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Game of Thrones Chapter a Day Read: All Readers*Mod Note Post#68*

  • 13-05-2013 8:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭


    MOD NOTE: my view on this is simple : you are hear because you have read the books before and are current with the show.

    There should be no need for spoiler tags as the thread title is quite clear "a chapter a day" discussion about books 4 and 5 etc and that being spoiler tagged is irrelevant imo as if those are being discussed at this stage then you are derailing and dragging the thread off topic.

    This is not a dictatorship however :pac: so any submissions regards rules to posting etc are welcome, best clear this up now before we continue and the thread will run a lot smoother for all.

    So for now the general rule should be stay on topic









    I'm posting this tonight as I don't know how much time I'll have to post the chapter summary tomorrow. So here it is.
    Summary of Prologue


    Night's Watch rangers Gared and Will and their commander Ser Waymar Royce are tracking a band of wildling raiders nine days north of the Wall. Gared is uneasy, but Ser Waymar makes light of his fears. Gared insists that they should turn back because, according to Will, the wildlings are dead. Ser Waymar asks Will again for the details of what he saw.



    Will explains that he saw the wildlings' encampment. Their lean-to was covered by snow, they had no fire, and none of the wildlings moved the whole time he was watching. They were lying on the ground as if dead, but no blood was visible. There was also a woman up in a tree, but she didn't move either. Gared suggests the wildlings must have been killed by the cold, but Ser Waymar points out that the weather has not been cold enough to freeze men like that. He asks Will to lead them to the dead men.



    With night falling, the rangers ride to the camp. Both Will and Gared sense something is wrong, but Ser Waymar mocks them again and commands Gared to stay behind to guard the horses. Gared suggest starting a fire, but Ser Waymar orders him not to. Gared comes close to drawing his sword, but acquiesces.
    Will and Ser Waymar climb up the ridge, Ser Waymar much noisier than Will. When Will reaches his earlier vantage, he sees that the bodies are gone. Ser Waymar, walking upright, reaches the top of the ridge and stands in plain sight. Will warns Ser Waymar to get down, but Ser Waymar just laughs. After declaring that he will find the wildlings before returning to the Wall, Ser Waymar orders Will to climb back up the tree and look for fires.



    Will reluctantly climbs a nearby tree. Below him, Ser Waymar challenges an unseen foe. Will thinks he sees a white shadow moving below, but is not sure. He is about to call down a warning, but stops, unsure. Waymar calls to Will with unease in his voice as he turns in a circle with his sword out. Then Ser Waymar asks about the sudden cold, which Will also feels.



    A Shadow emerges from the woods, tall, gaunt, and white dappled with a gray green shimmer. Ser Waymar nervously commands the shadow to come no further and fights with it. Others appear among the trees. The Other's sword is made of inhumanly sharp translucent crystal. Waymar is able to check the blows until a parry comes a bit too late and the Other’s sword cuts through the mail under Ser Waymar’s arm. Ser Waymar screams “For Robert” and charges but as his blade strikes the Other's sword it shatters. One of the shards hits Waymar's left eye and he falls to his knees, blinded. All of the Others move in and slash at him mercilessly.



    Will turns his head away for a long time before looking back to see that the Others are gone. Will climbs down, examines Royce's body, then picks up the knight's broken twisted sword. He decides to bring it back to show to their commanders, hoping Gared is still with the horses. Then Ser Waymar stands up, his remaining eye burning blue, and his hands go around Will's throat, his touch icy cold.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Prologue


    Ok quick mention about spoilers.

    Anything that has been covered in the TV show does not need spoilers.

    I think that for now any references made to anything that happens in AFFC and ADWD should be put in spoiler tags with a reference to what book it's from.


    Happy reading & discussing everybody.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    MOD NOTE: Rules here should be the same I think for the have not read the books TV thread maybe...... That said everyone here is assumed to have knowledge up to the current tv series, stay on topic !!!!! The thread is called a chapter a day so there really should be no need to discuss books 4 and 5 etc

    As I said in the note in the other thread I welcome submissions on rules for posting here, it's your thread so if there are a set of rules agreed in addition to the usual forum charter I will uphold them







    I'm just going to post the summary here, as I may not have much time to post the chapter summary tomorrow. Here it is, and happy reading & discussing.

    Summary of Prologue


    Night's Watch rangers Gared and Will and their commander Ser Waymar Royce are tracking a band of wildling raiders nine days north of the Wall. Gared is uneasy, but Ser Waymar makes light of his fears. Gared insists that they should turn back because, according to Will, the wildlings are dead. Ser Waymar asks Will again for the details of what he saw.



    Will explains that he saw the wildlings' encampment. Their lean-to was covered by snow, they had no fire, and none of the wildlings moved the whole time he was watching. They were lying on the ground as if dead, but no blood was visible. There was also a woman up in a tree, but she didn't move either. Gared suggests the wildlings must have been killed by the cold, but Ser Waymar points out that the weather has not been cold enough to freeze men like that. He asks Will to lead them to the dead men.



    With night falling, the rangers ride to the camp. Both Will and Gared sense something is wrong, but Ser Waymar mocks them again and commands Gared to stay behind to guard the horses. Gared suggest starting a fire, but Ser Waymar orders him not to. Gared comes close to drawing his sword, but acquiesces.
    Will and Ser Waymar climb up the ridge, Ser Waymar much noisier than Will. When Will reaches his earlier vantage, he sees that the bodies are gone. Ser Waymar, walking upright, reaches the top of the ridge and stands in plain sight. Will warns Ser Waymar to get down, but Ser Waymar just laughs. After declaring that he will find the wildlings before returning to the Wall, Ser Waymar orders Will to climb back up the tree and look for fires.



    Will reluctantly climbs a nearby tree. Below him, Ser Waymar challenges an unseen foe. Will thinks he sees a white shadow moving below, but is not sure. He is about to call down a warning, but stops, unsure. Waymar calls to Will with unease in his voice as he turns in a circle with his sword out. Then Ser Waymar asks about the sudden cold, which Will also feels.



    A Shadow emerges from the woods, tall, gaunt, and white dappled with a gray green shimmer. Ser Waymar nervously commands the shadow to come no further and fights with it. Others appear among the trees. The Other's sword is made of inhumanly sharp translucent crystal. Waymar is able to check the blows until a parry comes a bit too late and the Other’s sword cuts through the mail under Ser Waymar’s arm. Ser Waymar screams “For Robert” and charges but as his blade strikes the Other's sword it shatters. One of the shards hits Waymar's left eye and he falls to his knees, blinded. All of the Others move in and slash at him mercilessly.



