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Clermont Auvergne...

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24

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    #32
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    CoDy1 wrote: »
    Chokers is harsh but the truth remains that they are still the best team to have never won the HC.

    Have they never heard of drop goals?

    Besides the block down, they had so much possession to set more up it was criminal.

    I'll have to watch it back but the big screen seemed to show a close up of Cotter shouting "drop, drop" just before he brought Skrela on, but the players didn't seem to get the memo. They badly needed Parra on the pitch at that stage.


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    #33
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Woody1997 wrote: »
    Leinster, Toulouse or Munster would never have lost that match from the position clermont were in. They had Toulon on the ropes and made stupid decisions throughout the second half
    This is the crux of it for me. I couldn't fathom why they took Rougerie and Parra off either as the on-field leadership left with them. Aside from drop goal opportunities, there were plenty of other situations that could have been turned into scores had they kept their composure, but failed. IIRC, they had three lineouts in or near the Toulon 22 in the last 10-12 minutes that a team with a bit of composure could have converted into at least one score. The comparison with Munster and Leinster is valid because they've both been in those sorts of games before and seemed to relish the pressure whereas Clermont just wilted and turned into headless chickens.


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    #34
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,451 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    totallegend wrote: »
    I'll have to watch it back but the big screen seemed to show a close up of Cotter shouting "drop, drop" just before he brought Skrela on, but the players didn't seem to get the memo. They badly needed Parra on the pitch at that stage.

    yea he wasn't happy they didn't go for the drop. Commentators mentioned it.


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    #35
    CGD
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭CGD


    rrpc wrote: »
    This is the crux of it for me. I couldn't fathom why they took Rougerie and Parra off either as the on-field leadership left with them. Aside from drop goal opportunities, there were plenty of other situations that could have been turned into scores had they kept their composure, but failed. IIRC, they had three lineouts in or near the Toulon 22 in the last 10-12 minutes that a team with a bit of composure could have converted into at least one score. The comparison with Munster and Leinster is valid because they've both been in those sorts of games before and seemed to relish the pressure whereas Clermont just wilted and turned into headless chickens.

    You have to say if wilkinson payed for Clermont they win, very telling tha Broc James was going into rucks and kept hitting them when he should have been in the pocket waiting to slot a drop goal but don't think he fancied it and Cotter knew it and pulled him, Criminal really with the talent that Clermont have that they didn't win that game. Senior players along with Cotter should be blamed. Clermont will live to regret not signing Sexton or some on of his stature and composure. Wilkinson, Sexton or O'Gara would have won that game for Clermont. They should have kept Joe but glad they didn't!!


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    #36
    Bogota
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 537 ✭✭✭Bogota


    CGD wrote: »
    You have to say if wilkinson payed for Clermont they win, very telling tha Broc James was going into rucks and kept hitting them when he should have been in the pocket waiting to slot a drop goal but don't think he fancied it and Cotter knew it and pulled him, Criminal really with the talent that Clermont have that they didn't win that game. Senior players along with Cotter should be blamed. Clermont will live to regret not signing Sexton or some on of his stature and composure. Wilkinson, Sexton or O'Gara would have won that game for Clermont. They should have kept Joe but glad they didn't!!

    Clermont with Sexton would be unstoppable.


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    #37
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    How are Clermont shaping up for next year? A lot of their players are very old. Anyone major retiring?


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    #38
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,188 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    sock puppet wrote: »
    How are Clermont shaping up for next year? A lot of their players are very old. Anyone major retiring?

    They have an extremely old squad. I don't know of any retirees but a lot of key players are mostly on the wrong side of 30. Hines is 37 this year, Cudmore is 35 this year, Vosloo has just turned 34, Bonnaire is 35 in September, Rougerie and Byrne both 33 over the summer, James almost 32. This side might, at a stretch, have one last serious crack at it but the tempo they play the game at is going to be harder and harder to achieve for them each year.

    I can see some serious work in the market being done by them in the next year starting with a world class lock and flanker.


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    #39
    neilmulvey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 577 ✭✭✭neilmulvey


    they signed Mike Delany, ex all black out half. Not really a step in the right direction. I do think they have enough about them to have one more serious go at europe but unless they get an out half with balls they will probably choke again.

    When Ireland won the slam in 2009, they went behind to Wales and when they had the line out they went through a set plan to engineer the drop. Clermont looked like they didnt have any such plan and it turned into individuals having a go at getting through a gap that wasnt there.


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    #40
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    sock puppet wrote: »
    How are Clermont shaping up for next year? A lot of their players are very old. Anyone major retiring?

    They'll be as dangerous as ever, but you get the feeling time is quickly running out for the current team.

    French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on.


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    #41
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Rightwing wrote: »
    They'll be as dangerous as ever, but you get the feeling time is quickly running out for the current team.

    French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on.

    Don't know how you can say that in such a matter of fact way. French teams are always going to be there or there abouts but there's nothing to suggest they are going to dominate the competition

    It didn't happen in the years after the last all french final and it won't happen in the years preceding this

    For example, had Leinster gotten a bonus point against Exeter and gotten back to full strength I think we'd be celebrating 3 in a row now and there wouldn't be any talk of French dominance


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    #42
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    If they don't have a sports psychologist on the books perhaps it might be time for them to get one.


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    #43
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    trouttrout wrote: »
    Don't know how you can say that in such a matter of fact way. French teams are always going to be there or there abouts but there's nothing to suggest they are going to dominate the competition

    It didn't happen in the years after the last all french final and it won't happen in the years preceding this

    For example, had Leinster gotten a bonus point against Exeter and gotten back to full strength I think we'd be celebrating 3 in a row now and there wouldn't be any talk of French dominance

    But they didn't, so it's always best just stick to the facts.


