300,000 emigrated in past 4 years

The Backwards Man

Wicklowandy wrote: »

A 73 yr old man lives 100 yards from me. 6 years ago he had 5 children and 11 grandchildren living within a few miles. They've all had to leave for work.

So telling him that there's no such thing as emigration etc. doesnt really cut it.

A great experience for someone with few ties, or no care about the ties they have, for a couple of years, or forever.

I don't feel that your line of argument makes any attempt to look at the bigger picture:)

And I know a man who lives next door to his grandkids and rarely if ever sees them. So what?

People have migrated since the dawn of time, the biggest difference now is that the world is a lot smaller now than ever before.

SEPT 23 1989

One of the main reasons for me staying here is that my kids can see their grandparents as often as they like which i think is very important

i know this is not an option for everybody

FTA69

I'd even argue that there is no such thing as emigration any more. Just longer commutes.

You could but you'd be wrong.

Leaving Ireland to build a new life in a different country is emigration no matter what kind of spin you put on it. I left Ireland two years ago after coming out of college with absolutely zero prospects of getting a job. Having moved to London I worked a series of pub jobs, did an internship and finally landed a decent job with good career prospects and a decent wage. I've been home three times in that space (once every 6-9 months about).

Commuting is when you travel from one destination to another and return on a regular basis. London isn't just where I work. It's where many of my friends are, it's where my partner lives and where we live together. It's where my social life and where my boxing gym is. It's the place I will end up buying a property in. It's the city where we vote and pay our taxes. I save my money with an English bank. In other words, it's where I live.

London isn't a place I fly every few weeks to do a job, it may be only a short flight away but it's a vastly different place to Cork.

To compare years spend trying to build a career and a life abroad to driving from Kildare to Dublin is b*llocks to be honest. No matter how much Facebook or Skype you have the fact is that you are divorced from your previous life and that's a process that will only deepen the longer you are away. After a few years you will only have contact with a couple of friends and your immediate family. The notion that Skype or Ryanair keeps you as plugged in as if you were living at home is absurd.

Dempsey

Wicklowandy wrote: »

A 73 yr old man lives 100 yards from me. 6 years ago he had 5 children and 11 grandchildren living within a few miles. They've all had to leave for work.

So telling him that there's no such thing as emigration etc. doesnt really cut it.

A great experience for someone with few ties, or no care about the ties they have, for a couple of years, or forever.

I don't feel that your line of argument makes any attempt to look at the bigger picture:)

You'd think one of the children would have brought their elderly father with them.

gurramok

seamus wrote: »

As it stands, the overall size of the labour force has been largely unchanged over the last 4 years, so the net migration must be quite small. There has been a population increase of ~220k people over 15 years of age, but the number of people in full time study has increase by 210k meaning that basically everyone who leaves school is going into further education rather than into the workforce. Which is a good thing.

Latest stats
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/2012/popmig_2012.pdf
Young adults have emigrated while the rest of us(kids and over 30's) get older.

Population of those aged between 15 and 30 has declined by 115k between 2006 and 2012

About 136k of that 300k who emigrated since 2009 were Irish.

pabloh999

The Backwards Man wrote: »

In 1850 it was a heartbreaking move, not in 2013.

I'd even argue that there is no such thing as emigration any more. Just longer commutes.

Thats pretty ridiculous!!

paddy147

Eamon Gilmore said in Leinster House this morning that hes helping the young people of Ireland to get jobs.

Sure you are Eamon.:rolleyes::pac:



It was put to him about 300,000 people gone from our shores,and many more who leave every week.


He just ignored that completely.:eek::mad:

The Backwards Man

FTA69 wrote: »

You could but you'd be wrong.

Leaving Ireland to build a new life in a different country is emigration no matter what kind of spin you put on it. I left Ireland two years ago after coming out of college with absolutely zero prospects of getting a job. Having moved to London I worked a series of pub jobs, did an internship and finally landed a decent job with good career prospects and a decent wage. I've been home three times in that space (once every 6-9 months about).