    Will turns his head away for a long time before looking back to see that the Others are gone. Will climbs down, examines Royce's body, then picks up the knight's broken twisted sword. He decides to bring it back to show to their commanders, hoping Gared is still with the horses. Then Ser Waymar stands up, his remaining eye burning blue, and his hands go around Will's throat, his touch icy cold.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Prologue

    I'll be posting more in the 'have read the books' thread, but I'll aim to post a chapter summary in here every day as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    mariebeth wrote: »
    I think that for now any references made to anything that happens in AFFC and ADWD should be put in spoiler tags with a reference to what book it's from.

    And Storm of Swords 2 as well, no?



    The first thing I remember thinking when I picked up the first book and heard the title of the series - "A Song of Ice and Fire" - was that calling the whole thing "A Game of Thrones" would've been much better. I almost hesitate to call it ASoIaF to other people because it reeks so awfully of dungeons and dragons-level nerdistry. I'd say that'd nearly puts some people off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,602 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Gbear wrote: »
    And Storm of Swords 2 as well, no?



    The first thing I remember thinking when I picked up the first book and heard the title of the series - "A Song of Ice and Fire" - was that calling the whole thing "A Game of Thrones" would've been much better. I almost hesitate to call it ASoIaF to other people because it reeks so awfully of dungeons and dragons-level nerdistry. I'd say that'd nearly puts some people off.

    I can actually remember the first time I was ever told about them, would have been 3 years ago now and a guy who I was coming home from college with who had already read the books was telling me that they were making the Game of Thrones books, clearly worried I'd think him a weirdo if he called it ASoIaF. I read the books in the last year as a personal crusade against watching the show, due to how crappily the books of my childhood were adapted. Guess I showed him who the real nerd was :D.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭iamanengine


    Just read it there :P Was a bit eager! Just on a sidenote, I assume that it's ok to spoil things that have happened up to date in the show?

    As in we're allowed to talk about
    the White Walkers
    even though they haven't actually been mentioned yet.

    Won't say much now as I'm pretty tired, not sure what to make of this so far, as I know exactly what is going on so there is no suspense. I guess it's more for the extra background etc.

    But in saying that I still enjoyed it, I like the style of writing. I think I'll enjoy this read!

    Thinking back, that 1st scene of Game of Thrones seems so long ago!

    Poor Will, I was beginning to like him :pac:

    Seems like the book will fill in on a lot that the tv series had to leave out, will enjoy all the extra info :D

    Edit - Just read your post in the other thread which answers my question :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭Molly


    Spoilering things is a giant pain in the ass.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Washington Irving


    What's the reasoning for spoilering? If this thread is for those who have already read the books then surely spoiler tags aren't necessary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Great opening scene. I like the way you get a subtle sense of the social order, as in Gared is the more experienced ranger and Will is a more experienced woodsman but they both have to defer to Royce because of his social status as a lord and commander. It also feels like these things don't matter so much on the other side of the wall, from the observations on the unsuitability of Royce's sword and horse.

    I'm guessing that the Others are wites and the one that fought with Royce was a White Walker?

    I love the descriptions of the cold.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    My reason behind spoilers for the later books was in case some people haven't finished the later books.

    Maybe the mods might prefer to weigh in on whether or not we need to use spoilers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Spoiler tags in a "have read the books" thread is a big turn off.

    Its going to be a total pain for those people that have only read book 1 or 2, as most of the discussion could end up spoilered.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭podgemonster


    Ser Waymar Royce actually put up a decent brave fight against the WW. All his foolish arrogance aside, he died a true man of the Night's Watch.

    And now his watch has ended....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    ^ Agreed.

    I was surprised that the Others were laughing as they killed him. I had forgotten that totally or it didn't register the first time I read it.

    I had never pictured them laughing as they killed, makes them seem a little more malicious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    This was always one of my least favourite chapters but I think that was because I watched the series first and as an intro to the show it nearly turned me off it.

    As an intro to the book though on this read I realised its actually very good. It sets the scene and lets the reader know what kind of a society the books are set in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Tom.D.BJJ


    Swords rose and fell in deathly silence. It was cold butchery.
    • Our first POV character dies in the prologue.
    • I still find it starnge that the third son would willingly join the NW


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »
    • Our first POV character dies in the prologue.
    • I still find it starnge that the third son would willingly join the NW

    How willing would it have been? He may not have been given a choice.

    I can't remember if there's much said later about him but there's a lot of very distinguished Royce's.
    They probably fed him the line about how honoured he should be about it and that given his training in arms and education he'd probably be in with a shout at Lord Commander later down the line.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Try to finish reading the prologue without the theme music popping into your head at the end, bet you can't.


  • Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Reading the prologue again brings back the fearful atmosphere that is portrayed beyond the wall. It is mentioned numerous times how experienced Will & especially Gared are but how on this night something is amiss. Accompanied by the arrogance of Royce you get the feeling from the first few pages that Royce is going to get these two lads into trouble because of his pride & his pursuit of some sort of glory by finding these "dead" wildings. When I first read the prologue I was sure that Royce would be the son of a huge character in the book, I still hate him after reading it for the 3rd time!

    The tension builds until they come up close to the camp and when they got off their horses I remember thinking, bad idea! The atmosphere keeps building with the insight of Will & Gared fears which keeps you reading. Then the wilding bodies are missing and for me anyway I knew that they were ****ed, there was something scary in those woods! I felt relieved for Will climbing the tree getting off the ground and you just know something is coming. Then the White Walkers emerge. I was & still am surprised that Royce showed a bit of bravery & honour by trying to fight them off but GRRM makes it clear that these White Walkers are far more powerful then men. When he is struck down you can't help but feel a little for sorry him as arrogant a fool he was.

    Then when the White Walkers leave and Will is checking Royce, when his dead eye opened first thing that came to my head was a scene from Dawn of the Dead. Great start to a great book that fills you full of questions going into the next chapter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭bluestripe93


    My book arrived this morning, just in time, I've read the prologue but I want to keep reading it:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Mr Freeze wrote: »
    I was surprised that the Others were laughing as they killed him. I had forgotten that totally or it didn't register the first time I read it.

    I had never pictured them laughing as they killed, makes them seem a little more malicious.

    It didn't register for me either, but I skimmed through the prologue on previous reads, kind of felt like I'd seen it, and I knew what happened so I didn't need to pay attention, how wrong I was.

    What makes me wonder is just how important is it that our first introduction to Westeros and the world of ASOIAF is North of the wall? Why is it that we meet men of the Nights Watch before anyone else in Westeros?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    mariebeth wrote: »
    It didn't register for me either, but I skimmed through the prologue on previous reads, kind of felt like I'd seen it, and I knew what happened so I didn't need to pay attention, how wrong I was.