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    #44
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Rightwing wrote: »
    But they didn't, so it's always best just stick to the facts.

    Ah, like the 'fact' that French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on?! Riiight.


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    #45
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Rightwing wrote: »
    But they didn't, so it's always best just stick to the facts.

    :confused:

    It's called speculation, and it's completely relevant to what you said. imo Leinster are still the best side in Europe, and if they had been a bit more lucky with injuries they'd have gone on to win a third HC this year

    Which flies directly in the face of your theory that there's a period of French dominance ahead


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    #46
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    jamiedav2011 wrote: »
    Ah, like the 'fact' that French teams will dominate the competition for quite some time from now on?! Riiight.

    Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
    The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.


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    #47
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
    The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.

    In what sense? Leinster look just as strong at the end of this year as they did this time last year while both Munster and Ulster have improved

    The opposite is true if anything


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    #48
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
    The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.

    It is indeed, and what you said was speculation, just like what trouttrout posted.

    So looks like you're not really sticking to the facts then eh?!


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    #49
    Swan Curry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Swan Curry


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Well Toulon have just won the H cup in their 2nd year in the competition. That's the fact.
    The Irish are fading, and there's only the French with the big budgets to take the baton.

    I don't think the future's ever looked brighter for the provinces tbh.


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    #50
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    trouttrout wrote: »
    In what sense? Leinster look just as strong at the end of this year as they did this time last year while both Munster and Ulster have improved

    The opposite is true if anything

    Nah, the more knowledgeable posters realise French clubs are just getting stronger and stronger, buying who they want, when they want.


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    #51
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Nah, the more knowledgeable posters realise French clubs are just getting stronger and stronger, buying who they want, when they want.

    Ah sorry, I'll defer to the more knowledgeable poster. Good day sir


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    #52
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Swan Curry wrote: »
    I don't think the future's ever looked brighter for the provinces tbh.

    Hopefully. the competition needs the Irish. Not even a sell out yesterday in a small ground.


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    #53
    Heroditas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,445 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Hopefully. the competition needs the Irish. Not even a sell out yesterday in a small ground.


    The final was a sell-out.


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    #54
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,188 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Nah, the more knowledgeable posters realise French clubs are just getting stronger and stronger, buying who they want, when they want.

    They are getting stronger and stronger but that level of depth and spending power only has a limited impact on the HEC's destination. It's a tournament that is geared towards getting a decent draw in the pool and then winning 3 games with the home/away draw having a huge impact also. It's not a season long tournament. The spending power of the French sides is largely offset by how the Irish provinces gear their season.

    Given that the contending French sides will be first seeds next season, alongside the Irish provinces, anything can happen at all. In truth, there's nothing to suggest the Irish provinces don't have as good a chance as any other first seed next season.


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    #55
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    With Munster, Ulster and Leinster all in Tier One next year, they'll do fine. I think all the Tier One sides, bar the side that draws Racing, will be comfortable favourites to get out of their pool.

    I don't buy this State of the Nation idea that the French will dominate. They have stronger squads so in a league context they might dominate but it's very hit and miss in a cup situation. Also only 3 French sides out of 7 qualified this season for the Heineken Cup knockouts (Toulon, Montpellier, Clermont), that's hardly domination?


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    #56
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,188 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Rightwing wrote: »
    They'll be as dangerous as ever, but you get the feeling time is quickly running out for the current team.

    Bordering on an oxymoron but I doubt they'll be as strong as ever. 4 of their pack have another year of rugby behind them in their mid thirties. No player plays continually at that level and fails to slow down when they're 34 - 37 years old especially when in France where the season goes as long as it does.


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    #57
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Toulon's squad is pretty old as well. Nobody in their starting pack on Saturday was under 31 years old, with the majority 33 or over. Wilkinson will retire at the end of next season as well.


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    #58
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,188 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Toulon's squad is pretty old as well. Nobody in their starting pack on Saturday was under 31 years old, with the majority 33 or over. Wilkinson will retire at the end of next season as well.

    Very true and I think it will have a serious impact on their ability to deliver. They've based a game plan around the type of rugby that suits Wilkinson. However, Toulon have always been more comfortable and eager slapping open the cheque book which won't really affect their continuity whilst Clermont seem to have relied at least a bit on building a core of a side over a number of seasons. That core is coming to its end and I don't see similar players coming through.


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    #59
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Buer wrote: »
    Bordering on an oxymoron but I doubt they'll be as strong as ever. 4 of their pack have another year of rugby behind them in their mid thirties. No player plays continually at that level and fails to slow down when they're 34 - 37 years old especially when in France where the season goes as long as it does.

    I agree with that, but no one will want to draw them either.


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    #60
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Heroditas wrote: »
    The final was a sell-out.

    Careful now, we only deal in "facts" with rightwing!


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    #61
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Nah, the more knowledgeable posters realise French clubs are just getting stronger and stronger, buying who they want, when they want.

    They've been doing that for years. With the JIFF rules set to increase, they won't be able to to the same degree in future seasons. The French national team is suffering and eventually they'll get their way to restrict the bulk purchasing of foreigners. With is happening already is French clubs are signing Pacific Islanders at 18 so they can qualify as a French produced player (Noa Nakitaci at Clermont or Virimi Vakatawa at Racing are two examples). However they are so many talented foreign youngsters that will be available to do this.

    Fact: The top three Irish provinces are in Tier One and will avoid Toulon, Toulouse and Clermont in the group stages.

    So all three provinces will have a very good chance of qualifying. After that it is hit and miss and will depend on home quarter-finals. I'd give any of the Irish provinces a good chance against any French side at home. I wouldn't fancy Castres to make an impact next year, particularly if they lose Kockott which is almost certain.


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