Clermont Auvergne...

notreve

Are Clermont Auvergne the biggest chokers in professional sports?

discuss.....

sydthebeat

notreve wrote: »

Are Clermont Auvergne the biggest chokers in professional sports?

discuss.....

No.

runman

thet didnt bottle anything!

armitage bottled a clearance kick in the last 5 mins but they still managed to win.
great game 2 great sides, nothing in it.

AngeGal

I like Clermont Auvergne and think 'bottlers' is an unfair term to tag such a great team with. Notwithstanding that, the harsh reality is that they were the best team and failed to ensure their superiority was reflected on the scoreboard.

phog

AngeGal wrote: »

I like Clermont Auvergne and think 'bottlers' is an unfair term to tag such a great team with. Notwithstanding that, the harsh reality is that they were the best team and failed to ensure their superiority was reflected on the scoreboard.

+ 1

pickarooney

notreve wrote: »

Are Clermont Auvergne the biggest chokers in professional sports?

discuss.....

They're no US Ryder cup team

sydthebeat

AngeGal wrote: »

I like Clermont Auvergne and think 'bottlers' is an unfair term to tag such a great team with. Notwithstanding that, the harsh reality is that they were the best team and failed to ensure their superiority was reflected on the scoreboard.

for as good clermont were in attack, toulon were in defense. I agree that clermont were superior, but 'bottlers' isn't a fair reflection on toulon.

keith16

notreve wrote: »

Are Clermont Auvergne the biggest chokers in professional sports?

discuss.....

What do you think?

Cienciano

No. Mayo footballers are.

keith16

Cienciano wrote: »

No. Mayo footballers are.

GAA isn't professional.

Tobyglen

Near the top. They choked on a big scale today, dominated all the game yet couldn't do the business. It was the same last year against Leinster in the Semi when they were the better team. Not to mention the 10 Finals they lost beofre finally win the French championship.

This Clermont team should have 3 H-cups given the talent and the enormous budget at their disposal

thomond2006

Clermont could still win the Top14. That would make it one of their best seasons ever.

RuggieBear

no match spoilers in titles please

kksaints

SA cricket team in One-day and 20/20 international tournements are the biggest chokers.

thomond2006

If Clermont were chokers they would have lost to Munster in the semi-final.

tolosenc

I think they have massive issues with mentality in the club. They have lost so many finals in their history and won so little, it's got to be tough.

tolosenc

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Clermont were chokers they would have lost to Munster in the semi-final.

Ah now, let's be realistic...

:P

rrpc

I thought they were very poor in the red zone. Lots of handling errors that really drove me crazy, they'd get into a good scoring position and then fumble a pass or a pickup and lose possession, rinse and repeat.

Rolland let Toulon away with an awful lot at the breakdown too. It seemed the law on releasing the tackled player was more honoured in the breach. The only penalties he seemed to give in that area were for holding on.

Very frustrating match to watch.

vienne86

tolosenc wrote: »

I think they have massive issues with mentality in the club. They have lost so many finals in their history and won so little, it's got to be tough.

I agree, but let's see how they get on the the Top 14.

rrpc

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Clermont were chokers they would have lost to Munster in the semi-final.

They almost did ��

Shelflife

AngeGal wrote: »

I like Clermont Auvergne and think 'bottlers' is an unfair term to tag such a great team with. Notwithstanding that, the harsh reality is that they were the best team and failed to ensure their superiority was reflected on the scoreboard.

Is that not the definition of choking?

For all intents and purposes Clermont were home and hosed after the second try. Totally dominant at that time and couldn't put Toulon away. True it was a soft try that they gave away, but they lacked cool heads when they had the winning of the game at the end. Should have scored the dg and made a balls of it at the end.

Chokers may be harsh , but its not wide of the mark.

keith16

RuggieBear wrote: »

no match spoilers in titles please

To be fair, if anyone who hasn't seen the game / heard the result comes onto the Rugby forum before watching the game, they deserve to have it spoiled.

jimjamcos

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Clermont were chokers they would have lost to Munster in the semi-final.

They crawled over the line against Munster despite being lightyears ahead in quality of personnel. The longer the game went on and nervy it got, the more Munster looked like winning.

The definition of bottlers are teams who despite clearly being the best, fail to show it when the pressure comes on and games are there to be won e.g New Zealand in World Cups. Clermont are very close to that category based on both their Munster performance and today.

rrpc

jimjamcos wrote: »

They crawled over the line against Munster despite being lightyears ahead in quality of personnel. The longer the game went on and nervy it got, the more Munster looked like winning.

The definition of bottlers are teams who despite clearly being the best, fail to show it when the pressure comes on and games are there to be won e.g New Zealand in World Cups. Clermont are very close to that category based on both their Munster performance and today.

Quite true. One of the things Cheika brought to Leinster and Schmidt continued was utter ruthlessness. Once your foot is on the oppositions throat, you don't take it off for an instant until the final whistle.

