ICPSA FITASC Membership Pulled

BaldSparrow

Hi All,
Just a note to all Irish FITASC shooters.
Official contact from FITASC

We inform you that the ICPSA has just been suspended from all its rights as Fitasc member until further notice. In the meantime, the shooters of Irish nationality are entitled to take part to Fitasc championships under Irish nationality but as “Fitasc guest”.

Barrelat75

Another major blow for the sport of clay shooting in Ireland.

"The ICPSA has just been suspended from all it's rights as Fitasc member until further notice".

This must be a cause of major embarassment for the shooters who were due to shoot in the Czech Republic next week.
Surely the time has now come for change at the top table in the organisation!!

Cavan duck buster

Surely is a bad day for clay shooters, any idea until this is revolved?

damanloox

Any idea why? Nothing on ICPSA pages unfortunately...

BaldSparrow

No all the information I have is what is stated above. Somehow I dont think the ICPSA will be posting that on their website.
If I find out any more Info Ill keep you updated

Sparks

Threads merged.

BaldSparrow

FITASC.jpg

Half-cocked

BaldSparrow wrote: »

Somehow I dont think the ICPSA will be posting that on their website.

Yes they have:

http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/50033-fitasc-2.html

Sparks

Half-cocked wrote: »

Yes they have:
http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/50033-fitasc-2.html

So this is down to the international governing bodies having a spat and nothing to do with the national governing bodies then?

BaldSparrow

Half-cocked wrote: »

Yes they have:

http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/50033-fitasc-2.html

I stand corrected. At least they post someting up for once

Half-cocked

Sparks wrote: »

So this is down to the international governing bodies having a spat and nothing to do with the national governing bodies then?

Who knows? It'll all come out in the wash I suppose.

bogmailer

Well regardless the CSI <snip> will milk this although it has nothing to do with the domestic shooting scene </snip>

hunter23

Another Dark day for Clay shooters?

raymo19

CSI had nothing to do with the ICPSA suspension from Fitasc nor do they concern themselves with such matters. If you want to apportion blame I can assure you it wont be hard to find. CSI members are only interested in shooting and want absolotely no association with the political and legal turmoil other shooting organisations thrive upon. Last Sunday 103 guns turned up and totally enjoyed their days shooting in Thurles shooting grounds. Circa 80 new members joined on the day and all from the Munster region. Please leave CSI out of this.

Raymo

damanloox

hunter23 wrote: »

Another Dark day for Clay shooters?

It certainly is a dark day for clay sports in Ireland - irrespective of any "political" association.
FITASC "articles of association" - however stupid it can be - are clear and forbid participation in any other organisation that "practice disciplines which belong to Fitasc). I don't see where ICPSA is to blame here...

raymo19

Fitasc is currently shot in two or three clubs over 50 targets by circa 25 ICPSA members. This is along way from 100 bird fitasc shoots held in Mill Hill & Walshestown with 120 guns upwards from all over the Island in attendance. One of those shoots in Mill Hill had 70 Traps on the course(incredible). George digweed was even in attendance. Hopefully the clubs will come together and buy out the right to hold Fitasc Shoots and create a new beginning for Fitasc, one we all can enjoy.

Raymo

Sparks

So you have a working association and you want to destroy it because...

raymo19

I can assure you I dont have any association there and dont think too many shooters would agree with the comment above. I just love shooting fitasc and would like to see Joe public shooters enjoying fitasc again.

Raymo

Sparks

So if I'm reading FITASC's letter right, joe public can already continue to shoot FITASC, nothing's changed. The international level's got its trousers in a twist, but that'll get sorted, these things always do and they're explicitly saying that no shooter will be inconvenienced in the meantime. But you're saying to leverage that to "buy out" the FITASC rights (as if that was possible) which means setting up a new association.

Seriously, have you ever looked at the rifle side of things? Do you really want to go down the road of having three dozen associations, most of which spend their time squabbling over nothing like nine-year-old siblings? Shotgun's fortunate in that everything's centralised in one place. Trying to disrupt that doesn't strike me as a good approach (and honestly, some of your suggestions thus far, like trying to shut ICPSA down and starting a new body to handle everything, seems to show that you don't know what you're talking about - if you did shut the ICPSA down, you'd lose olympic shotgun rights to the NTSA and you wouldn't be able to get them back according to ISSF rules; and the NTSA doesn't want any of that sandwich, thanks).

damanloox

I have to agree with Sparks - ICPSA (though far from ideal) is a solid association. Instead of destroying it I'd rather try to change it if really needed. There's too much politics in Irish shooting sports - and it doesn't help shooters at all.

raymo19

Sparks, I may not know all about shooting but here are a few facts I do know.