    What makes me wonder is just how important is it that our first introduction to Westeros and the world of ASOIAF is North of the wall? Why is it that we meet men of the Nights Watch before anyone else in Westeros?

    We're introduced to key concepts that are fundamental to the nature of Westeros and the North especially.

    The north is basically defined by the wall. I suppose it sets an underpinning menace to the rest of the book although given that most other characters haven't a clue what's really beyond the wall, it's mostly ignored and forgotten about until much later in the book when the wights attack Mormont.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 320 ✭✭Interrobang


    Every time I re-read this I'm reminded of how it gripped me the first time around, and of how quickly you can become invested in GRRM's characters.

    The tension he creates from the outset serves as a neat precursor to everything that follows after the prologue, and establishes an undercurrent of unease that never truly dissipates even as the novel moves south of the wall afterwards. When we later learn how carelessly most people in the Seven Kingdoms dismiss stories of the Others, we remember that we've already seen this in microcosm: the sense of foreboding that builds as the experienced Rangers sense something different about this night, juxtaposed perfectly with Royce's careless arrogance.

    The characterisation of Royce is excellent. You understand from the get-go that this is a young man with a frustrated sense of entitlement whose losses to the traditions of primogeniture he compensates for with swagger and bravado. (That, and the fact that he's an arsehōle.) GRRM undermines him from the outset, referring to him as a lordling and making great little throwaway remarks like, 'At least in so far as his wardrobe was concerned'. And yet he redeems himself, standing his ground to do battle against the Other. Whether that was initially through arrogance or ignorance or stupidity doesn't matter; what matters is that in the course of that battle he found honour, and we find that men are perhaps not so easily judged.

    I'd really like to have seen more of Gared and heard more of his story. I found him intriguing, the way his speech patterns belied his grizzled appearance, and I wondered where his clear sense of self and his justifiable pride and confidence in his abilities came from. The tension between him and Royce beautifully mirrors the building tension of the prologue, and made me think that there was something about Gared that made him 'better' than a man-at-arms.

    I love Will in the Prologue. He really is your Everyman character here, the one with whom you identify most, and his sense of fear and foreboding grips you. The fear that renders him speechless as he watches the Others approach and watches Royce's battle is palpable. You feel it in your gut, in your throat, and you almost hold your breath with him. That moment when you realise that he's not safe, when he faces the inevitability of his death, that's when the measure of Will becomes clear.

    The introduction of the Others... oh, that simple line, 'The Others made no sound'. You have no idea at this stage who they are, but you still have that gut-wrenching, something-really-bad-is-going-to-happen, oh shīt moment when you read that line. The sheer menace of their silent approach is chilling, as chilling as the cold that heralds their presence. The effortlessness with which the Other wears down Royce is unnerving, as are his companions who bear implacable witness to the fight, awaiting the inevitable outcome before converging like raptors on the helpless Royce.

    Fantastic introduction, great characterisation in just a few broad strokes, highly atmospheric and suitably menacing... what's not to like? :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    krudler wrote: »
    Try to finish reading the prologue without the theme music popping into your head at the end, bet you can't.

    Even harder - try to read Ned's dialogue in something other than Sean Bean's voice..

    One does not simply...:P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Gbear wrote: »
    Even harder - try to read Ned's dialogue in something other than Sean Bean's voice..

    One does not simply...:P

    I find with something like this it's easier to read after seeing the series, you have faces to put to the names and points of reference for places and such. There's are tons and tons of side characters in the series as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    So how many read ahead yesterday? :) Don't worry if you do, it's very hard to stay focused on a chapter a day if it's your first time reading. Just make sure you remember to come back & discuss the chapter for the day :)


    Chapter 1 – Bran 1

    It is the ninth year of summer. Seven-year-old Bran is traveling with a total of twenty men, including his father Lord Eddard Stark to see the king's justice done. It is the first time that he is allowed to join. Bran's older brother Robb thinks he must be a wildling, sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, which makes Bran think of the tales Old Nan has told him about wildlings.



    They bring the man forth, an old man dressed in the ragged blacks of the Night’s Watch who has lost his ears and a finger to frostbite. Lord Eddard questions the man briefly. Two of Eddard’s guardsmen drag the man to the stump and then Theon Greyjoy, Eddard's ward/hostage, gives Eddard his Valyrian steel sword Ice. Eddard announces the sentence and raises the blade. Jon Snow, Bran's bastard brother, tells him to watch and not look away, and Bran watches as his father strikes off the man's head with a single stroke. The head lands by Theon, who laughs and kicks it away. Jon calls Theon an ass under his breath and compliments Bran on his poise during the execution.



    On the way back to Winterfell, Robb and Jon argue about whether or not the deserter died bravely, before racing their horses to the bridge leaving Bran and his pony behind. Eddard rides up and asks if Bran knows why he executed the man himself. Bran replies that he was a Wildling. Eddard corrects him, telling Bran he was a deserter, and explains that the First Men, of whom the Starks are descendants, believe that the man who pronounces the verdict should do the execution himself, lest he become too comfortable in ordering deaths. The Starks still hold to that principle.


    Jon calls from up ahead for them to come see what he and Robb have found. They find Robb holding something in his arms next to the corpse of a wolf larger than Bran's pony. Jon correctly identifies the corpse as that of a direwolf. Theon comments that direwolves have not been seen south of the Wall for two hundred years. Bran then notices that Robb is cradling a small pup, and gives it a stroke after Robb reassures him. Then Jon gives him another pup.



    When they inspect the mother's corpse, they find a large piece of shattered antler lodged in her throat. The soldiers in the company feel this to be a bad omen. Theon offers to kill the pups but Bran protests. Eddard initially states killing them would be the best but changes his mind when Jon points out that there are five pups, one for each of Eddard's legitimate children; they are meant to have the wolves. Bran immediately realizes, along with everyone else, that the comparison only works out because Jon is not claiming one for himself.
    Robb and Bran both state they are willing to nurse their pups themselves. Eddard stresses that the children must feed and raise the pups themselves, not pass them off to the servants, and must treat them well lest they become dangerous. Both Robb and Bran state they will not allow the pups to die. As they begin to ride away, Jon hears a noise and goes back to discover a sixth cub, an albino with red eyes, that has crawled away from its mother. Bran finds it curious that it is the only pup that has opened its eyes. Theon claims that the albino will die quicker than the others, but Jon disagrees, claiming it for himself.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Chapter 1 – Bran 1

    It is the ninth year of summer. Seven-year-old Bran is traveling with a total of twenty men, including his father Lord Eddard Stark to see the king's justice done. It is the first time that he is allowed to join. Bran's older brother Robb thinks he must be a wildling, sworn to Mance Rayder, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, which makes Bran think of the tales Old Nan has told him about wildlings.



