Taxi rank - bumper to bumper

Spook_ie

rainbowdash wrote: »

From rulesoftheroad.ie:


General rules for parking
Where possible, park in the direction of traffic flow.
Park close to and parallel with the kerb or edge of the road except at any location where perpendicular or angled parking bays are marked out on the surface of the road.
Where a parking bay is marked out on a road you must park your vehicle fully within the parking space.
Apply the handbrake.
Switch off the engine.
Leave the vehicle in first gear or reverse, or in the case of an automatic, select P.
Before opening any doors, check for other road users nearby, in particular motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians.
Open your doors only when you need to and keep them open only for as long as necessary.
Get out of your vehicle only when it is safe and you and your passengers are not blocking other road users.
Passengers should exit on the kerbside.
Lock your vehicle as you leave it.

Not parked, you can't park on a rank

Spook_ie

foggy_lad wrote: »

But Taxis are not parked they are placed on a rank for the purpose of plying for hire.

Correct

I would get out of any vehicle driven by you if you left no gap or only a few inches between the vehicle in front at traffic lights.

Your perogative as long as you pay the amount showing on the meter

And part of their business is taking on passengers who will often need access to the rear of the vehicle with luggage, and leaving the rank, Why would they prevent themselves from doing this unless they were being instructed in some kind of obstruction designed to counteract statements from the office of the regulator empowering passengers to pick ANY taxi on a rank even the last one as they must take you as long as you are not steaming drunk or covered in filth...

How they work it or not work it is not the subject the subject is ( as you said earlier ) that it is illegal to park nose to tail, it isn't

So it's articulated trucks stopping in loading bays now, how about sticking to the basics and how taxis not leaving space between their vehicle and the vehicle in front not just obstructing pedestrians it is also just thoughtless and plain ignorant of those drivers.

I have stuck to basics until such time as people constantly say it's illegal when it's not, I just cite other cases that prove it, it is not illegal to be nose to tail in a taxi rank.

I even provided the statistics of the length of the rank versus the length of 11 Avenisis Taxis + a 20cm Space between each one

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO SITE THE TAXIS NOSE TO TAIL INDEED THE ONLY WAY TO FIT THEM ON THE RANK IS NOSE TO TAIL

Now if you select a taxi from the middle, how they satisfy your request is up to them, they still wouldn't be illegally ranked until such time as they refused to provide a legitimate request for service, where upon you would be entitled to report them to the NTA for refusal of service ( Not report them for being nose to tail! ) if it gets you your taxi of choice would seem to be doubtful

You could even ask a GS representative to ask the driver to remove them from the rank for failing to provide a service, again if it would get you your taxi of choice would seem to be doubtful

monument

Everybody relax please!

Spook_ie wrote: »

Very entertaining and indeed humerous, now perhaps the context of taxis using a taxi rank might enter it, rather than a half dozen limosuines on a normal street

You said people should try to report the offence to the gardai and his point highlights how uninterested some gardai are in keeping roads clear.

I don't blame the gardai, and less so individual members, but there's a problem with the system of enforcement. It seems to go back to the time when councils took over parking control and from that point the problem of parking and related issue seem to have gotten a lot worse.

It's got so bad that any garda trying to change things is

Spook_ie wrote: »

But the rank isn't a part of the road as stated in the bye laws

Bylaws don't control what is or isn't part of a road -- national law does and as Victor said: The law on obstruction covers the road from boundary to boundary.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

To cross the a road safely you use a designated crossing point which a taxi rank isnt.

That's (1) highly ill-informed or (b) trolling.

People are allowed to and it is often safe to cross outside a "designated crossing point" -- in fact, drivers and cyclists having little respect for crossing points and taxis often blocking the "designated crossing points" in the city centre, crossing away from marked crossing can often be safer.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Get onto the council and ask them to remove railings at the side of the road as they hinder the passage of pedestrians.
Seriously Tina, are you on a wind up?

BTW: National guidance on urban streets recommends the removal of pedestrian guard rails -- in any case, such guard rails are normally only in the area where it is illegal to cross, directly beside a signaled crossing.

corktina wrote: »

nope, no intention, the law on obstructing the highway is well known.

corktina wrote: »

na na ne na na:p

It's not that well known, and you can leave out the na na na na next time.

Hilly Bill

"That's (1) highly ill-informed or (b) trolling."

"People are allowed to and it is often safe to cross outside a "designated crossing point" -- in fact, drivers and cyclists having little respect for crossing points and taxis often blocking the "designated crossing points" in the city centre, crossing away from marked crossing can often be safer."

Im well aware where people are allowed to cross but the point being the designated crossing point is the safest which there is one just by the taxi rank in question. How is that ill-informed or trolling?????