The Association could be insolvent within three years. Their auditors made that very clear at the AGM. Things have gotten worse for the association since that. 20 people turned up for a registered sporting shoot last weekend at a club in north county Dublin + suspension by Fitasc this week. The payment of Tribunal costs has yet to be agreed.

The National Executive and nobody else are responsible for the Associations now publicly written about impending failure. That’s stark reality Sparks and the sooner you take that on board the better for you.

Damanloox the majority of shooters tried to bring about change last year but we all know what happened there. It’s such a pity the people who promised their support to the change camp lost their balls and turned coat on the night. They have a lot to answer for and the association is welcome to their continued support.
The Majority of sporting shooters have moved on. One thing that a lot of shooters have commented on is the healing that has already started taking place within shooting.
Friendships have been renewed instead of hiding away in corners being afraid to be “seen” talking to certain shooters. The Leinster league (Original Real or whatever) was a resounding success for all involved. There will be at least 100 guns in Mill Hill next Sunday morning enjoying our sport (Over 14 Stands I hear). There was a cracking day in Thurles last Sunday. I for one am really looking forward to the season.

Lastly Sparks, I would say that if Joe Public/clubs started shooting Fitasc they would end up at the receiving end of Legal letters from the Association regardless of what Fitasc say.

Raymo

bogmailer

Raymo, Although I have been "placed" on the ICPSA side so to speak, I too am saddened by the split in clay shooting and would love to see a reuniting within the sport. But until people accept that an organisation must have rules and procedures, without which it will not be able to operate successfully in the long term, there will continue to be problems. In addition any such organisation needs someone strong to "rule" and while this will cause accusations of bias at times this is the price that needs to be paid to have a stable organisation. You will see these problems emerge within CSI in time as it is not possible to keep everyone happy all the time.

To continually blame a single individual for all the ills of any association is childish in the extreme and I for one refused to support people with little administrative experience and absolutely no plan other than to behead the association. I sat at a meeting where the majority agreed to call for a face to face with the association committee but when questioned from the floor about an agenda for this agreed meeting had not even thought that far ahead.

CHange takes time and need to happen at a slow pace and will never work with people having gut reactions to every development.

raymo19

I wonder who elected you to speak considering your earlier comment about CSI members. Firstly it totally agree with you in relation to rules and procedures being important to ensure the survival of any organisation. Unfortunately the opposite is also true in the case of that association.If the rules and regs are continually interpreted to back up only one persons side of the argument at all times then you will find that rules and regs can become totally detrimental to the continued survival of an organisation as is blatantly the case here.
I don't blame any one individual, I blame the national executiveves mismanagement ( non management) of the affairs of the association. Studies have shown that 95percent of corporate failures are the result of poor management at the top table. This is the case here and all the rules and regs won't change the fact.The total dis- respect shown by one of the employees to the company chairman at the AGM tipifies weak non existent management. Next months edition of shooters digest will be interesting on that front.

Change does indeed take time however that is not a luxury that is being afforded to that association presently. I suggest they do something radical and fast.
Please keep your derrogatory comments about Csi Members to yourself in future.

Raymo

Sparks

Raymo, if you think you can tell people who can and cannot talk about what on here, allow me to disabuse you of that notion before it causes a problem.

biddykelly

Well I have to say Raymo , I think you are wrong there? Is it not true that some CSI members are lobbying looking for the FITASC licence for Ireland? you obviously were not in Thurles last week as there were only 65 guns most of who were already CSI and a lot of them made long journeys to boost the numbers.
None of them were Paul Daniels so it was a good trick pulling 80 new members from the hat?
As the debate is about the ICPSA and FITASC and as you say this has nothing to do with CSI, why as a CSI head are you getting involved then? why are you so fascinated by an association you are not a member of?

raymo19

Great name welcome to boards. I only joined this thread because the self elected Icpsa spokesman called bog mailer made derogatory comments about Csi members earlier. I will try to firm up on the actual thurles shooting numbers later. It is suffice to say that if there were only 65 shooters only in thurles last Sunday that's 65 more shooters shooting Csi events than were shooting for any other organisation in Munster that day. It was surprised to see certain people signing up for Csi. Its a great pity Paul Daniels wasn't shooting sporting in north county Dublin last Sunday. I won't bother going there it's not funny.
It would be great if somebody bought out the fiasc shooting rights so we could all enjoy shooting it again. I can assure you that I have no fascination with that association however it's impossible nowadays to avoid the negative commentary about the association. It's everywhere. As I said earlier the majority of sporting shooters have moved on and couldn't care less about how they conduct their affairs. Perhaps they would do us all a favour and conduct their affairs in private and cease being the source of embarrassment to the rest of Irish Shooters.

