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Shatter insists Wallace has no credibility on penalty points

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    #32
    Wildlife Actor
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Wildlife Actor


    While perhaps not as systematic, is this carry on not the same in substance as the phone tapping scandal that knocked Haughey? Using the gardai as a source of information to undermine political opposition.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_phone_tapping_scandal_%281983%29

    The most disturbing thing about it is that Shatter sees nothing wrong with it. That means he'd do it again.


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    #33
    jased10s
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭jased10s


    What the hell is going on with the government , be it LAB FF FG INDO'S. They seem to been nothing more than crooks who like to argue amongst themselves in public. People who call people out seem to have dodgy dealings themselves ( ming / wallace ). They pass major laws in the middle of the night ( bank bailout / debt deal ) , why they cant do it in normal working hours makes you think they are up to no good. Rather than fix their businesses they just want to jack the prices up to cover for the incompetence of the management and powerful unions ( think bus eireann / leo ) .

    Shatter seems like a self serving person who just cares about himself looking good while he destroys and alienates the garda.

    And all the while they blame the previous government for the actions they are taking - while counting down the hours until they get their golden pensions, which they can draw down well before they are 65 !. And also they renege on their election promises at the expense of the hard working public.

    I don't think any playwright could have come up with such a tragedy , it would be unbelievable at best but unfortunately it's true !!!

    And the real kick in the balls is their is not a party that offers a real alternative to this living nightmare we currently find ourselves living through.

    What is going on people ? Why do we put up with it ?


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    #34
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,729 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    jased10s wrote: »
    What is going on people ? Why do we put up with it ?
    Because until/unless it affects the average Irish person personally they don't want to know!

    You're talking about a country that admires the "cute hoor" and where despite FF mismanagement running the country into the ground, they're shaping back to be a serious contender/likely winner of the next general election. :rolleyes:

    Until/unless the Irish electorate starts taking their role in the process seriously, we'll never see the change this country so badly needs.

    It wouldn't surprise me at all if Shatter is using his good mate the Garda Commissioner to keep tabs on the opposition. After all, you're assuming an organisation as corrupt and incompetent as the Gardai to be professional when it's been shown time and again that they're anything but - an organisation where the good work that individuals do is overshadowed by the rest, and where whistle-blowers are gagged and ostracised by their supposed colleagues.

    I know I keep beating the same drum here but every week there seems to be one of our "leaders" involved in some dodgy-smelling mess and as usual there'll be no accountability on this occasion either. We really aren't fit to govern ourselves.


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    #35
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Neither Wallace or Shatter are fit to serve in Dail Eireann.
    The people deserve better.


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    #36
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,729 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Neither Wallace or Shatter are fit to serve in Dail Eireann.
    The people deserve better.

    The people are the ones who put them there.


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    #37
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    The people are the ones who put them there.

    Where I live I can't vote for either.
    Can't see either being elected next time.


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    #38
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    20Cent wrote: »
    Shatter is in the wrong here, a minister for justice using Garda information for political gain is very inappropriate whoever he is using it against.
    No fan of Wallace actually think he should have been kicked out of the Dail but Shatter is well out of order in this situation.

    One abuse of power for another. Fcuk the pair of them out.


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    #39
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    Fred Cohen wrote: »
    Minister Shatter said

    So who advised him of this? It could have come from two sources

    1. Mr Wallace. Very unlikely.

    or

    2. An Garda Siochána. From which I can see 3 sources

    2.1. The Garda who stopped him. How often do ordinary members of AGS get to have a chat and gossip with the Minister for Justice about who they saw driving while on a mobile phone. As well as that, given the antipathy that the Minister is held in by the ordinary member on the street I find this equally unlikely. Also why would they risk their job by disclosing confidential information.

    2.2. The stop was logged somewhere and given to the minister. This opens up a whole new can of worms such as why was it logged, who gave him the file, what else is in the file, are their files on other politicians, what is the purpose of these files, etc,etc,etc. i.e. Political policing.

    2.3. The Guard who stopped him said it to someone else who told the Minister. Given that (imho) most Guards are more likely to describe their sexual fetish with ostriches rather than discuss their days work with a civilian, I also find this unlikely and as a solicitor I'm sure he knows not to rely on hearsay.

