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Shatter insists Wallace has no credibility on penalty points

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    #242
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    These leaks from sources within AGS are extremely worrying.

    Lets not be overly distracted by the fact that at present they are confined to political "personalities" involved in a spat.

    Sorry to say AGS looking very unprofessional lately.


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    #243
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Going Forward wrote: »
    These leaks from sources within AGS are extremely worrying.

    Shatter didn't exactly help the situation by releasing information into the public domain which was given to him by the Commissioner in a confidential briefing. When the Minister of Justice is doing that, then it makes it that bit more acceptable for others to do the same.

    The Minister has done serious damage as a result of his actions on Prime Time last week. Even today he was not in a position to condemn Mattie McGrath for releasing the information in the manner that he did, as he himself had done the same to Mick Wallace. His position is compromised and accordingly he should resign. He is undermining the Department of Justice and Equality.


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    #244
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Shatter didn't exactly help the situation by releasing information into the public domain which was given to him by the Commissioner in a confidential briefing. When the Minister of Justice is doing that, then it makes it that bit more acceptable for others to do the same.
    Only if some idiot is an absolute sheep and cannot help but imitate the Minister.

    The Minister has an ethical responsibility to avoid impropriety in office, and a legal responsibility to act within the confines of the law. He doesn't have an obligation to babysit those who might imitate his wrongdoing.


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    #245
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,831 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    If one was to take the political aspect out of the equation, and I'm not saying we should, Shatters actions are deeply unethical on a professional level.

    Imagine two employees going for one position within a company (just like looking for re-election). Now one of these employees happens to be friends with a high level garda and a conversation between the two leads to private information about the other employee being revealed.

    This information is then used by the employee to sully the name of the other employee in front of senior management (the electorit) who have the power to decide who gets the position.

    Now in any other profession, apart from political it would seem, this would lead to disciplinary action being taken against the employee for acting in a completely unethical manner and would in my mind be a sackable offense.

    That's before we even get in to any legal ramifacations of these actions.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #246
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    The Minister has an ethical responsibility to avoid impropriety in office, and a legal responsibility to act within the confines of the law. He doesn't have an obligation to babysit those who might imitate his wrongdoing.

    Do you agree that the Minister failed to act in an ethical and professional manner, and accordingly breached the bond of trust between himself and the Garda Commissioner by releasing the confidential information in the manner that he did? That he essentially abused his office by using sensitive information, that he came across over the course of his work as Minister, to undermine a political opponent?


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    #247
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Do you agree that the Minister failed to act in an ethical and professional manner, and accordingly breached the bond of trust between himself and the Garda Commissioner by releasing the confidential information in the manner that he did?
    No that's more nonsense.

    The Minister did not "breach the bond of trust" between the Garda Commissioner and the Minister - it is important that a Minister, as the superior office holder, should have discretion when handling information passed to him from the Garda Commissioner as a general rule. There is no equality between the Commissioner and the Minister, and the Minister does not appear to owe the Commissioner's submissions any confidentiality.

    The clear unethical and unprofessional behaviour of the Minister came in releasing information which is confidential (i.e. protected under the Data Protection Acts and generally held to be private), in a political debate to undermine his opposition. This is so regardless of where the information came from.

    The Minister was wrong in his behaviour. He has behaved outrageously badly.

    But some posters don't seem to understand why the Minister was wrong, and are descending all sorts of ridiculous, convoluted pathways to describe his wrongness. There is no case to answer for "breaching the bond of trust" between the Commissioner and the Minister, there is no case to answer for the danger of imitation as you seem to believe; the reasons why the Minister was wrong to act in the way he did are incredibly simple.


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    #248
    Kosseegan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 987 ✭✭✭Kosseegan


    copacetic wrote: »
    No, the difference is that we know whether she had or not because she was (rightly) handcuffed, brought to station and tested and we know the results.

    She was not rightly handcuffed. She was no threat to the arresting members.


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    #249
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    Kosseegan wrote: »
    She was not rightly handcuffed. She was no threat to the arresting members.

    How exactly do you judge that?


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    #250
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    In fairness it wouldn't hurt to have updated, published guidelines on the use of handcuffs.

    Conor Lally, who I would consider a responsible journalist, describes the use of handcuffs in such the case of women "exceptional", and cites Gardaí who were "surprised" at the use of handcuffs in Daly's case.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/use-of-handcuffs-to-detain-any-woman-exceptional-1.1250877


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    #251
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The difference is that Clare Daly HAD drink taken - admittedly she was under the limit.