Raymo 19

damanloox

This thread is becoming a political war I'm afraid (and I'm not surprised considering what has been happening over past few years...). I'm not on any side (I've been shooting both - ICPSA and CSI. I enjoyed both. I may not see high-level picture but I will repeat as a maniac - don't destroy. It will takes ages to rebuild... But that's just my humble opinion and you're welcome to ignore it completely

raymo19

I just checked the CSI website on the results page. I roughly counted 64 singular entries in the sporting competition. I counted at least 25 trap shooters that competed in that competition alone and didn't shoot the sporting competition. There were several new shooters/guests introduced to the sport on the day whom shot under day insurance. Most entrants in the Trap competition were new entrants to the CSI. About six existing members traveled down to support the event(Contrary to Biddys heresay). Therefore the majority of the scores in the sporting competition were from people who signed on the day. As I said earlier over a 100 guns enjoyed a great days shooting from nearly dawn to dusk. Circa 80 new members and most importantly a much needed boost for clay pigeon shooting in the Munster region. www.claysportsirl.ie

Raymo.

superlite

Leaving all the bickering aside and getting back to the issue, where I feel it's embarrassing for Irish international shooters not being able to compete on an equal status and as a guest, I for one could not feel the pride you should feel at an event, representing your country and would not attend.
While this is the case and unfair as it may seem I feel that the response of getting solicitors involved at an early stage is a bit aggressive.
I may be naive on these matters but are the executive not in a position to mediate with the fitasc executive to try and clear up any misunderstanding, or has this already happened and if there has been prior correspondence, why are we now at a stage involving a solicitor.

bogmailer

Hi Raymo,

It's me again. I'm afarid I am not a spokesperson for anyone, jus throwing in my tuppence worth. Last time I looked at Bunracht na hÉireann the free speech bit was still there.

What puzzles me somewhat is the constant reference to mismanagement within an organisation. What I don't see mentioned are specifics of this so-called mismanagement. Leaving aside "the incident" what exactly was amiss in the management of sporting shoots, formulation of a calendar, issuing of notices, posting of results, etc. Last year I had an enjoyable year shooting excellent sporting shoots at a variety of great grounds from a full calendar. I am not trying to be petulant here, but in all honesty no-one has been able to tell me exactly what the problem with sporting shooting was in the last 2 years or so..... or maybe I'm missing something, like maybe a power grab motivated by money and prestige.

Looking forward to your detailed post on the SPECIFIC instances of this mismanagement of which you speak. :-)

raymo19

You placed yourself on the Icpsa side so to speak, nobody else, you did. You are of course entitled to freespeech but insulting Csi members in that manner is just typical of the arrogance displayed by those in control of that association. (Perhaps you are).

I would be here for a week if I was to hi-light all the examples of mismanagement of that association but I will hi-light their biggest failure as being their inability/failure to manage the single full time employee of the association. We all remember the statement about the three ways things happen within the association My way, my way & my way. That display of arrogance was very closely followed by the "incident" I rest my case.

In case you were not aware of these websites have a real good look at them tomorrow morning and closely examine the results being posted for Ballinasloe yesterday and Mill Hill thismorning.www.claysportsirl.ie & www.claytargetevents.ie resp.

Shooters en mass have moved on. Barriers created by the association are being torn down as we speak. There is a real air of freshness returning to the shooting in general. People are talking and laughing again. I too have moved on and only got involved in this thread because you bogmailer for no reason atall decided to insult Csi shooters. I really have no further comment to make. I just want to enjoy my shooting as does everyone else. Cyber Wave !!!!!!!!.