Commuting is when you travel from one destination to another and return on a regular basis. London isn't just where I work. It's where many of my friends are, it's where my partner lives and where we live together. It's where my social life and where my boxing gym is. It's the place I will end up buying a property in. It's the city where we vote and pay our taxes. I save my money with an English bank. In other words, it's where I live.

London isn't a place I fly every few weeks to do a job, it may be only a short flight away but it's a vastly different place to Cork.

To compare years spend trying to build a career and a life abroad to driving from Kildare to Dublin is b*llocks to be honest. No matter how much Facebook or Skype you have the fact is that you are divorced from your previous life and that's a process that will only deepen the longer you are away. After a few years you will only have contact with a couple of friends and your immediate family. The notion that Skype or Ryanair keeps you as plugged in as if you were living at home is absurd.

If you substituted Donegal for London in your post would you still consider it emigration?
To me, there is no difference.

eviltwin

I'd love to leave tbh. But my other half is the only one of his family still here and his mum is elderly so we feel under pressure to stay. I know his siblings worry about her and hate being away so the grass isn't greener for them.

paddy147

When a person HAS to leave their country to find work and a new life,then that is emmigration.

Whether its in Europe of the other side of the world...its emmigration.

The Backwards Man

paddy147 wrote: »

When a person HAS to leave their country to find work and a new life,then that is emmigration.

Whether its in Europe of the other side of the world...its emmigration.

Is it?

My brother works for a Swedish company, in China, and he lives in Brazil. He doesn't consider himself an emigrant.

paddy147

RTE Lunchtime News right now...


National Youth Council of Ireland Emmigration Poll






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration


Lack of employment or entrepreneurial opportunities
Lack of political or religious rights
Persecution or intolerance based on race, religion, sex or sexual orientation
Lack of freedom to choose religion, or to choose no religion
Shortage of farmland; hard to start new farms (historically)
Oppressive legal/political conditions
Struggling or Failing economy
Military draft, warfare
Famine or drought
Cultural fights with other cultural groups
Expulsion by armed force or coercion

jank

The vast majority of these are on temp visas with no prospect of staying unless of course they are in the EU.

Cody Pomeray

jank wrote: »

The vast majority of these are on temp visas with no prospect of staying unless of course they are in the EU.

because no Irish emigrants stay and work abroad without a visa?

Leftist

Wicklowandy wrote: »

A 73 yr old man lives 100 yards from me. 6 years ago he had 5 children and 11 grandchildren living within a few miles. They've all had to leave for work.

So telling him that there's no such thing as emigration etc. doesnt really cut it.

Why does it need to 'cut it'?

His grandchildren chose to emigrate. Unless they are of a vast minority of those who can't afford to live in ireland.

FTA69

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If you substituted Donegal for London in your post would you still consider it emigration?
To me, there is no difference.

No it would be migration because I'm moving to a different part of the same country. Emigration is migration which involves moving abroad.

Even if I did move from Cork to Donegal and settled down there that wouldn't be "commuting" as you called it so it's a moot point.

My aunt has lived here for over 20 years and has three children here. The notion that she is on an extended "commute" for two decades is nonsense.

FTA69

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

because no Irish emigrants stay and work abroad without a visa?

As well as the fact that those in skilled trades or certain professions in demand can get residence in Australia. Even those who aren't can get sponsored by a company if they're eager enough to get it done. I know plenty of people in Australia who are out there for the long haul.

Not everybody going there is interested in a year-long p*ss up in the Cock and Bull.

con___manx1

i have lived in canada and oz the last couple of years. im back home lookin for work at the moment. i dont want to leave again but i might have to.

desertcircus

The wrench of emigration is less brutal than it used to be, but it's not gone completely. I have three cousins who've moved to Canada; two have effectively become Canadian and don't expect to come back barring holidays. The third could very easily go that way. They can stay in touch with family, but it's not the same. For some people, that's not a problem, but there are huge numbers who find it a wrench. There are a thousand small differences, and they can add up to make a person feel very far from home.