    They bring the man forth, an old man dressed in the ragged blacks of the Night’s Watch who has lost his ears and a finger to frostbite. Lord Eddard questions the man briefly. Two of Eddard’s guardsmen drag the man to the stump and then Theon Greyjoy, Eddard's ward/hostage, gives Eddard his Valyrian steel sword Ice. Eddard announces the sentence and raises the blade. Jon Snow, Bran's bastard brother, tells him to watch and not look away, and Bran watches as his father strikes off the man's head with a single stroke. The head lands by Theon, who laughs and kicks it away. Jon calls Theon an ass under his breath and compliments Bran on his poise during the execution.



    On the way back to Winterfell, Robb and Jon argue about whether or not the deserter died bravely, before racing their horses to the bridge leaving Bran and his pony behind. Eddard rides up and asks if Bran knows why he executed the man himself. Bran replies that he was a Wildling. Eddard corrects him, telling Bran he was a deserter, and explains that the First Men, of whom the Starks are descendants, believe that the man who pronounces the verdict should do the execution himself, lest he become too comfortable in ordering deaths. The Starks still hold to that principle.


    Jon calls from up ahead for them to come see what he and Robb have found. They find Robb holding something in his arms next to the corpse of a wolf larger than Bran's pony. Jon correctly identifies the corpse as that of a direwolf. Theon comments that direwolves have not been seen south of the Wall for two hundred years. Bran then notices that Robb is cradling a small pup, and gives it a stroke after Robb reassures him. Then Jon gives him another pup.



    When they inspect the mother's corpse, they find a large piece of shattered antler lodged in her throat. The soldiers in the company feel this to be a bad omen. Theon offers to kill the pups but Bran protests. Eddard initially states killing them would be the best but changes his mind when Jon points out that there are five pups, one for each of Eddard's legitimate children; they are meant to have the wolves. Bran immediately realizes, along with everyone else, that the comparison only works out because Jon is not claiming one for himself.
    Robb and Bran both state they are willing to nurse their pups themselves. Eddard stresses that the children must feed and raise the pups themselves, not pass them off to the servants, and must treat them well lest they become dangerous. Both Robb and Bran state they will not allow the pups to die. As they begin to ride away, Jon hears a noise and goes back to discover a sixth cub, an albino with red eyes, that has crawled away from its mother. Bran finds it curious that it is the only pup that has opened its eyes. Theon claims that the albino will die quicker than the others, but Jon disagrees, claiming it for himself.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_1




    I'll be back to discuss later.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    I like the way the book is more subtle than the show- you can tell that the condemned man is Gared from his appearance but they don't make it explicit.

    I think that Jon Snow comes across more impressive on first meeting than he did in the show. It builds up a good picture of the boys' relationships with each other and with their father.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    krudler wrote: »
    I find with something like this it's easier to read after seeing the series, you have faces to put to the names and points of reference for places and such. There's are tons and tons of side characters in the series as well.

    It's weird with GOT though when the ages of so many characters are different in the show. I only read about 100pgs of this a few years back but Danyreas was something like 12 in the novel, which was uncomfortable reading. :(

    Might catch up in a few days when I've time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 320 ✭✭Interrobang


    While told from Bran's point of view, I've always thought of this as Jon's chapter. Of all the characters therein, at this very early stage his is the one with the greatest strength and the most promise (and surely this can't just be a coincidence in terms of the whole arc of ASOIAF? ;))

    While Robb and Jon both flank Bran at the holdfast, it is Jon who is the more brotherly, the steadying influence who guides Bran through bearing witness to the beheading of Gared and who reassures him afterwards. He is also the more observant (he reads more in Gared's eyes than Robb, for example), and there is the suggestion that Bran is more like Jon than his trueborn brother. This link between them is reinforced later when Bran and Jon prove to be the most intuitive wargs of all the Stark children. It is Jon, also, who hears the runt pup's whimpering when the others cannot - whether through nature or necessity, his senses are more keenly honed than the others. The meaning he draws from the direwolf pups mark him as someone who sees more, connects more and understands more, while his omission of himself as a Stark child shows that he puts the greater good before himself... and yet he is clearly no pushover, as evidenced in his barely concealed contempt for Theon. I've been quite disappointed by Jon in the HBO series because he demonstrates much greater perception and fortitude in the books.

    Jon is definitely right about one thing: Theon is an ass. Beyond observing that he has little respect for life we don't see much of Theon, but Jon's reactions to him can't help but colour the way we see him. You can't help but wonder just how much of that cocksure swagger would remain were he to lose the protection of his guardian.

    Much is made of Eddard Stark's inscrutable honour and sense of duty throughout GoT, and we get our first introduction to both in this chapter. We get to see both sides of the man, though: the father and the lord. He talks to Bran of honour and duty, but takes the time to elicit the boy's own thoughts first. Although he has taken life, it is something that he respects. Responsibility is something he takes seriously, and something he expects his sons to take seriously also. I like the way Eddard's relationship with Jon is introduced. When Robb and Jon discover the direwolf, Eddard clearly identifies Jon as his own, inviting Bran to come and look at 'what mischief my sons have rooted out'. His reaction when Jon omits himself from the count of Stark children belies a tender concern, and Jon's words and actions give him pause for thought - much is implied in the short silence that follows before Robb 'rushed into the silence he left'.

    Robb is pretty much what you'd expect from an eldest son, as yet unburdened by the responsibilities of rule but possessed of an assurance that no doubt comes with his position. You do tend to wish, however, that his character were somewhat tempered by some of Jon's qualities.

    Of Bran there is little to say at this stage, and no indication of the events about to unfold in his young life. The strongest impressions we have are the awe with which he regards his father and the love he feels for Jon. The rest is typical of a young boy of his age, ready to be imprinted, shaped and influenced by the events and experiences that will make him a man. He is an open book at this stage, more a reflection of those around him than anything else.

    Plenty of foreshadowing of later events here, most notably the antler that kills the direwolf. I also like how the Others are referred to in decreasing measure throughout the chapter, moving from a distant, imagined threat by a young boy to stories told by an old nurse to an offhand oath. Coming directly after the events of the Prologue, you quickly get the impression that those south of the wall haven't the first clue what the man they just executed might well have witnessed.

    Also, I want a direwolf.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Tom.D.BJJ


    I would agree that this is Jon's chapter.

