlers.

I still think they are the best team in Europe, but I think a combination of their history in the Top14 and possibly the psychological damage done to them by Leinster (or perhaps done to themselves by themselves in games against Leinster) have left a tangible sense of fear run through their team.

No offence to Munster fans, but in the semi they completely bottled it, they were in their shell all day and didn't have that flowing fearlessness about them that they had in the group stages, I'd love to credit Munster for that, and Munster did superb in the semi, gave them a hell of a lot more of a game than I expected, but that was not the same Clermont team as earlier in the competition.

Same happened in the final, built a bit of a lead and then panicked for the remainder of the game, made silly decisions under pressure, they couldn't even organise a half decent drop goal attempt towards the end, and in the last play, in front of the posts in the 22, lost it by going wide and a fumble by a prop on the wing.... madness....

They bottled it in the RDS a few years ago, then bottled it in Lansdowne, they didn't bottle it in Bordeaux last season when Leinster beat them, but enraged them to the extent that they played Leinster with anger and no fear they were so fed up with the crushing defeats and man shamed us, but by God they were a callow shadow of themselves in the knock outs.

I really really feel for their supporters, but I have to say I think Leinster would have comfortably beaten either of those finalists on the day. Toulon weren't great, but Clermont just fell to pieces in the second half.

Even the 3 - 3 half time score was a good indicator of what a clumbsy game full of fear and conservatism and nerves it was from both teams. Good drama but very disappointing final in terms of quality.

Absolutely gutted for Clermont though.

Rightwing · 19-05-2013 8:32pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

I hate to say it, but Clermont are complete and utter bottlers.

I still think they are the best team in Europe, but I think a combination of their history in the Top14 and possibly the psychological damage done to them by Leinster (or perhaps done to themselves by themselves in games against Leinster) have left a tangible sense of fear run through their team.

No offence to Munster fans, but in the semi they completely bottled it, they were in their shell all day and didn't have that flowing fearlessness about them that they had in the group stages, I'd love to credit Munster for that, and Munster did superb in the semi, gave them a hell of a lot more of a game than I expected, but that was not the same Clermont team as earlier in the competition.

Same happened in the final, built a bit of a lead and then panicked for the remainder of the game, made silly decisions under pressure, they couldn't even organise a half decent drop goal attempt towards the end, and in the last play, in front of the posts in the 22, lost it by going wide and a fumble by a prop on the wing.... madness....

They bottled it in the RDS a few years ago, then bottled it in Lansdowne, they didn't bottle it in Bordeaux last season when Leinster beat them, but enraged them to the extent that they played Leinster with anger and no fear they were so fed up with the crushing defeats and man shamed us, but by God they were a callow shadow of themselves in the knock outs.

I really really feel for their supporters, but I have to say I think Leinster would have comfortably beaten either of those finalists on the day. Toulon weren't great, but Clermont just fell to pieces in the second half.

Even the 3 - 3 half time score was a good indicator of what a clumbsy game full of fear and conservatism and nerves it was from both teams. Good drama but very disappointing final in terms of quality.

Absolutely gutted for Clermont though.

I don't think they bottled it yesterday. Toulon are a very good team as well. Was always going to be a very tight one.

Teferi · 19-05-2013 8:39pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Nah, the more knowledgeable posters realise French clubs are just getting stronger and stronger, buying who they want, when they want.

It's funny that such a knowledgeable poster wouldn't know about the new rules the French are introducing...?

thomond2006 wrote: »

They've been doing that for years. With the JIFF rules set to increase, they won't be able to to the same degree in future seasons. The French national team is suffering and eventually they'll get their way to restrict the bulk purchasing of foreigners. With is happening already is French clubs are signing Pacific Islanders at 18 so they can qualify as a French produced player (Noa Nakitaci at Clermont or Virimi Vakatawa at Racing are two examples). However they are so many talented foreign youngsters that will be available to do this.