Cody Pomeray

seamus wrote: »

As it stands, the overall size of the labour force has been largely unchanged over the last 4 years, so the net migration must be quite small.

And that itself is an unsound conclusion.

You don't know how many of the emigrants were part of the labour force. College graduates , school leavers, and even the unemployed who had given up looking for work would often not be included as being in the labour force.

hfallada

Even during the boom Irish people still emigrated to get better jobs else where so we always had emigration.

Still something like 50,000 people are immigrating into Ireland every year. So there is only a net migration of 30,000 per year. One of the reasons why Ireland did so well during the celtic tiger was that Irish who emigrated learned skills they could never in Ireland and gained business ideas aboard.

ilovesleep

I have family - siblings, that emigrated and 2 more that are and will be leaving. They have no other option but to leave. Work is just not here. Out of 5 I'll be last one. I so badly want to go to. As for where, I don't know. Staying at home I don't see my life progressing and in 10 years time if I continue to live at home being alone and single, working or not working. I know so many people, when at home nothing worked for them relationship wise and now many are shacked up and due to be married. Where as if they were at home nothing would have worked for them. Emirgration is good. It helps people in many ways but it can hurt those left behind. Broken families. Parents aging alone. Things like that.

ilovesleep

300,000 is a fierce amount of people to leave. There are approximately 450,000 people unemployed here in this country, although that figure includes all those on social welfare payments be it lone parent allowance, disabilty payment, etc. Without emigration that figure would be much higher.

We have approximately 4 million people here in Ireland. Approx. 2 million adults. Without emigration we'd have appoximaxely 800,000 supported by the state. What percentage is that? 30% at a guess.

We're just as fcuked as spain and other pigs countries.

Something that came up in the news last week is that throughout the eurozone there is 19 million unemployed.

KyussBishop

Unless things significantly change politically in this country, will probably end up emigrating myself regardless of economic conditions; just not in a right position to at the moment.

With this too, we are still only in the first half of the crisis, which we may not turn the corner from until the end of the decade, so how many more people are we going to lose? How many skilled people that we are putting through college, that the success of our future economy depends on, will leave and be working elsewhere, by the end of the decade?

This is part of the actual human cost all the austerity advocates trivialize, usually because they themselves will personally be sitting comfortable, relatively insulated from the crisis.


Throughout Europe, we have loads of unemployed people (who increasingly are emigrating), lots of idle industry and resources, and lots of useful public projects that these people and resources can be put to work on (providing a real boost to economies).
The current output of our economies, versus the full potential output of our economies, leaves an enormous output gap, and this is potential effort that is lost forever, every day that this goes on.

This insane situation, is how austerity advocates say economies should be run; money, instead of being used to make economies run at maximum efficiency (i.e. using up all labour, not wasting labour/potential-effort through unemployment), is used to hinder economies instead, by giving sole control of money to private banks, and artificially restricting the availability of money (which is currently based entirely on debt, even though this makes economies inherently unstable over time, and benefits only finance/banking).

It loses sight totally, of the real economy made up of people (labour) and resources/industry, and instead focuses on the 'shadow' economy, made up of finance/banking/money/debt, and prioritizes making politics favour benefits for the shadow economy (which just so happens to enrich many monetarily/politically influential people working in the shadow economy), instead of making politics favour benefits in the real economy (which benefits all of society).


The more I read/learn about this, the more it looks like an outright class war, because the people who have benefited from this crisis, and those who benefit from holding the crisis in place, are by and large those in finance and big business (particularly the executive class within business/finance - less so those lower down in those industries), who are looking to become wealthy on the back of the crisis, or who already are wealthy and are looking to expand their wealth by holding the crisis in place.

It makes me extremely cynical, towards a lot of the people defending austerity, who just-so-happen to have largely undisclosed conflicts-of-interest, by being directly involved with such industry, where their paycheck may either depend on, or may be enhanced, by parroting and sticking to the austerity agenda.