    There's a lot of detail in the descriptions of Jon and Robb. Jon (slender, dark-haired & grey eyes, strong and fast) vs. Robb (muscular, red-brown hair & blue eyes, graceful and quick). Brothers indeed :pac:

    Jon refers to Theon repeatedly as Greyjoy. You can taste his dislike of Theon. It's dripping from the page. We're not supposed to like him, but i wonder why it was Theon who brought forward Ice. Theon is a ward, not a squire nor a servant.

    I thinks it's already clear that Jon has grown up harder than his brothers, even moreso than Theon, and you can hear the toughnes with the last words "I think not, Greyjoy. This one belongs to me".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,602 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    snausages wrote: »
    It's weird with GOT though when the ages of so many characters are different in the show. I only read about 100pgs of this a few years back but Danyreas was something like 12 in the novel, which was uncomfortable reading. :(

    Might catch up in a few days when I've time.

    Don't see how it should be uncomfortable? It's how things happened. History books will provide similar reading ;)

    The show kind of ruins the medieval feeling a bit where it went straight from childhood to adulthood with sexual maturity. The likes of Robb and Jon at the age they are in the show would be nowhere near as inexperienced as they would be. It makes the character arcs more complete in the book.

    Anyway, I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread so I'll leave it at that while again encouraging you to keep modern ideals and laws out of your head while reading.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭iamanengine


    On re-reading the prologue today I think it's a really clever start to the book, trying to push the show out of my mind. It introduces this really menacing supernatural type beings and then we more or less hear nothing about them for a good bit. I think it does the Walkers more justice as well, the thought of them laughing makes them seem far more eerie!

    Haven't had time to read the next chapter yet, will get to it this evening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »
    I would agree that this is Jon's chapter.

    There's a lot of detail in the descriptions of Jon and Robb. Jon (slender, dark-haired & grey eyes, strong and fast) vs. Robb (muscular, red-brown hair & blue eyes, graceful and quick). Brothers indeed :pac:

    Jon refers to Theon repeatedly as Greyjoy. You can taste his dislike of Theon. It's dripping from the page. We're not supposed to like him, but i wonder why it was Theon who brought forward Ice. Theon is a ward, not a squire nor a servant.

    I thinks it's already clear that Jon has grown up harder than his brothers, even moreso than Theon, and you can here the toughnes with the last words "I think not, Greyjoy. This one belongs to me".

    It's clear that Jon has a chip on his shoulder and Theon certainly seems like the sort of smarmy prick that'd piss Jon off. Robb had everything easy growing up, relatively speaking. Theon would've been quite subservient to him because of that and him being Ned's heir.
    A bastard is treated differently though and Theon probably would've felt going after Jon would've been a way to climb the social ladder.
    Not overtly mocking his bastardy but generally just trying to assert himself as dominant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 320 ✭✭Interrobang


    Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »
    i wonder why it was Theon who brought forward Ice. Theon is a ward, not a squire nor a servant.

    Good observation, and a good question. I wonder was it on the instruction of Eddard, or whether Theon himself was eager to do it? He has no respect for life and death seems to entertain him: he kicks Gared's severed head; and he's the first to draw his weapon to kill the direwolf pups and takes pleasure in the thought that they won't survive. I wouldn't put it past him to put himself in the next best position to wielding Ice.

    Then again, Eddard evidently has some fondness for Jon, and perhaps putting Theon in the role of sword bearer is an indirect way of putting him in his place as subtle punishment for...
    Gbear wrote: »
    Theon probably would've felt going after Jon would've been a way to climb the social ladder.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Also, I want a direwolf.

    As long as you feed it and train it yourself you can have one! :)

    I hadn't actually thought of it as more Jon's chapter, although now that it has been mentioned, it really does show Jon in a strong light, ready to put others before himself.

    What stuck out to me was that the first introduction from Bran's POV to Robb and Jon were as his brothers together, and while he singularly mentions Jon as his bastard brother a short while later, firstly I think it shows that he considers Jon as true a brother as Robb, regardless of Jon's status.

    Again I'm getting much more caught up in the descriptiveness of the chapters by reading it slowly, and while it probably helps that I can picture it more thoroughly thanks to the show, I could almost feel the cold as they were standing together, horses and men with their breath combining in the cold weather. GRRM really can set a scene.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Tom.D.BJJ


    Helping out Mariebeth :)
    Chapter 2 - Catelyn 1

    Catelyn Stark seeks out her husband Eddard in the godswood following his return to Winterfell. She knows her husband always goes there after executing a man. She finds the godswood very dark and unsettling compared to the sunny one she remembers from her childhood home in Riverrun. Unlike her own family, the Starks keep faith with the Old Gods, rather than the Faith of the Seven.

    She finds Ned polishing his greatsword, Ice, under the heart tree at the centre of the grove. He asks after the children, and Catelyn tells him they are deciding on the names for their new wolves. Ned notes that the man he excecuted is the fourth deserter this year. He adds that the man was half mad, that something had put a fear into him so deep that he could not reach him. The Night's Watch is dwindling, down to less than a thousand men, not just from desertions, but from ranging casualties. One day he may have to call his banners to fight Mance Rayder himself. Catelyn warns him that there are darker things beyond the Wall. Ned replies that the Others have been dead for eight thousand years, and that Maester Luwin claims they never existed at all. Catelyn replies that nobody has seen direwolves until today.

    When Ned asks why Catelyn has come, she tells him that Jon Arryn, his foster father and her brother-in-law, is dead. The news came in King Robert's own hand. When asked, Catelyn explains that Jon Arryn's widow--Catelynn's sister Lysa Arryn--and her son have returned to the Eyrie and says that she thinks her sister should not be alone and should have gone back to Riverrun. Ned urges Catelyn to take the children to keep her sister company, but then Catelyn informs him that Robert Baratheon has also written that he is coming to Winterfell. This news gladdens Ned; it has been many years since Ned has seen Robert. However, Catelyn is worried about the omen of a direwolf found dead in the snow with an antler buried in its throat. With Robert coming, Catelyn confirms with Ned that they should send word to his brother Benjen on the Wall. Then Catelyn informs Ned that Robert's wife Cersei Lannister, their children, and her Lannister brothers are also coming. Ned does not like the Lannisters because they came to Robert’s cause only after victory was certain. Eddard is looking forward to seeing the children and then announces his worry about feeding them all.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_2


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    ^^^Thanks Tom :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Chapter 2 – Catelyn 1
    Catelyn Stark seeks out her husband Eddard in the godswood following his return to Winterfell. She knows her husband always goes there after executing a man. She finds the godswood very dark and unsettling compared to the sunny one she remembers from her childhood home in Riverrun. Unlike her own family, the Starks keep faith with the Old Gods, rather than the Faith of the Seven.