Fact: The top three Irish provinces are in Tier One and will avoid Toulon, Toulouse and Clermont in the group stages.

So all three provinces will have a very good chance of qualifying. After that it is hit and miss and will depend on home quarter-finals. I'd give any of the Irish provinces a good chance against any French side at home. I wouldn't fancy Castres to make an impact next year, particularly if they lose Kockott which is almost certain.

Rightwing · 19-05-2013 8:44pm

Teferi wrote: »

It's funny that such a knowledgeable poster wouldn't know about the new rules the French are introducing...?

Ya, the new rules stopped Racing from getting Sexton along with 13 others. Quite severe rules indeed.

Chuckle chuckle.

thomond2006 · 19-05-2013 8:50pm

Teferi wrote: »

It's funny that such a knowledgeable poster wouldn't know about the new rules the French are introducing...?

Quotes from Paul Goze, president of the LNR (equivalent of Celtic Rugby or Premier Rugby in France):

Êtes-vous prêt à imposer un quota de joueurs sélectionnables sur les feuilles de match ?

Oui. Je ne vais pas vous dire un chiffre aujourd’hui. Mais je considère que ce problème est important. On va imposer un seuil de joueurs JIFF sur la feuille de match et mettre en place un système incitatif à la manière des Anglais dès la saison 2014-2015. Les clubs qui feront mieux toucheront de l’argent en plus.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2013/04/15/pas-de-revolution-1025110-5103.php

Translation:

Are you read to impose a quota on eligible players on matchday squads?

Yes. I cannot give you a statistic today however. But it is an important issue. We will impose a minimum of JIFF players on the matchday squad and will put in an incentive system similar to the English system from the 2014-2015 season. The clubs that make the best effort will receive the most money.

Ya, the new rules stopped Racing from getting Sexton along with 13 others. Quite severe rules indeed.

Chuckle chuckle.

Re-read my post, I never said anything about the rules being sufficient now did I? Also plenty of the players Racing have signed are French.

There are ways around it but eventually it will force French clubs to develop more French qualified players and prevent the mass purchase of quick fix foreigners.

irishbucsfan · 19-05-2013 8:50pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Ya, the new rules stopped Racing from getting Sexton along with 13 others. Quite severe rules indeed.

Chuckle chuckle.

You realise they've lost 14 players as well?

Actually that could be 15, is Bergamasco confirmed to be leaving?

Buer · 19-05-2013 8:51pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Ya, the new rules stopped Racing from getting Sexton along with 13 others. Quite severe rules indeed.

Chuckle chuckle.

They've released 9 non-French players and, of those they've signed, 7 are French. They'll be within the increased percentage quota just by a player or two.

Have you actually read the stipulations?

Rightwing · 19-05-2013 8:57pm

Buer wrote: »

They've released 9 non-French players and, of those they've signed, 7 are French. They'll be within the increased percentage quota just by a player or two.

Have you actually read the stipulations?

basically they've released dead wood. france is the best place to be i'd have liked habana gone to munster but not a chance, toulon have the money.

thomond2006 · 19-05-2013 8:59pm

Rightwing wrote: »

basically they've released dead wood. france is the best place to be i'd have liked habana gone to munster but not a chance, toulon have the money.

They won't be able to do it forever, that's my point. The quotas will have to find a balance between developing French qualified players and keeping the clubs strong. Inevitably the clubs will weaken.

Also people like Lorenzetti, Boudjellal and Savare aren't in it for the long haul if it's not going to benefit them financially. If the Racing project fails and the new stadium is a white elephant then Lorenzetti will pull his support. There's always that chance with privately owned clubs.

trouttrout · 19-05-2013 8:59pm

Rightwing wrote: »

basically they've released dead wood. france is the best place to be i'd have liked habana gone to munster but not a chance, toulon have the money.