On the subject of trolling ,

"Finally: Never mention trolling in threads "

Your own words.

rainbowdash

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not parked, you can't park on a rank

Please read posts 115 and 128 again, corktina is clearly speaking about the general parking and specifically parking very close together, rather than just the taxi situation, and this is what I was referring to.

Spook_ie

rainbowdash wrote: »

Please read posts 115 and 128 again, corktina is clearly speaking about the general parking and specifically parking very close together, rather than just the taxi situation, and this is what I was referring to.

But the whole thread has turned into to the illegality of the taxi drivers on the Aston Quay rank being nose to tail on the rank, nowhere other than in Corktinas meandering has the subject of 11 cars being parked nose to tail other than on Aston Quay been raised.

Now the original point still stands the taxis on the rank aren't parked as you can't park on a rank, therefore as the vehicles are in use they aren't forming an obstruction, as alluded to in the post about vehicles pulling up at traffic lights, they wouldn't be construed as forming an obstruction.

Now nowhere am i saying that any vehicles standing plying for hire other than on a designated rank wouldn't be construed as forming an obstruction, but on a rank they aren't forming an obstruction as that is the designed intention of a rank, somewhere for taxis to queue whilst waiting for customers

Spook_ie

monument wrote: »

Everybody relax please!



You said people should try to report the offence to the gardai and his point highlights how uninterested some gardai are in keeping roads clear.

I don't blame the gardai, and less so individual members, but there's a problem with the system of enforcement. It seems to go back to the time when councils took over parking control and from that point the problem of parking and related issue seem to have gotten a lot worse.

It's got so bad that any garda trying to change things is




Bylaws don't control what is or isn't part of a road -- national law does and as Victor said: The law on obstruction covers the road from boundary to boundary.




That's (1) highly ill-informed or (b) trolling.

People are allowed to and it is often safe to cross outside a "designated crossing point" -- in fact, drivers and cyclists having little respect for crossing points and taxis often blocking the "designated crossing points" in the city centre, crossing away from marked crossing can often be safer.




BTW: National guidance on urban streets recommends the removal of pedestrian guard rails -- in any case, such guard rails are normally only in the area where it is illegal to cross, directly beside a signaled crossing.





It's not that well known, and you can leave out the na na na na next time.

Point 1 The post wasn't about taxi ranks or even normaly parked vehicles but a state or semi state visit by a visiting dignatory, the Gardas concern would have been the security of the visitor not the inclinations of a bus driver seemingly intent on disrupting security concerns for a visiting dignitory, agreed that the incident was avoidable as the bus should have been stopped earlier

Point 2 The designated crossing point at Aston Quay isn't part of the rank, the subject is primarily the queuing of vehicles IN the RANK at Aston Quay, not the illegality of taxis forming non official ranks elsewhere.

Point 3 Yet another mention of national laws covering the obstruction of roads but no mention of source, beginning to be a bit like the Loch Ness Monster, lots of beleivers but no proof

monument

Hilly Bill wrote: »

"That's (1) highly ill-informed or (b) trolling."

"People are allowed to and it is often safe to cross outside a "designated crossing point" -- in fact, drivers and cyclists having little respect for crossing points and taxis often blocking the "designated crossing points" in the city centre, crossing away from marked crossing can often be safer."

Im well aware where people are allowed to cross but the point being the designated crossing point is the safest which there is one just by the taxi rank in question. How is that ill-informed or trolling?????

On the subject of trolling ,

"Finally: Never mention trolling in threads "

Your own words.

And if you repeat my words while I'm modding again (which I clearly was when I said never mention trolling), you'll see your self taking a break from the forum. Discssion on modration is not allowed.

You somehow missed the "Do not reply to this public service message!" at the end of the same post and the often repeated message of never reply to moderation in thread.... don't reply to that or anything in this post.

im invisible

dont know 'bout you guys, but i just cross where theres room to cross, and it's safe to do so...

Victor

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/public_order_offenses_in_ireland.html

Wilful obstruction

Under Section 9 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 anyone without legal authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place shall be guilty of an offence. The penalty for this offence is a class E fine.

This section was created in order to protect the constitutional rights of the individual to pass and re-pass on a public highway. While the Gardai have no power of arrest under this Section they can invoke the powers of Section 7 of the Act and direct any person to desist from the obstruction in question. Failure to comply with that direction is an offence.

Spook_ie wrote: »

But the rank isn't a part of the road as stated in the bye laws

How do you work this out? 'Road' is from boundary to boundary.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am quite certain that An Garda Siochana would take a very firm no-nonsense approach to the blocking of a major National Route in this manner....;)....would'nt they....

Your point stands, but there are no more national routes in the city centre since last year. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0053.html

100% Blame in this instance however, to DCC and the NTA

Strictly a DCC matter - ranks are decided by councillors, although I suppose the NTA could do some encouraging.