    She finds Ned polishing his greatsword, Ice, under the heart tree at the centre of the grove. He asks after the children, and Catelyn tells him they are deciding on the names for their new wolves. Ned notes that the man he excecuted is the fourth deserter this year. He adds that the man was half mad, that something had put a fear into him so deep that he could not reach him. The Night's Watch is dwindling, down to less than a thousand men, not just from desertions, but from ranging casualties. One day he may have to call his banners to fight Mance Rayder himself. Catelyn warns him that there are darker things beyond the Wall. Ned replies that the Others have been dead for eight thousand years, and that Maester Luwin claims they never existed at all. Catelyn replies that nobody has seen direwolves until today.

    When Ned asks why Catelyn has come, she tells him that Jon Arryn, his foster father and her brother-in-law, is dead. The news came in King Robert's own hand. When asked, Catelyn explains that Jon Arryn's widow--Catelynn's sister Lysa Arryn--and her son have returned to the Eyrie and says that she thinks her sister should not be alone and should have gone back to Riverrun. Ned urges Catelyn to take the children to keep her sister company, but then Catelyn informs him that Robert Baratheon has also written that he is coming to Winterfell. This news gladdens Ned; it has been many years since Ned has seen Robert. However, Catelyn is worried about the omen of a direwolf found dead in the snow with an antler buried in its throat. With Robert coming, Catelyn confirms with Ned that they should send word to his brother Benjen on the Wall. Then Catelyn informs Ned that Robert's wife Cersei Lannister, their children, and her Lannister brothers are also coming. Ned does not like the Lannisters because they came to Robert’s cause only after victory was certain. Eddard is looking forward to seeing the children and then announces his worry about feeding them all.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_2


  • Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is going well :) I haven't got a chance to post about the bran chapter but the beauty of the way he thread is set up we San all jump back in any time :) . All I will see about the Bran chapter is that you instantly like Eddard and the Stark family from how they are portrayed in the chapter. You know their father lives by honour and its rubbed off on his children. It's really well written and I don't know about every one else but when the dire wolves came into it I knew they'd be a big part to play going forward. I didn't like Theon from the very start


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Tom.D.BJJ


    Religion is a theme which becomes very prevalent in later books, but it’s also mentioned here. It sets the Starks apart even from the women they take as wives. Ned built her a sept, so that she could worship, and seems more accepting of her religion than she of his. The godswood makes her uneasy, and when she sits to talk, she sits with her back to the weirwood so she doesn’t have to look at the face.

    In the last chapter, we met Bran, Robb and Jon so Cat gives us a brief introduction to the other Stark children. Arya is “already in love”. Sansa is “charmed and gracious”. Rickon is “not quite sure”. I laughed at this because I didn’t pick up on it first time around, but it’s almost exactly how their characters turn out.

    Age is something interesting too, and somewhat different to what we know. Waymar Royce was eighteen, and a ranger half a year when he met his demise under the sword of an Other. Rickon is three, and “must learn to face his fears”. At seven, he would be expected to be old enough to watch a man beheaded like Bran. Robb and Jon are fourteen and “an old hand at justice”. Grow up fast and be ready because “Winter is coming”.

    We’re also introduced to the Queen, “the Lannister woman” whose “pride is said to grow with every passing year”. Can you say foreshadow? Ned is willing to suffer an “infestation of Lannisters” for Roberts company. There it is, summed up in one throw away comment. Lannister bad, Stark good. From the Stark point of view, of course, but that’s the glory of everything being p.o.v. We get to see every side.

    “Where the king goes, the realm follows”. True for every ruler in the book. Strong king, strong kingdom but as he/she changes then so does the kingdom.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    The order in which we are introduced to the characters is also important.

    If we'd been given a Lannister POV first, where the Starks are made out to be the "bad guys" and Cersei or Jaime had been complaining about the dour and cold Starks, we may feel differently. But the fact that Martin sets the Starks up as honourable, then introduces these interlopers and gives us the Stark impression of them as being almost cartoon bad guys sets us against them from the start.

    Even though the story is told from character POVs, there is still an element of "omniscient narrator".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    The order in which we are introduced to the characters is also important.

    If we'd been given a Lannister POV first, where the Starks are made out to be the "bad guys" and Cersei or Jaime had been complaining about the dour and cold Starks, we may feel differently. But the fact that Martin sets the Starks up as honourable, then introduces these interlopers and gives us the Stark impression of them as being almost cartoon bad guys sets us against them from the start.

    Even though the story is told from character POVs, there is still an element of "omniscient narrator".

    I think by their actions the Lannisters would've been considered as the "bad guys" eventually.

    It would've been interesting however, to be introduced to them first as the protagonists and only realise through the course of book 1 that, actually they're kinda evil. And then swing it right back around when Jamie starts redeeming himself in book 3.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    You could paint the Starks as baddies quite easily though.

    Just who is this Northerner arriving down to KL with his accusations of incest, he's trying to take the throne for himself, the traitor, he must have been put up to it by Stannis.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    You could paint the Starks as baddies quite easily though.

    Just who is this Northerner arriving down to KL with his accusations of incest, he's trying to take the throne for himself, the traitor, he must have been put up to it by Stannis.

    Thing is though, the chapters are internal monologues, so if they were from Cercei or Jamie's point of view it'd be hard to avoid the whole incest thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Chapter 3 – Daenerys 1

    Viserys Targaryen presents his thirteen-year-old sister, Daenerys, with a fine silk dress. The dress is a gift from their host Magister Illyrio Mopatis, who has also promised gold and jewels so she will look like a princess. Daenerys questions Illyrio's motives, but Viserys insists that the Magister only wants to get in his good graces for when he reclaims the Seven Kingdoms. Daenerys still doesn't trust Illyrio, but knows better than to say anything for fear of making Viserys angry (which he calls "waking the dragon").

    Viserys is preparing to present Daenerys to the Dothraki horselord, Khal Drogo, in the hope that the Khal will take her as his wife in exchange for soldiers to reclaim the throne. He warns Daenerys not to fail him and wake the dragon, twisting one of her nipples for emphasis. Viserys adds that when they write the history of his realm they will say it began this night.

    After Viserys leaves, Daenerys thinks of Westeros, a place she has never seen. She recalls the stories of her brother Crown Prince Rhaegar’s death at the hand of Robert Baratheon, her father King Aerys's murder by the Kingslayer, and her mother and brother's escape to Dragonstone, where her mother died giving birth to her. Daenerys also recalls how she and her brother fled Dragonstone with Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men, who took them to Braavos. There they lived in a big house with a red door and Ser Willem was always kind to her. But when Ser Willem died, the servants stole what money was left and they were put out of the house. Since then they have wandered, with Viserys keeping them moving in fear of the Usurper’s assassins. Near the end of her reverie, Dany reflects on how Viserys, now known as the Beggar King behind his back, has become obsessed with recovering his throne, while she only wants her childhood back.