    You've actually left one out. The Garda who stopped him most likely was not alone and mentioned it at the station. So more than one Garda would have known about it.


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    #40
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    where whistle-blowers are gagged and ostracised by their supposed colleagues.

    What exactly makes the whistle blower any different to the person who gave the information to Shatter? They both released personal information to politicians.


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    #41
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,729 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    SB2013 wrote: »
    What exactly makes the whistle blower any different to the person who gave the information to Shatter? They both released personal information to politicians.

    That should be obvious really..

    Whistle-blower exposing corruption
    Informant feeding it


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    #42
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    That should be obvious really..

    Whistle-blower exposing corruption
    Informant feeding it

    You are assuming the whistle blower had noble motivations and that Daly and her musketeers weren't political point scoring. Some fairly major assumptions.


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    #43
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Is what Shatter did any more serious than what Wallace did re: tax evasion? Shatter had a go at Wallace not because he was in opposition, not because he got penalty points removed/avoided - but because he was taking the moral high ground and having a go at the state and the Gardai for doing so for others and said it was wrong when he was no different than those he bemoaned in the Dail and in the Media. That's why - no other reason.

    Is it of public importance? Well, I think so. Should it have been revealed the way it did? No, I don't think so. Was it highly inappropriate? Absolutely. Resigning matter? Not as far as Irish politics goes, no. If Ming & Wallace to name just two out of many 'rouges' in the Dail can retain their seat after inappropriate behaviour for a member of parliament - than Shatter should stay. Otherwise its just more political tit-for-tat.

    It does raise the question / point - it appears Irish people don't seem to take much notice of this type of antics and they will get behind 'their man' in each election anyway!


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    #44
    M three
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭M three


    Sully wrote: »
    Is what Shatter did any more serious than what Wallace did re: tax evasion? Shatter had a go at Wallace not because he was in opposition, not because he got penalty points removed/avoided - but because he was taking the moral high ground and having a go at the state and the Gardai for doing so for others and said it was wrong when he was no different than those he bemoaned in the Dail and in the Media. That's why - no other reason.

    Is it of public importance? Well, I think so. Should it have been revealed the way it did? No, I don't think so. Was it highly inappropriate? Absolutely. Resigning matter? Not as far as Irish politics goes, no. If Ming & Wallace to name just two out of many 'rouges' in the Dail can retain their seat after inappropriate behaviour for a member of parliament - than Shatter should stay. Otherwise its just more political tit-for-tat.

    It does raise the question / point - it appears Irish people don't seem to take much notice of this type of antics and they will get behind 'their man' in each election anyway!

    Jesus. You're doing a nice job there of trying to absolve shatter of any wrongdoing.
    Also the fact that mick wallace has previous issues seems to make what shatter did ok in your book, you're conveniently forgetting that shatter is the minister for justice, and should have higher standards than "rogues".

    But he doesnt does he, he's a nasty corrupt piece of work.


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    #45
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    SB2013 wrote: »
    You are assuming the whistle blower had noble motivations and that Daly and her musketeers weren't political point scoring. Some fairly major assumptions.

    Why does the motivations of the whistleblower even matter?
    If someone blows the whistle on something which is in the public interest then their motivation for doing so is irrelevant.


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    #46
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    20Cent wrote: »
    Heard on the radio that questions have been tabled to answer that, either way not looking good for Shatter.

    You reckon? I can almost see the scenario now. FF table the question, FG evade a direct answer and counter with phone tapping, moving on to Ahern, Burke, Haughey. SF take up the baton to be met with Enniskillen, the Disappeared etc. the chamber dissolves into uproar, the Ceann Comhairle goes righteously apopleptic and suspends proceedings and all concerned retire to the Dail bar to recover.
    Such are the depths of murk and gangsterism in Irish politics that no party is clean enough to point the finger or sustain an accusation in a case like this, in fact there are few TDs who are squeaky clean, anywhere in the Dail.
    Unless the source of the information is disclosed, in which case both parties should be disciplined, I predict Shatter will remain as Minister for Justice for the duration of this Parliament.