What players would you say are dead wood?

irishbucsfan · 19-05-2013 9:02pm

Rightwing wrote: »

basically they've released dead wood. france is the best place to be i'd have liked habana gone to munster but not a chance, toulon have the money.

Do you understand the new rules at all?

Buer · 19-05-2013 9:04pm

Rightwing wrote: »

basically they've released dead wood. france is the best place to be i'd have liked habana gone to munster but not a chance, toulon have the money.

Noirot and Mathieu Belie were dead wood? That's a capped hooker and a French bloke who plays 9 and 10 and was starting for them in the T14? You don't have a rashers.

[Jackass] · 20-05-2013 1:03pm

Rightwing wrote: »

basically they've released dead wood. france is the best place to be i'd have liked habana gone to munster but not a chance, toulon have the money.

It would be such an absurd signing, wouldn't it!

I imagine Leinster would have fought tooth and nail for his signature too....

Imagine Habana in your backline.... :eek:

pajunior · 20-05-2013 1:34pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

It would be such an absurd signing, wouldn't it!

I imagine Leinster would have fought tooth and nail for his signature too....

Imagine Habana in your backline.... :eek:

They're shopping in different stores altogether.

Rightwing · 20-05-2013 1:37pm

pajunior wrote: »

They're shopping in different stores altogether.

Yep, Munster are down in Lidls counting their coppers :mad:

thomond2006 · 20-05-2013 1:39pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Yep, Munster are down in Lidls counting their coppers :mad:

Nah the Irish provinces get to shop in Tesco sometimes. It's the Welsh regions who can only afford to go to Lidl.

Rightwing · 20-05-2013 1:52pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nah the Irish provinces get to shop in Tesco sometimes. It's the Welsh regions who can only afford to go to Lidl.

True enough, altho I do see fewer and fewer top players coming into Munster. I wonder have we seen the last of the howlett type.

Buer · 20-05-2013 2:00pm

Rightwing wrote: »

True enough, altho I do see fewer and fewer top players coming into Munster. I wonder have we seen the last of the howlett type.

You've had two Springboks and two All Blacks as your NIQ players last season and the SA U20 captain as your project player. What more do you want in terms of your foreign players?

.ak · 20-05-2013 2:02pm

Buer wrote: »

You've had two Springboks and two All Blacks as your NIQ players last season and the SA U20 captain as your project player. What more do you want in terms of your foreign players?

Carter.

20-05-2013 2:10pm

On the thread title, yes, unfortunately they seem to have a curse.

T14: 1 win, 10 Runners Up
Challenge Yves du Manoir : 3 wins - 6 Runners Up
Coupe de France: 0 wins - 2 Runners Up
Challenge Cup: 2 wins - 1 Runners Up
Heineken Cup: 0 wins - 1 Runners Up.

Finals: 6 wins - 20 Runners Up

There's a history of bridesmaids here that must be horrible to try to shake!

vienne86 · 20-05-2013 2:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

On the thread title, yes, unfortunately they seem to have a curse.

T14: 1 win, 10 Runners Up
Challenge Yves du Manoir : 3 wins - 6 Runners Up
Coupe de France: 0 wins - 2 Runners Up
Challenge Cup: 2 wins - 1 Runners Up
Heineken Cup: 0 wins - 1 Runners Up.

Finals: 6 wins - 20 Runners Up

There's a history of bridesmaids here that must be horrible to try to shake!

Looks as if they need some sessions with a good sports pshcyologist....or something.

.ak · 20-05-2013 2:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

On the thread title, yes, unfortunately they seem to have a curse.

T14: 1 win, 10 Runners Up
Challenge Yves du Manoir : 3 wins - 6 Runners Up
Coupe de France: 0 wins - 2 Runners Up
Challenge Cup: 2 wins - 1 Runners Up
Heineken Cup: 0 wins - 1 Runners Up.

Finals: 6 wins - 20 Runners Up

There's a history of bridesmaids here that must be horrible to try to shake!