    Illyrio's servants come to bathe Daenerys and prepare her for her meeting with Khal Drogo. She is intended to marry Drogo, though she has always assumed she would marry her brother like the Targaryens always have. The servants tell her how lucky she is to marry a man so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars. Once she is properly dressed, her brother returns with Magister Illyrio. Viserys commands her to stand up and turn around. Illyrio showers Daenerys with compliments while Viserys complains she is too skinny and too young. Illyrio reassures him that she is old enough for the Khal and comments on her silver-gold hair and purple eyes, the hallmarks of old Valyrian nobility. When Viserys states that barbarians are said to have queer tastes such as boys and sheep, Illyrio warns him not to say these things to the Khal, creating a flare of anger in Viserys’ eyes.

    The three of them journey in Illyrio's litter to Khal Drogo's manse in the pitch dark. Viserys states that 10,000 Dothraki screamers will be enough when combined with those that are just awaiting his return to overthrow the usurper. He speculates on those who would join their cause--House Tyrell, House Redwyne, House Darry, House Greyjoy, and the Dornishmen. Illyrio assures Viserys that the Seven Kingdoms secretly await his return, though Daenerys doubts him.

    Illyrio says that the horselords' mansion was a gift from the magisters of Pentos, to help win the Khal's friendship. They arrive at the mansion and are announced as King Viserys and Princess Daenerys. Illyrio points out several prominent guests, including Ser Jorah Mormont, who has fled the Seven Kingdoms under sentence of death and spent much time among the Dothraki.

    Illyrio then points out Khal Drogo himself, who is as graceful as a panther, and younger than Daenerys would have thought. Viserys notes his long braid, which means he has never been defeated in combat. Daenerys, who notes a cold hard face, is afraid of him and asks to go home, provoking a rant from Viserys about why they can’t go home because it has been taken away from them. Daenerys meant their rooms in Illyrio’s estate, but none of the places they have stayed in have been Viserys' home. Viserys also assures Daenerys that he would let Khal Drogo's whole khalasar, including their horses, rape her if it won him back the Seven Kingdoms. Then Viserys tells her to stop crying, because Illyrio is leading Khal Drogo over to meet them. Daenerys stops crying, stands up straight, and smiles.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_3


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Hope everyone is still reading, or are ye too engrossed in the books? :)
    Chapter 3 – Daenerys 1

    Viserys Targaryen presents his thirteen-year-old sister, Daenerys, with a fine silk dress. The dress is a gift from their host Magister Illyrio Mopatis, who has also promised gold and jewels so she will look like a princess. Daenerys questions Illyrio's motives, but Viserys insists that the Magister only wants to get in his good graces for when he reclaims the Seven Kingdoms. Daenerys still doesn't trust Illyrio, but knows better than to say anything for fear of making Viserys angry (which he calls "waking the dragon").

    Viserys is preparing to present Daenerys to the Dothraki horselord, Khal Drogo, in the hope that the Khal will take her as his wife in exchange for soldiers to reclaim the throne. He warns Daenerys not to fail him and wake the dragon, twisting one of her nipples for emphasis. Viserys adds that when they write the history of his realm they will say it began this night.

    After Viserys leaves, Daenerys thinks of Westeros, a place she has never seen. She recalls the stories of her brother Crown Prince Rhaegar’s death at the hand of Robert Baratheon, her father King Aerys's murder by the Kingslayer, and her mother and brother's escape to Dragonstone, where her mother died giving birth to her. Daenerys also recalls how she and her brother fled Dragonstone with Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men, who took them to Braavos. There they lived in a big house with a red door and Ser Willem was always kind to her. But when Ser Willem died, the servants stole what money was left and they were put out of the house. Since then they have wandered, with Viserys keeping them moving in fear of the Usurper’s assassins. Near the end of her reverie, Dany reflects on how Viserys, now known as the Beggar King behind his back, has become obsessed with recovering his throne, while she only wants her childhood back.

    Illyrio's servants come to bathe Daenerys and prepare her for her meeting with Khal Drogo. She is intended to marry Drogo, though she has always assumed she would marry her brother like the Targaryens always have. The servants tell her how lucky she is to marry a man so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars. Once she is properly dressed, her brother returns with Magister Illyrio. Viserys commands her to stand up and turn around. Illyrio showers Daenerys with compliments while Viserys complains she is too skinny and too young. Illyrio reassures him that she is old enough for the Khal and comments on her silver-gold hair and purple eyes, the hallmarks of old Valyrian nobility. When Viserys states that barbarians are said to have queer tastes such as boys and sheep, Illyrio warns him not to say these things to the Khal, creating a flare of anger in Viserys’ eyes.

    The three of them journey in Illyrio's litter to Khal Drogo's manse in the pitch dark. Viserys states that 10,000 Dothraki screamers will be enough when combined with those that are just awaiting his return to overthrow the usurper. He speculates on those who would join their cause--House Tyrell, House Redwyne, House Darry, House Greyjoy, and the Dornishmen. Illyrio assures Viserys that the Seven Kingdoms secretly await his return, though Daenerys doubts him.

    Illyrio says that the horselords' mansion was a gift from the magisters of Pentos, to help win the Khal's friendship. They arrive at the mansion and are announced as King Viserys and Princess Daenerys. Illyrio points out several prominent guests, including Ser Jorah Mormont, who has fled the Seven Kingdoms under sentence of death and spent much time among the Dothraki.

    Illyrio then points out Khal Drogo himself, who is as graceful as a panther, and younger than Daenerys would have thought. Viserys notes his long braid, which means he has never been defeated in combat. Daenerys, who notes a cold hard face, is afraid of him and asks to go home, provoking a rant from Viserys about why they can’t go home because it has been taken away from them. Daenerys meant their rooms in Illyrio’s estate, but none of the places they have stayed in have been Viserys' home. Viserys also assures Daenerys that he would let Khal Drogo's whole khalasar, including their horses, rape her if it won him back the Seven Kingdoms. Then Viserys tells her to stop crying, because Illyrio is leading Khal Drogo over to meet them. Daenerys stops crying, stands up straight, and smiles.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_3


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    I found it interesting how in Catelyn's chapter it really emphasises her difference to the Starks and the Northeners. It sets up the Starks in opposition to the Lannisters nicely. Their contempt for Cersei is tangible in the way they call her 'the Lannister woman'.