Raymo 19

biddykelly

Thank you raymo I see the results that are on the site now. Sorry. I beter say sorry or I will get the same treatment as bogmailer for daring to speak out. That must be the biggest crowd Thurles had since they were put out of ICPSA six years ago. Just out of interest is one 100 birder equal to two 50 birders. And I looked at the names and there is a lot more than 6 made 100km trips to boost the numbers.

I see you did not answer my question. Is it true some CSI members are lobbying looking for the FITASC licence for Ireland? And as you are the (un)official spokesman here for csi you surely know or is a secret in the air of freshness blowing across you part of the sport.

Do you attack bogmailer because in your mind he said something about csi or is it for saying something positive on the ICPSA. So in your world you attack him for saying something about csi but it is ok for you to attack the ICPSA. An association you admit is not yours. Look up hypocrit in the dictionary.

The person who started the thread said in an earlier post that is now deleted (???) he is the secretary of a rival to the ICPSA. So his motives for starting this thread are???? If the majority has moved on and couldnt care less about the ICPSA like you say then why do a few of you spend so much time talking about the ICPSA?

I might have missed them but why are the mill hill results not on the csi site? Is there a split in the split already?

Bogmailer listed some of the positives of the ICPSA. We have loads of time here so why are you not listing all the faults in the ICPSA. Surely it is not too hard for you. Or are you stuck on one person and one incident.

It is sad that people will be making a trip this week and will not be allowed to represent their country. Some people are trying to make hay from this and shame on them. And I wonder has superlite ever attended one of these events or represented his country. If not then it is easy for him to say he would not attend?

Cass

To avoid having this thread edited, closed or deleted please leave the personal comments out of it.

Keep on topic, and on point. Any further insulting or personal comments will result in infractions, and deletions. If it persists the thread will be closed.

How it proceeds is now up to you.

biddykelly wrote: »

The person who started the thread said in an earlier post that is now deleted (???)

For clarification purposes.

There are no deleted posts in this thread, and the only post by the OP that was edited was the first/opening post which i edited to change the font of it. Not edit the content.

bogmailer

Well Raymo,

Your reply was pretty much as I expected. Just a general rant about a "that really bad man" who is "like, really bad" and not a single detail of a specific instance of where this "mismanagement" caused inconvenience to shooters actually shooting.

Face up to it - you are part of a putsch which is using the "Axis of Evil" tactic to stir up dissent within a well run organisation which enforces a set of rules in the interest of the general membership in order to nurture a sport in all areas not just in one club.

Raymo, unless I hear more detail and less "he's just like evil" I will remain uncinvinced.

Btw doncha think you might be ye might be swapping Hitler for Stalin......watch this space!!!!

Half-cocked

Yes, how about some concrete examples of 'mismanagement' please? Not liking somebody does not equal mismanagement. I remember all this going on before back around 2004/5 with all sorts of vague accusations of corruption and mismanagement being made, but no one could ever pinpoint any real examples of it.

superlite

biddykelly wrote: »

Thank you raymo I see the results that are on the site now. Sorry. I beter say sorry or I will get the same treatment as bogmailer for daring to speak out. That must be the biggest crowd Thurles had since they were put out of ICPSA six years ago. Just out of interest is one 100 birder equal to two 50 birders. And I looked at the names and there is a lot more than 6 made 100km trips to boost the numbers.

I see you did not answer my question. Is it true some CSI members are lobbying looking for the FITASC licence for Ireland? And as you are the (un)official spokesman here for csi you surely know or is a secret in the air of freshness blowing across you part of the sport.

Do you attack bogmailer because in your mind he said something about csi or is it for saying something positive on the ICPSA. So in your world you attack him for saying something about csi but it is ok for you to attack the ICPSA. An association you admit is not yours. Look up hypocrit in the dictionary.

The person who started the thread said in an earlier post that is now deleted (???) he is the secretary of a rival to the ICPSA. So his motives for starting this thread are???? If the majority has moved on and couldnt care less about the ICPSA like you say then why do a few of you spend so much time talking about the ICPSA?

I might have missed them but why are the mill hill results not on the csi site? Is there a split in the split already?

Bogmailer listed some of the positives of the ICPSA. We have loads of time here so why are you not listing all the faults in the ICPSA. Surely it is not too hard for you. Or are you stuck on one person and one incident.

It is sad that people will be making a trip this week and will not be allowed to represent their country. Some people are trying to make hay from this and shame on them. And I wonder has superlite ever attended one of these events or represented his country. If not then it is easy for him to say he would not attend?