Remember last year's final?

chris85

I think biggest chokers is not desrerved. I do believe they choked today. They were superior in their skills but they got into Toulon's 22 a number of times and failed to get much return on their efforts either due to poor work at the breakdown and also good defence by Toulon in fairness.

Also after the failed drop goal attempt they got back into Toulon's 22 and didnt seem to be looking for a drop goal as no one was back deep in the pocket, all were flat looking to run with ball. Was very suprised.

corny

rrpc wrote: »

Quite true. One of the things Cheika brought to Leinster and Schmidt continued was utter ruthlessness. Once your foot is on the oppositions throat, you don't take it off for an instant until the final whistle.

Remember last year's final?

Its more how you go about doing that thats important. Clermont never stopped trying to play rugby and extend their advantage. Arguably thats what cost them the game.

Changing tack, going into a shell and kicking the leather off the ball would have won them the game. Thats where a 10 with good game management skills would come in handy. Brock just doesn't have it.

Despite losing a few games they could have won i don't think i've ever seen any of their players, James aside, really affected by pressure. A bit of luck and a flyhalf who exerts more control and history would be different.

For the record, Toulon played their part today. It shouldn't just be assumed that Clermont had another score in them.

neilmulvey

they choked big time, and Skrela in particular is an even bigger choker then Brock James. Its a pity because they have a fantastic group of players and they are let down by having out-halves with absolutely no balls.

If O'Gara or Sexton were on the pitch for Clermont in the last few minutes they wouldnt have touched the ball until it was passed to them for the drop goal. When he did get the ball he wasnt even ready for the pass.

When the game broke up in the end they tried to run around Toulon instead of trying to set up another drop goal attempt, obviously because the rest of the players knew their out-half was a choker.

I was impressed by some of the Toulon interviews after the game. Wilkinson and Giteau I thought spoke very well and in general I thought they looked like a group more interested in winning then in money which was always a big criticism of them.

Was hoping Clermont would win because the games with Leinster in the last few years have been really entertaining.

RuggieBear

keith16 wrote: »

To be fair, if anyone who hasn't seen the game / heard the result comes onto the Rugby forum before watching the game, they deserve to have it spoiled.

rugby thread titles appear on the main boards page too...that's the main issue

Woody1997

Leinster, Toulouse or Munster would never have lost that match from the position clermont were in. They had Toulon on the ropes and made stupid decisions throughout the second half

CoDy1

Chokers is harsh but the truth remains that they are still the best team to have never won the HC.

Have they never heard of drop goals?

Besides the block down, they had so much possession to set more up it was criminal.

toomevara

CoDy1 wrote: »

Have they never heard of drop goals?

+1. Chokers, not chokers, whatever. Professional rugby is a feckin' harsh mistress. Nobody has a god-given right to turn up and win on any day especially facing a talented, well-skippered team like Toulon.

But Clermont definitely lacked composure yesterday, at key points. That's ultimately what cost them the match as there was really nothing between the teams on the pitch. They could just as easily have won that match as lost it and there'll be a few heads scratched in perplexity at the Clermont camp today, no doubt.

totallegend

CoDy1 wrote: »

Chokers is harsh but the truth remains that they are still the best team to have never won the HC.

Have they never heard of drop goals?

Besides the block down, they had so much possession to set more up it was criminal.

I'll have to watch it back but the big screen seemed to show a close up of Cotter shouting "drop, drop" just before he brought Skrela on, but the players didn't seem to get the memo. They badly needed Parra on the pitch at that stage.

rrpc

Woody1997 wrote: »

Leinster, Toulouse or Munster would never have lost that match from the position clermont were in. They had Toulon on the ropes and made stupid decisions throughout the second half

This is the crux of it for me. I couldn't fathom why they took Rougerie and Parra off either as the on-field leadership left with them. Aside from drop goal opportunities, there were plenty of other situations that could have been turned into scores had they kept their composure, but failed. IIRC, they had three lineouts in or near the Toulon 22 in the last 10-12 minutes that a team with a bit of composure could have converted into at least one score. The comparison with Munster and Leinster is valid because they've both been in those sorts of games before and seemed to relish the pressure whereas Clermont just wilted and turned into headless chickens.

awec

totallegend wrote: »

I'll have to watch it back but the big screen seemed to show a close up of Cotter shouting "drop, drop" just before he brought Skrela on, but the players didn't seem to get the memo. They badly needed Parra on the pitch at that stage.

yea he wasn't happy they didn't go for the drop. Commentators mentioned it.

CGD

rrpc wrote: »

This is the crux of it for me. I couldn't fathom why they took Rougerie and Parra off either as the on-field leadership left with them. Aside from drop goal opportunities, there were plenty of other situations that could have been turned into scores had they kept their composure, but failed. IIRC, they had three lineouts in or near the Toulon 22 in the last 10-12 minutes that a team with a bit of composure could have converted into at least one score. The comparison with Munster and Leinster is valid because they've both been in those sorts of games before and seemed to relish the pressure whereas Clermont just wilted and turned into headless chickens.