    I was also struck by the image of the Direwolf slain by the Stag and the symbolism of this, it was pertinent to see the same conclusion reached by Catelyn (the sigil of the Baratheons slaying the sigil of the Starks), although I think it is a testiment to the strength of the relationship between Ned and Robert that she did not mention her reservations to her husband.

    Nice juxtaposition of the old Gods and the new- I think that Catelyns distinction between the deities and their place and manner of worship also serves as an illustration of the character and outlook of the Northerners as opposed to the Southerners.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »
    but i wonder why it was Theon who brought forward Ice. Theon is a ward, not a squire nor a servant.

    It's mentioned later that hostages/wards like Theon are usually trained as squires. But I get the impression that the North doesn't seem to really have squires, or knights for that matter. So in the absence of a formal squiring program which means he isn't actually a squire, he does seem to do some of the duties of one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Really felt for Danys in this chapter- she is so young! She seems like a lost child dressed up and paraded about.

    Still you can see her mettle coming through- she is a better judge of character than Viserys, who seems completely enamoured with the idea of his rightful kingship and seemingly blind to the workings of the world around him. By contrast Danys listens to what people say and questions their motivation beyond their words. I also think that her queenly bearing and bravery comes out in the last line of the chapter, when she smiles and stands straight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭iamanengine


    You get a great sense of the vast differences between life in the North and life in the South in Catelyn's chapter. I'm loving all the extra information in the book's as opposed to the tv series which is what I was looking for really. It's a great testament to the book that it's still a great read knowing what happens.

    Poor ol Dany, it's great the contrast between how she started out as opposed to where she is know, on reading her chapter you really get a sense of hopelessness. Had forgotten how much of a d*ck Viscerys was!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    I didn't get the chance to post about Catelyn's chapter yesterday, but reading it I noticed that she really isn't at home in Winterfell. She hasn't accepted Ned's old gods, while he has at least accommodated hers by building a sept. I liked the commentary as well about the Stark words, how they are simply 'Winter is Coming', that they don't reflect honour & glory like the other houses, the Starks face the reality of the world instead.

    One thing that I want to make note of for future reading, we know Jon follows the old gods because of where he says his vows for the watch, but I can't remember do the rest of the children follow the old gods or new gods, or is it even mentioned. If any one remembers, I don't want to know :) It's something I'm looking forward to discovering again later on in the books.


    _________________________________________

    We then move from Winterfell, across the sea to Pentos to meet Daenerys and Viserys.

    Again in this chapter, there's mention of a third religion, the red priests.

    Daenerys comes across to me in this chapter as quite sensible for her 13 years. She yearns more for a home, than for the land of Westeros, a land which she has never known. Whereas Viserys comes across almost as frenzied in his need to take back Westeros, and in needing to be placated at almost every turn by Magister Ilyrio. Another sign of Dany's sensibility, she doesn't trust Ilyrio and doesn't really believe his words that the people of Westeros are praying for the day that their true king returns home. She sees him for what he is I think, a man who is out for profit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Chapter 4 – Eddard 1

    The King's party, three hundred strong, rides into Winterfell. Ned recognizes Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Prince Joffrey, and Sandor Clegane, but doesn't recognize his old friend King Robert, a huge bearded man (6.5 feet) flanked by two knights in snow white cloaks of the Kingsguard, until Robert calls out. He is shocked to see Robert has gained 8 stone (112 lbs) since the last time they saw each other nine years before when they joined forces to deal with Balon Greyjoy, who had proclaimed himself king of the Iron Islands. Ned pays obeisance as Queen Cersei and the younger children debark from the wheelhouse. After the formalities of greeting (including the presentation of the children from both parties), Robert insists on being taken down to the crypt to pay his respects where the dead of House Stark are buried. Queen Cersei objects.

    Ned asks Robert about his travel, and Robert complains of the distance that has to be traveled in the vast emptiness of the North. Robert talks about the advantages of living in the south, telling Ned he has to see the wonders, the warmth, and the undress of the women. They descend into the crypt, which is an effort for the out-of-shape Robert.

    Robert wants to visit the tomb of Ned's sister Lyanna Stark, who was his betrothed. They pass the dead of house Stark with statues in front of the crypts, each lord holding a sword on his lap. They arrive at the last of the occupied crypts waiting for the future dead of House Stark. Here there are three tombs for Ned’s father Lord Rickard Stark, Ned’s elder brother Brandon Stark and his sister Lyanna. Robert tells Ned that he should have buried her on a sunny hillside, but Ned explains that she was a Stark of Winterfell and belongs here, and that it was her wish. Ned remembers her dying, and his friend Howland Reed being nearby while Robert recalls taking his vengeance on Rhaegar Targaryen for what he did to her, regretting only getting to kill him once. Ned says they should return, his wife will be waiting. Robert replies the Others take his wife, and they start back.

    As they return, Ned asks about Jon Arryn, and Robert says that he had never seen a man die so quickly, within a fortnight. Ned asks about how Jon's widow is bearing under the grief, telling Robert that Catelyn fears for her sister. Robert confides that he thinks Jon’s death has driven her mad and that she has taken her son back to the Eyrie. Robert had hoped to foster the sickly boy with Tywin Lannister, but Lysa refused to hear of it and left in the dead of night; Cersei was furious. Ned, who does not trust Tywin, is relieved. Ned asks to foster Robert Arryn himself, but Tywin has already agreed and Ned taking him as a ward would be a risk of offending Tywin.

    Ned comments that Robert should visit the wall, but Robert responds that he has more important issues: He has to replace Lord Arryn, including several important positions such as Warden of the East. Ned tells Robert that that title goes with the domain of the Arryns. Robert states that Robert Arryn will not be Warden of the East since he is only a 6-year old boy. Ned tells Robert that during times of peace this is only an honor. The king is not pleased -- the son is not the father, and maybe when the boy is grown, the title will be given back. He says that he needs another Hand of the King, and he offers the position to Ned where he can again be at his side. Then the King tells Ned how the responsibilities bore him and that he is surrounded by flatterers and fools. He says he wants Ned to come south to King's Landing to be Hand of the King, the second most important man in the kingdom.

    Ned does not want the position. Even Robert recognizes that this is not a pleasant position, relating the low-born's saying that “the King eats and the Hand takes the ****.” Robert asks for at least a smile and Ned responds that it is said to be so cold in the North that a man's laughter freezes in his throat and chokes him to death.

    King Robert offers to marry Sansa Stark (only 11) to Prince Joffrey, to join the Houses of Stark and Baratheon as he and Lyanna might have done. Ned hesitates to make this decision, wishing to speak to his wife, but Robert asks him not to take too long. Ned is filled with a sense of foreboding, knowing that Winterfell is where he belongs, and winter is coming.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_4


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