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    #47
    Duiske
    Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Duiske


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    One abuse of power for another. Fcuk the pair of them out.

    Not a huge fan of Wallace myself, but as an opposition TD i can't see how he has much more power than you or I, and of the liitle power he has, how exactly did he abuse it in this case ?


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    #48
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    There is something just nor right about Alan Shatter,he will reveal himself someday Star Trek style morphing back in to the alien that he really is.


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    #49
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Shatter still has not revealed as to how he came in possession of this confidential information, which he used for political purposes.

    One suspects that on Thursday, after having heard who was going to be on the Prime Time panel with him, he made a few phone calls to find some information which he could use against Wallace. The question is, did he use his position as Minister to pressure individuals to inappropriately access such information?

    This story is growing legs, it really does look like Shatter is in a spot of bother.


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    #50
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    M three wrote: »
    Jesus. You're doing a nice job there of trying to absolve shatter of any wrongdoing.
    Also the fact that mick wallace has previous issues seems to make what shatter did ok in your book, you're conveniently forgetting that shatter is the minister for justice, and should have higher standards than "rogues".

    But he doesnt does he, he's a nasty corrupt piece of work.

    There is no absolving shatter of any wrongdoing. He was wrong. Simple.

    I see what Shatter was getting at but the Ming issue was far more serious and hypocritical than a TD being given a informal warning for being on the mobile. It shows Gardai are not all running around handing out fines left right and center without consideration. Wallace was asked nicely to stop, and the Guards went on their way. Its not a big deal but Shatter is trying to suggest it is.

    He shouldn't have released the information and the way he released it was a disgrace.


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    #51
    Trotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭Trotter


    This has nothing whatsoever to do with the actions of Wallace, Flanagan, or anyone else who we all have different opinions on. I'm no fan of either.

    Misuse of information by a minister is a serious concern, regardless of who he is discussing and their background.

    Reading the articles today online etc, I'm trying to give Shatter the benefit of the doubt but no matter if he has the info legitimately I think it was bad form to use it in the way he did.

    I do think that the title of this thread though is a bit FG'ish. It implies that its Wallace at fault does it not?


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    #52
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Trotter wrote: »
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with the actions of Wallace, Flanagan, or anyone else who we all have different opinions on. I'm no fan of either.

    Misuse of information by a minister is a serious concern, regardless of who he is discussing and their background.

    The minister of justice, at that.


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    #53
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,566 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Shatter still has not revealed as to how he came in possession of this confidential information, which he used for political purposes.

    One suspects that on Thursday, after having heard who was going to be on the Prime Time panel with him, he made a few phone calls to find some information which he could use against Wallace. The question is, did he use his position as Minister to pressure individuals to inappropriately access such information?

    This story is growing legs, it really does look like Shatter is in a spot of bother.

    Bruton has come out now and said its all ok because it was in the 'public interest'.

    They appear to be confusing themselves with journalists, next we will be hearing they need to protect their sources.

    I'm guessing they all know it was a serious abuse of the office of the Minister of Justice and will try to obfuscate it by keeping up the comparison to Wallaces actions.

    i.e Wallace is a dodgy character, therefore we can do whatever we want to 'expose' him as its in the 'public interest'. Which again is the argument a journalist could make not a Minister of the State. They know this well, which is why normally they would leak this to the media for them to print, not say it themselves live on TV.

    Shatter really needs to rewatch Yes Minister for the theory of being a politician.


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    #54
    TINA1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭TINA1984


    Sully wrote: »

    I see what Shatter was getting at but the Ming issue was far more serious and hypocritical than a TD being given a informal warning for being on the mobile.

    Ha! Nice try, but a MoJ doing what Shatter has done is far, far more serious then what Ming has done. It seems the latest FG talking points are to repeatedly mention Ming & Walalce's indiscretions where possible in order to deflect from their boy.
    SB2013 wrote: »
    What exactly makes the whistle blower any different to the person who gave the information to Shatter? They both released personal information to politicians.

    Oh dear...


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    #55
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    copacetic wrote: »
    Bruton has come out now and said its all ok because it was in the 'public interest'.