Hi biddy,
Without getting into a spat with you, I think it is grossly unfair that the Irish team be unable to represent there country, and yes it is easy for me to say as its an easy decision for me to make due to the circumstances. Would you shoot the fitasc venue if you where the only member of the issf sanctioned for the issf running fitasc events.
Also if I were in a position of the executive I would be in touch personally with fitasc and issf to sort this out, how long is it going on now, and why is it taking this long to sort out. I'm sure fitasc didn't ban Ireland on a whim.

Half-cocked

superlite wrote: »

Also if I were in a position of the executive I would be in touch personally with fitasc and issf to sort this out.

Hi Superlite, I think you are confusing the ISSF with the ICTSF, that is where the difficulty is. Do you know for a fact that the ICPSA has not been talking to FITASC about this? Also, it's not just the ICPSA in trouble, I hear from some English CPSA members that there is trouble looming between the BICTSF and FITASC, no details yet but watch this space....

raymo19

Yes that was the first big crowd in Thurles in six years but it it’s safe to say that they won’t be six years waiting for their next crowd. A-lot of people did travel in excess of 100 Km as Munster is a huge province. Lots of people travelled over 100 km’s to support the shoot in Ballinasloe on Saturday and to Mill Hill on Sunday. In Thurles last week there was a 50 bird sporting shoot running simultaneous to a 50 bird trap shoot and there were over 150 entries on the day over the two competitions.
I can’t answer your question about Csi members lobbying Fitasc, I really don’t know. I can’t speak for other Csi members. I only contributed to this thread as I felt insulted by Bogmailers unprovoked comments about CSI members earlier. Fitasc is still the preserve of the ICPSA and is future as an ICPSA discipline lies in the hands of the association’s legal team presently. It would be great for all involved if they could detail what exactly happened in relation to Fitasc. Superlite is obviously still a member and has the right to know. I suspect all you will hear is the impending court case mantra we were all so used to.
Mill Hill CPC are not a Csi club however Mill Hill members are (as are all CAI & Nargc members) more than welcome to attend the Open/Csi shoot at Naul CPC next Sunday over 100 targets and the first 50 counting toward the Csi summer league.
I have re- read this thread and I fail to see any of the positives that Bogmailer has listed.
Bogmailer/ Halfcocked In relation to Mismanagement of that association I suggest you make contact with the association and ask for a copy of the Atlantic report on the Review of corporate governance and have a really good read. Ask them why it is not publicly available for download on their website. Most importantly ask them if any of that report’s findings have been implemented?. If the findings were implemented, why is that association in its current predicament?.
I didn’t hear anything from anyone in relation to a certain employees comments about the three ways things happen within the association, My Way , My Way And My Way ?. Did that go over your heads or have you stuck heads in the ground on the matter and is the association’s usual response.
I will say this again. I have moved on as have most clay shooters. I have no intention been drawn into a tit for tat with a couple of individuals who seem totally uninformed about the association they purport to represent. This is so symptomatic of being kept in the dark for too long. This is the last post I will be making as I starting to feel as though I’m banging my head against a wall.
Raymo 19.

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

Bogmailer/ Halfcocked In relation to Mismanagement of that association I suggest you make contact with the association and ask for a copy of the Atlantic report on the Review of corporate governance and have a really good read. Ask them why it is not publicly available for download on their website. Most importantly ask them if any of that report’s findings have been implemented?. If the findings were implemented, why is that association in its current predicament?.

I remember that report. The reinstatement of Irish Sports Council funding was dependant on it being implemented. Given that the ICPSA has been getting ISC funding for the last few years, they must have been implemented? I don't know if there is a link to the report on the website, but plenty of copies were in circulation at the time, I even saw one.

I didn’t hear anything from anyone in relation to a certain employees comments about the three ways things happen within the association, My Way , My Way And My Way ?.

I believe the person who made those comments was not just an ICPSA employee, but a member of the ICTSC top table who's event the comments were made at - the Home Countries Sporting? Some other members of the ICTSC wanted to give the High Gun a silver plated brass medal that cost a tenner. The big bad man who wanted it his way wanted to stick with solid silver medals as appropriate for winning a Home Countries tournament. Typical of some ICPSA members that they then attack him for standing up for the shooters on the ground. But if you think a ST£10 trinket is an appropriate reward for coming top of the score sheet at an international, then yes, he was in the wrong.