You have to say if wilkinson payed for Clermont they win, very telling tha Broc James was going into rucks and kept hitting them when he should have been in the pocket waiting to slot a drop goal but don't think he fancied it and Cotter knew it and pulled him, Criminal really with the talent that Clermont have that they didn't win that game. Senior players along with Cotter should be blamed. Clermont will live to regret not signing Sexton or some on of his stature and composure. Wilkinson, Sexton or O'Gara would have won that game for Clermont. They should have kept Joe but glad they didn't!!

Bogota

CGD wrote: »

You have to say if wilkinson payed for Clermont they win, very telling tha Broc James was going into rucks and kept hitting them when he should have been in the pocket waiting to slot a drop goal but don't think he fancied it and Cotter knew it and pulled him, Criminal really with the talent that Clermont have that they didn't win that game. Senior players along with Cotter should be blamed. Clermont will live to regret not signing Sexton or some on of his stature and composure. Wilkinson, Sexton or O'Gara would have won that game for Clermont. They should have kept Joe but glad they didn't!!

Clermont with Sexton would be unstoppable.

sock puppet

How are Clermont shaping up for next year? A lot of their players are very old. Anyone major retiring?

Buer

sock puppet wrote: »

How are Clermont shaping up for next year? A lot of their players are very old. Anyone major retiring?

They have an extremely old squad. I don't know of any retirees but a lot of key players are mostly on the wrong side of 30. Hines is 37 this year, Cudmore is 35 this year, Vosloo has just turned 34, Bonnaire is 35 in September, Rougerie and Byrne both 33 over the summer, James almost 32. This side might, at a stretch, have one last serious crack at it but the tempo they play the game at is going to be harder and harder to achieve for them each year.

I can see some serious work in the market being done by them in the next year starting with a world class lock and flanker.

neilmulvey

they signed Mike Delany, ex all black out half. Not really a step in the right direction. I do think they have enough about them to have one more serious go at europe but unless they get an out half with balls they will probably choke again.

When Ireland won the slam in 2009, they went behind to Wales and when they had the line out they went through a set plan to engineer the drop. Clermont looked like they didnt have any such plan and it turned into individuals having a go at getting through a gap that wasnt there.

Rightwing

sock puppet wrote: »

How are Clermont shaping up for next year? A lot of their players are very old. Anyone major retiring?

They'll be as dangerous as ever, but you get the feeling time is quickly running out for the current team.

French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

They'll be as dangerous as ever, but you get the feeling time is quickly running out for the current team.

French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on.

Don't know how you can say that in such a matter of fact way. French teams are always going to be there or there abouts but there's nothing to suggest they are going to dominate the competition

It didn't happen in the years after the last all french final and it won't happen in the years preceding this

For example, had Leinster gotten a bonus point against Exeter and gotten back to full strength I think we'd be celebrating 3 in a row now and there wouldn't be any talk of French dominance

P_1

If they don't have a sports psychologist on the books perhaps it might be time for them to get one.

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

Don't know how you can say that in such a matter of fact way. French teams are always going to be there or there abouts but there's nothing to suggest they are going to dominate the competition

It didn't happen in the years after the last all french final and it won't happen in the years preceding this

For example, had Leinster gotten a bonus point against Exeter and gotten back to full strength I think we'd be celebrating 3 in a row now and there wouldn't be any talk of French dominance

But they didn't, so it's always best just stick to the facts.

jamiedav2011

Rightwing wrote: »

But they didn't, so it's always best just stick to the facts.

Ah, like the 'fact' that French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on?! Riiight.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

But they didn't, so it's always best just stick to the facts.

It's called speculation, and it's completely relevant to what you said. imo Leinster are still the best side in Europe, and if they had been a bit more lucky with injuries they'd have gone on to win a third HC this year

Which flies directly in the face of your theory that there's a period of French dominance ahead

Rightwing

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Ah, like the 'fact' that French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on?! Riiight.

Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.

In what sense? Leinster look just as strong at the end of this year as they did this time last year while both Munster and Ulster have improved

The opposite is true if anything

jamiedav2011

Rightwing wrote: »

Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.

It is indeed, and what you said was speculation, just like what trouttrout posted.

So looks like you're not really sticking to the facts then eh?!

Swan Curry

Rightwing wrote: »

Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.

I don't think the future's ever looked brighter for the provinces tbh.

Rightwing

trouttrout wrote: »

In what sense? Leinster look just as strong at the end of this year as they did this time last year while both Munster and Ulster have improved

The opposite is true if anything

Nah, the more knowledgeable posters realise French clubs are just getting stronger and stronger, buying who they want, when they want.

trouttrout

Rightwing wrote: »

Nah, the more knowledgeable posters realise French clubs are just getting stronger and stronger, buying who they want, when they want.

Ah sorry, I'll defer to the more knowledgeable poster. Good day sir