    Wasn't she driving unusual
    aswell


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    #252
    Weevil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 358 ✭✭Weevil


    donegal11 wrote: »
    Wasn't she driving unusual
    aswell

    She took a wrong turn at a badly sign-posted junction.


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    #253
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    In my opinion it's not only Shatter who's wrong here. The information should never have reached the Garda commissioner, unless it's somehow implies (highly unlikely to virtually impossible) that he is told about every single random incident in which someone is pulled over and not cited.

    The fact that this information reached him proves if nothing else that citizens are not all treated equally, and that in and of itself is a problem. Had Wallace not been in public life the commissioner would probably never have even heard of the incident. If I was pulled over and then let go I highly doubt he'd hear about it. All citizens should be treated in the exact same manner regardless of their social position in society, and that includes what happens to information about them after it is received.

    This entire situation absolutely reeks, and raises a lot of very uncomfortable question about how our country is being run. The mere fact that Shatter wouldn't have heard about this if it was some random office worker from Kerry is an example of evidence that we do not live in an egalitarian democracy, and I for one find that appalling.


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    #254
    mikehammer67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 699 ✭✭✭mikehammer67


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    In my opinion it's not only Shatter who's wrong here. The information should never have reached the Garda commissioner, unless it's somehow implies (highly unlikely to virtually impossible) that he is told about every single random incident in which someone is pulled over and not cited.

    The fact that this information reached him proves if nothing else that citizens are not all treated equally, and that in and of itself is a problem. Had Wallace not been in public life the commissioner would probably never have even heard of the incident. If I was pulled over and then let go I highly doubt he'd hear about it. All citizens should be treated in the exact same manner regardless of their social position in society, and that includes what happens to information about them after it is received.

    This entire situation absolutely reeks, and raises a lot of very uncomfortable question about how our country is being run. The mere fact that Shatter wouldn't have heard about this if it was some random office worker from Kerry is an example of evidence that we do not live in an egalitarian democracy, and I for one find that appalling.

    haven't you heard like................................................................

    or you just found out today about the way things work in this country?


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    #255
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    I'd say it's open season on shatter in our world class Sunday newspapers tomorrow


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    #256
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Does Callanan not have questions to answer on why he needed to talk to the minister about an incident that ocurred at traffic lights,window to window or is deemed as important than threats of terrorism cell units,violent roving gangs touring the country without fear of apprehension,Gardai being murdered and attacked on the street,Gardai morale gone out the window etc etc.

    I would just like to know how this conversation came about and fully explained by the commisioner what the reason was for it?


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    #257
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    mikehammer67 wrote: »
    haven't you heard like................................................................

    or you just found out today about the way things work in this country?

    I already know how it works, it's just handy to have such an obvious example of it to prove the point. It absolutely shouldn't be this way, and this is a perfect opportunity to try and force a little bit of change.


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    #258
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    tipptom wrote: »
    Does Callanan not have questions to answer on why he needed to talk to the minister about an incident that ocurred at traffic lights,window to window or is deemed as important than threats of terrorism cell units,violent roving gangs touring the country without fear of apprehension,Gardai being murdered and attacked on the street,Gardai morale gone out the window etc etc.

    I would just like to know how this conversation came about and fully explained by the commisioner what the reason was for it?

    Of course he has questions to answer. And who's responsible for asking him? The minister for justice.
    This is where the whole concept of separation of power completely falls apart in Ireland. It simply doesn't exist, and if it does, it doesn't exist to nearly the extent that it should

    The Garda Ombudsman can't even get involved in this case. Why? Because although this incident would be a breach of discipline for any rank and file Garda, the Garda Commissioner is exempt from following the rules the rest of the force has to follow, and is therefore immune to disciplinary action from the ombudsman in anything less than a potential crime, which this obviously isn't. Absolutely glaring gap in our system of oversight right there. Who's responsible for designing that system? Yep, you guessed it - the Minister for Justice.

    Etc etc etc. The entire thing is absolutely ring fenced to prevent anyone doing anything about it. :mad:


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    #259
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    The possible consequences of this sorry shambles is that because the file/report is 'missing' the Gardai or the Commissioner now potentially has the Minister by the short and curlies, if they so wanted.
    Not having a culture of accountability in governance here is a serious compromiser of proper politics.
    Once such an important minister has been compromised in any way he/she has to go.


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