Well, that's some damning stats.

who_me · 20-05-2013 2:27pm

There's definitely some serious heebie-jeebies going on. Even in the semi the mood changed dramatically when Munster got back within a score, the place got very nervous. Munster should never have been in a position to win that game, but had several chances to do so. And again in the final, in spite of a decent lead, Clermont started going into their shell. Look at the alignment before Armitage's try, they were so narrow even if they kept the ball, they could do nothing but play one-out rugby. And of course once turned over, they hadn't a hope.

It's such a pity. They must be one of the most loved teams in Europe - in terms of how they play and for their fans - I'd have loved to see them win.

tolosenc · 27-05-2013 6:22pm

In light of their result against Castres, should we maybe tone down the plaudits we give them. They are chokers when it comes to the crunch, pure and simple.

Swiwi · 27-05-2013 6:25pm

Keep this thread going, lads!!! It's music to the ears of this down-trodden AB fan, his team's only recent victory of note overshadowed by Craig-gate...

molloyjh · 28-05-2013 2:02pm

Got a message from one of my Clermont mates after the Pro12 final saying "congrats, it must feel very nice to win

". I really felt for the guy. Leinster were here before, but not for quite as long as Clermont have been. There needs to be a change somewhere. Be it through a coach like Cheika who gives the side a hard edge in those big games or whatever. It's sickening to think that their inability to produce the goods on the big stage will most likely lead to Tou-fecking-lon winning the double. Toulouse over the years weren't able to do it. Leinster the last few weren't. But this Toulon side is!?

tolosenc · 28-05-2013 2:14pm

molloyjh wrote: »

It's sickening to think that their inability to produce the goods on the big stage will most likely lead to Tou-fecking-lon winning the double. Toulouse over the years weren't able to do it. Leinster the last few weren't. But this Toulon side is!?

Allez Castres !

Buer · 28-05-2013 2:23pm

Toulouse did the double in the nineties.

Regardless, Clermont simply have a psychological block. If it was against the same team, you'd say they've a bogey team that are set up to beat them. But it's not a bogey team. It's multiple sides. Once they get into a knock out scenario, they turn to jelly and the further they go, the less clearly they think on the field. I may be jumping the gun but, with Cotter announcing his departure, I think their best days are behind them.

I know we've all seen the age profile of their first choice side but it really is a precarious state. They play an extremely high tempo, hard rucking game with a blitzkrieg attack in the backs. Probably their 4 most important players at the breakdown (arguably) are going to be between the ages of 34 and 37 next season. Their attack will be populated by the likes of Byrne and Rougerie who will be 33 and James/Delaney and Sivivatu who are also in their thirties. Chouly has been very good but I'd take a young Vermeulen ahead of him however he's past it now too.

It's going to take something very special to pick these guys up for another tilt at it all. Cotter's announcement so far in advance won't do them many favours either.

totallegend · 28-05-2013 2:31pm

tolosenc wrote: »

In light of their result against Castres, should we maybe tone down the plaudits we give them. They are chokers when it comes to the crunch, pure and simple.

I think it's more likely that Castres are very, very underrated on boards.ie. We don't give them enough credit because they can't be arsed with the HC, but they are a very good side.

That Toulon team would beat most international sides so no shame losing to them either (and Toulon got a pretty flukey try against the run of play).

So overall, I think people are being very hard on Clermont.

[Just as an aside, none of the teams who finished top of the table in the three main leagues will actually lift the trophy; Saracens, Ulster and Clermont]

seanm92 · 28-05-2013 5:36pm

vienne86 wrote: »

Looks as if they need some sessions with a good sports pshcyologist....or something.

Possibly... To be honest I think what they need most is a world class outhalf, IMO James has gone missing all too often in the big games, although in fairness I think he played well in the heineken cup final. I feel they need someone who can control and dominate games better

Clermont Auvergne...

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