    In my experience, when Government Ministers do something "in the public interest", it can usually be interpreted as "in the Government's interest".
    Look around you, at the state of country and tell me when is the the last time a Government of any hue did anything that the public might consider as being in the public interest.


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    #56
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    20Cent wrote: »
    Why does the motivations of the whistleblower even matter?
    If someone blows the whistle on something which is in the public interest then their motivation for doing so is irrelevant.

    So again i ask, why is it bad to release information about Wallace and Flanagan and their benefiting from Garda discretion but it's good to release information about a sports or tv personality?


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    #57
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't get it.

    What I don't get is that these TD's (Wallace, Ming, Daly and co.) want the waiving of penalty points stopped. That they have themselves benefited from the waive in the past seems to discredit them.

    The waiving of penalty points is a scandal and fair play to them for bringing it to national attention. It should be stopped. Why should their campaign stop purely because they took advantage while it was happening?

    I'm sure if the halting of these waivers happened, they wouldn't try it.
    I think what happened here is what can happen to any of us, a person was stopped driving with a phone in his hand, the cop probably gave him a chance to speak, decided to let him off with a warning...CASE CLOSED..the person is 100% in the clear...he didn't "get off" anything as there was nothing to "get off". What happened next is akin to local gossip. The garda possibly mentioned to someone that "wallace has some neck givng out about us and I after letting him off a phone incident"...this gets back to shatter who mentions it on TV...
    I think it's all very sinister


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    #58
    M three
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭M three


    SB2013 wrote: »
    So again i ask, why is it bad to release information about Wallace and Flanagan and their benefiting from Garda discretion but it's good to release information about a sports or tv personality?

    But shatter didnt release any info about a tv or sports personality. he released info about wallace, during a tv debate in an attempt to smear and silence him.

    Do you think what shatter did was ok? Bear in mind he's the minister for justice and wallace is just a td.


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    #59
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Trotter wrote: »
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with the actions of Wallace, Flanagan, or anyone else who we all have different opinions on. I'm no fan of either.

    Misuse of information by a minister is a serious concern, regardless of who he is discussing and their background.

    Reading the articles today online etc, I'm trying to give Shatter the benefit of the doubt but no matter if he has the info legitimately I think it was bad form to use it in the way he did.

    I do think that the title of this thread though is a bit FG'ish. It implies that its Wallace at fault does it not?

    It was clearly and undeniably so an attempt at showing Wallace was a hypocrite - i.e. this is why they insist its in the public's interest. That's why the Indo made a big deal about Ming and Daily. But it failed and back fired not just because it wasn't the point being made by this group of TDs but also purely because of the way in which the information was handled and released.

    A lot of questions to be answered but it looks like there is no easy way out of this mess that makes it all alright for Shatter.

    Sorry to disappoint, but the thread title wasn't mine, it was the one used in the article I linked in the OP. Of course its 'FGsh' - its what a FG Minister is saying.
    TINA1984 wrote: »
    Ha! Nice try, but a MoJ doing what Shatter has done is far, far more serious then what Ming has done. It seems the latest FG talking points are to repeatedly mention Ming & Walalce's indiscretions where possible in order to deflect from their boy.

    I never said it wasn't. I was trying to point out the idea behind releasing of the information - not defending him or suggesting its alright.


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    #60
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    SB2013 wrote: »
    So again i ask, why is it bad to release information about Wallace and Flanagan and their benefiting from Garda discretion but it's good to release information about a sports or tv personality?

    I missed the bit where Shatter named a sports or tv personality.
    Could you link it please.

    All I saw him name was a member of an opposing political party.


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    #61
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    M three wrote: »
    But shatter didnt release any info about a tv or sports personality. he released info about wallace, during a tv debate in an attempt to smear and silence him.

    Do you think what shatter did was ok? Bear in mind he's the minister for justice and wallace is just a td.
    mikom wrote: »
    I missed the bit where Shatter named a sports or tv personality.
    Could you link it please.

    All I saw him name was a member of an opposing political party.

    I'll try and simplify it so. Why is it ok for a politician to release confidential personal information on a sports or tv personality who has availed of Garda discretion like those that were named in the original scandal but it is not ok to release the same information on a politician as Shatter has just done?


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