Currently, these people largely try to control and restrict debate on this topic, trying to limit it within the bounds of austerity (and usually have a sneering/condescending tone to anyone presenting alternatives, because they know they can't win debates on purely rational argument); they succeed at limiting debate like this too, and it really needs to be fought against much harder, because actual impetus to change won't occur (among the wider population), until the austerity narrative is overpowered, and alternatives widely discussed without the debate being muddied.

Grayson

To be fair, Irelands a depressing ****hole at the moment. I honestly never wanted to be one of those people who died within 10 miles of where I was born. And in this atmosphere it's even more of an incentive to go.

And even if the economy changed, I don't think I'd stay. Celtic tiger ireland was crappy too. Sure there were loads of jobs and money, but it was a horrible place to be.

I imagine I will eventually come back to ireland and settle down. For all my griping, it's not that bad. But jesus, who can blame anyone for wanting to get out of here for a few years.

Grayson

ilovesleep wrote: »

I have family - siblings, that emigrated and 2 more that are and will be leaving. They have no other option but to leave. Work is just not here. Out of 5 I'll be last one. I so badly want to go to. As for where, I don't know. Staying at home I don't see my life progressing and in 10 years time if I continue to live at home being alone and single, working or not working. I know so many people, when at home nothing worked for them relationship wise and now many are shacked up and due to be married. Where as if they were at home nothing would have worked for them. Emirgration is good. It helps people in many ways but it can hurt those left behind. Broken families. Parents aging alone. Things like that.

It's not even that work isn't available. I know plenty of people with jobs who left. Thery could go away for a few years and have a better standard of living and manage to save. When they come back (And most will) they'll have more experience and a nest egg. Meanwhile those that stay are finding that no matter how much experience or qualifications they get, they're still stuck in the same job. Since there's so few jobs out there, there's next to no mobility any more.

UCDVet

Grayson wrote: »

It's not even that work isn't available. I know plenty of people with jobs who left. Thery could go away for a few years and have a better standard of living and manage to save. When they come back (And most will) they'll have more experience and a nest egg. Meanwhile those that stay are finding that no matter how much experience or qualifications they get, they're still stuck in the same job. Since there's so few jobs out there, there's next to no mobility any more.

I would have to agree with this.

I could move abroad and get a similar job, only I would get paid more, pay less in taxes, and enjoy a lower cost of living.

armaghbhoy

I have thought about emigrating but that means starting a whole new life not knowing anyone in a big city which I would probably get lost in. Theres no place like home really, no matter how bad you think it is. Some things are pretty depressing in this place and seeing it all the time makes you tired of it. Although I don't plan on emigrating now I'm still thinking that in the future maybe I could move to the countryside where I could appreciate things a bit more and have peace and quiet from the usual stuff.

periodictable

Any youngster I chat to I advise them to get the hell out of this country either once they get a 3rd level qualification or if they plan to just go on the dole after school.
There is NOTHING in the country to recommend it to anyone, save the scenery, perhaps and many decent folk, but you cannot make a living from those.
Taxes are raised to pay foreign banks and hedge funds for the debts of private business. Why should anyone work to pay these people, and to support the pensions of corrupt politicians,useless civil servants, and to maintain the status quo?
I estimate that up to 70% of the population is in one form or another dependent for an income on the state...money for public housing "sorry sir I don't like that house, I want to live over there", money to furnish houses, to buy clothes, medical cards all over the place, endless free legal aid.....nobody should work to pay for another person's lifestyle.
Leave this failed state. Make your life elsewhere where you will advance through merit, not who you voted for, played for or who your Daddy knows. The world is your oyster and your whole life is ahead of you. Get a one way ticket and don't bother coming back.

Grayson

UCDVet wrote: »

I would have to agree with this.

I could move abroad and get a similar job, only I would get paid more, pay less in taxes, and enjoy a lower cost of living.

I'll probably be leaving in a years time. I have so many friends who are telling me great things about living abroad.
In a year I'll have my masters and my options are

1) Stay here in a crappy job and spend the next 10 years paying off a student loan.

2) Go away and get some experience. Plus earn enough to be debt free in 6 months.

It's not even the taxes here. It's just that your education and experience is valued so much more abroad.