So again I will ask, please give us some concrete examples of mismanagement.

Btw doncha think you might be ye might be swapping Hitler for Stalin......watch this space!!!!

Bogmailer, they may have gotten Stalin's entire Politburo too;) I'm off to work now, wonder if the concrete examples will be posted when I get home tonight?

raymo19

An admission at last. So he did make those comments after-all. The following day in Mill Hill he stood up for shooters rights again didn’t he?. The “incident” as you call it occurred.

As you seem to be able to interpret the workings of this man’s mind could you please clarify what he meant by his outburst to the chairman of the association at the AGM. I have a feeling a lot of people might misinterpret these comments as being downright disrespectful of the chair. We can’t have that happening can we?.

If there is a copy of the Atlantic report still lying around perhaps the association would post it to their website so we can draw our own conclusions on whether or not its findings were implemented or not. Maybe it is there already and you could post a Link.

We heard all about the alleged meetings between the association and the Sports Council in the recent AGM revelations in Shooters Digest. It looks like somebody could be telling porkies. Unfortunately we will have to wait for next month’s issue to hear more on that matter.

The association is facing financial failure by the admission of its own auditors. I wonder who could possibly be responsible for that if not the management?.

The Hitler/Stalin taunts aren’t really funny. You guys may think so highly of yourselves and might like to draw that analogy, however don’t kid yourselves as there is no mass murder or genocide here, just a very few power hungry individuals that are quite happy to stand over the destruction of an 80 Yr old institution.

Raymo19.

Sparks

raymo19 wrote: »

An admission at last. So he did make those comments after-all.

Hang on a second there Raymo, fair play now. You seem to have reported those comments completely out of context as if they were representing an onerous dictatorship within the ICPSA; and now it seems they were actually someone demanding that people winning an international event get a trophy that was worth more than €10. Which was taking the side of shooters over bean counters.

That's a bit of a misrepresentation you've indulged in there and it has me wondering what else you're misrepresenting here.

Half-cocked

An admission at last. So he did make those comments after-all. The following day in Mill Hill he stood up for shooters rights again didn’t he?. The “incident” as you call it occurred

Admission? Wasn't there about 200 people there when he said it? Doesn't require an admission from anyone. And I think this is the first time I've referred to the 'incident', I didn't coin that word to describe it, it's been bandied about on here for months.

As you seem to be able to interpret the workings of this man’s mind could you please clarify what he meant by his outburst to the chairman of the association at the AGM. I have a feeling a lot of people might misinterpret these comments as being downright disrespectful of the chair. We can’t have that happening can we?.

I wasn't at the agm, so I don't know what you're talking about here. As for interpreting the mans mind, I just know he wanted silver instead of brass for the high guns. Would you agree with that or not?

If there is a copy of the Atlantic report still lying around perhaps the association would post it to their website so we can draw our own conclusions on whether or not its findings were implemented or not. Maybe it is there already and you could post a Link.

The ISC commissioned and paid for that report, so why don't you ask them for a copy? Taxpayer funded, so should be available? Make an FOI request if you can't find a copy elsewhere.

We heard all about the alleged meetings between the association and the Sports Council in the recent AGM revelations in Shooters Digest. It looks like somebody could be telling porkies. Unfortunately we will have to wait for next month’s issue to hear more on that matter.

Please elaborate. What porkies? I don't buy ISD anymore.

Still waiting for some concrete examples of mismanagement, not repeated vague references to an old report that is probably no longer relevant.

raymo19

I hope you at least read Irish Shooters Digest last month. You should it’s actually quite a good read. There is very interesting reading in the letters to the Editor. I’m really surprised you didn’t buy it. Are you sure you’re not telling wee porkies now. Cyber Wave.

Anyway back to reality

The fiasco at the AGM is reported on there in black and white for all to read.
The national executive have now lost all trust.

I don’t need a copy of the Atlantic report, however reading it answered several questions I had in my mind. I would however draw your attention to Item 6 of the Key findings "The operating style and culture of the ICPSA, appears to us to be overly aggressive and combative". That report was commissioned in 2008.

I would now draw your attention to the following: Recent Tribunal Findings, Expulsion from Fitasc, Several Director Resignations and a whole raft of new Suspensions, Impending Legal cases.

Have the management really implemented the findings of the report or have they just attended to the low hanging fruit?.

The sports council have alot to answer for here also.

We can go on for the next week about mismanagement of that association if you really have the guts for it. I have.


Raymo 19

Cork24

Ah Clay Shooting has being on the down in Ireland.

I remember i had to pay 300 Euro for a Sign on Fee, and 200 Every year after that,

Plus Every Sunday you had to pay per Round of Clays, you could go though about 4 Boxes of Shells a Weekend.

it all adds up.. We need to make it affordable for people who wish to join Look at how England do things over, some clubs you dont even need to own a Gun, you can buy a One Day Pass, which Covers you for if you have an accident plus you fire the Clubs Gun, and you can not take it passed the Firing Range.

this if Ireland did something like this it would really bring the sport up, i know a few people that love to play clay Shooting but got turned down for a Shotgun, Clubs wont look at you until you get your Gun

Sparks

Cork24 wrote: »

Look at how England do things over, some clubs you dont even need to own a Gun, you can buy a One Day Pass, which Covers you for if you have an accident plus you fire the Clubs Gun, and you can not take it passed the Firing Range.
this if Ireland did something like this it would really bring the sport up

But isn't this already being done by every shotgun range that runs "corporate days" (which seems to be nearly all of them)? And haven't they been doing it that way for years already?

Sparks

raymo19 wrote: »

I hope you at least read Irish Shooters Digest last month

Raymo, some of us don't read that publication. At all. Some of us just got sick of seeing the one-sided stuff printed in it that we knew both sides of and knowing that the other side was never going to get fair billing in it, so we just gave up and walked away from it.

Upshot of which is, saying "oh, buy <such-and-such commercial product> in order to see why my argument is right" doesn't actually hold a lot of water. Either (a) it's your argument and you can make it properly on your own; or (b) you're someone else's mouthpiece. And if that's the case, let them post away themselves here instead.

And to forestall your next sentence, no, I have no dog in this hunt and I'm not being anyone's mouthpiece. I don't even shoot shotgun and I've no urge to do so.

But I can't help watch what you're posting and thinking "I've seen that before". We all have, in fact. We've seen the NRAI-NRPAI acrimony when the NRAI was set up, we've seen the NRAI-LRRAI rowing shortly afterwards (which included exactly the same international element that this thread's raising with FITASC and the ICPSA), and we've seen the same personal sniping bitchiness in just about every internecine spat that's wound up here (and I was as guilty of that as anyone else). And we've seen similar things with every other one of the multitude of rifle and pistol governing bodies, it seems that running a sport professionally is something that's beyond our ken for now.

But feck's sakes man; would you not learn from our mistakes so you can go and make new and exciting mistakes of your own instead of repeating ours?

superlite

Half-cocked wrote: »

Hi Superlite, I think you are confusing the ISSF with the ICTSF, that is where the difficulty is. Do you know for a fact that the ICPSA has not been talking to FITASC about this? Also, it's not just the ICPSA in trouble, I hear from some English CPSA members that there is trouble looming between the BICTSF and FITASC, no details yet but watch this space....

Hi half cocked,
If I'm confusing the issf with the ictsf, so be it, a minor detail. You got what I meant.
As I have read the announcement on the icpsa website they haven't said they are working on a resolution , they said they passed it on to the icpsa solicitor, and in fact that Ireland was the only member of the ICTSF affected, hence it being grossly unfair.
Obviously if things have been moving along the members need to be kept informed and I don't think it would be to much for the general secretary to update the previous report on the web site.
Members have a right to know what is going on.

Cork24

corporate days can cost an arm and a leg in price Terms.


I'm talking about people joining a Clay Club without the need to owning a Shotgun..

Sparks

Cork24 wrote: »

I'm talking about people joining a Clay Club without the need to owning a Shotgun..

There might be issues over joining the club (but that might just be limited to rifle/pistol clubs); but there shouldn't be a problem with not owning a shotgun in a shotgun club and using club guns instead - doesn't Courtlough operate on that principle already?

Half-cocked

superlite wrote: »

Hi half cocked,
If I'm confusing the issf with the ictsf, so be it, a minor detail. You got what I meant.

I got what you meant, just mentioned it in case others didn't. Not having a go or anything.

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

We can go on for the next week about mismanagement of that association if you really have the guts for it. I have.

Raymo 19

I'm sure we could and would you budge 1 inch from your position? Probably not and I wouldn't budge from mine. As for ISD, Sparks post sums it up.