Spook_ie wrote: »

I'm driving along the road, the lights at a junction turn red and the car in front slows and stops, I follow,slow and stop behind him leaving a gap of 30 cm or so, the next car following me slows and stops leaving a similar gap and so on for 11 cars, are we obstructing the highway?

Possibly. It would definitely be foolish in the event a truck rear-ends number 11.

valerossi wrote: »

You can you have the right to choose the service you want to avail of, however some taxis won't take you if their is another one in front.

Not an entitlement that the taxi drivers have.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Get onto the council and ask them to remove railings at the side of the road as they hinder the passage of pedestrians.

The railings are not obstructing the road, they are part of the road (not 'roadway') and tend to be specifically designed to stop people crossing at that point.

Spook_ie wrote: »

How they work it or not work it is not the subject the subject is ( as you said earlier ) that it is illegal to park nose to tail, it isn't

...

Now if you select a taxi from the middle, how they satisfy your request is up to them, they still wouldn't be illegally ranked until such time as they refused to provide a legitimate request for service, where upon you would be entitled to report them to the NTA for refusal of service ( Not report them for being nose to tail! ) if it gets you your taxi of choice would seem to be doubtful

You could even ask a GS representative to ask the driver to remove them from the rank for failing to provide a service, again if it would get you your taxi of choice would seem to be doubtful

It is. The bye-laws can't and don't make legal something that is illegal. Importantly, the taxi behind is impairing assess to the taxi in front (aside form the crossing the street argument), thereby actively being part of the cartel.

I even provided the statistics of the length of the rank versus the length of 11 Avenisis Taxis + a 20cm Space between each one

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO SITE THE TAXIS NOSE TO TAIL INDEED THE ONLY WAY TO FIT THEM ON THE RANK IS NOSE TO TAIL

It's a maximum of 11 vehicles, not a mandatory 11 vehicles.

Spook_ie

Victor wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/public_order_offenses_in_ireland.html


How do you work this out? 'Road' is from boundary to boundary.

Your point stands, but there are no more national routes in the city centre since last year. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0053.html

Strictly a DCC matter - ranks are decided by councillors, although I suppose the NTA could do some encouraging.

Possibly. It would definitely be foolish in the event a truck rear-ends number 11.

Not an entitlement that the taxi drivers have.

The railings are not obstructing the road, they are part of the road (not 'roadway') and tend to be specifically designed to stop people crossing at that point.


It is. The bye-laws can't and don't make legal something that is illegal. Importantly, the taxi behind is impairing assess to the taxi in front (aside form the crossing the street argument), thereby actively being part of the cartel.

It's a maximum of 11 vehicles, not a mandatory 11 vehicles.

ooohb so many points....

Point 1

Wilful obstruction

Under Section 9 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 anyone without legal authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place shall be guilty of an offence. The penalty for this offence is a class E fine.

This section was created in order to protect the constitutional rights of the individual to pass and re-pass on a public highway. While the Gardai have no power of arrest under this Section they can invoke the powers of Section 7 of the Act and direct any person to desist from the obstruction in question. Failure to comply with that direction is an offence.

The bye laws give the legal authority to the taxis to queue on the rank, the bye laws do not specify ( unlike parking bays ) that the vehicle is to be contained in a delineated box but that up to 11 vehicles may be fitted into the declared space ( Specifically talking about Aston Quay here ) when full this would give an overall gap between vehicles of approx. 20cm

How do you work this out? 'Road' is from boundary to boundary.

Point 2
Road as most people would understand the expression is the bit the cars drive on as opposed to the footpath, the rank is in a bay off the road

Possibly. It would definitely be foolish in the event a truck rear-ends number 11.

Point 3,
I never said it wasn't foolish to not leave a gap in moving traffic, just using it as an example that you wouldn't be obstructing traffic flow

It is. The bye-laws can't and don't make legal something that is illegal. Importantly, the taxi behind is impairing assess to the taxi in front (aside form the crossing the street argument), thereby actively being part of the cartel.

Point 4
What cartel, people are just using the rank to it's maximum capacity of 11 vehicles, you're just fishing/trolling there

It's a maximum of 11 vehicles, not a mandatory 11 vehicles.

Point 5
Correct it's a maximum, however given the number of taxis working Dublin there would be fewer times of late when that rank ( any rank ) is not full to capacity, also the original photos posted by Foggy would indicate the rank was at capacity, which brings us squarely back to the original argument, if the rank was at capacity then there would only be a 20 cm gap between the vehicles, to provide a bigger gap would be physically impossible without at least one of the taxis moving off the rank or the last taxi hanging off the back off the rank thereby creating an obstruction ( which several drivers have received tickets and penalty points for, at that location )

corktina

Spook_ie wrote: »

ooohb so many points....

Point 1


The bye laws give the legal authority to the taxis to queue on the rank, the bye laws do not specify ( unlike parking bays ) that the vehicle is to be contained in a delineated box but that up to 11 vehicles may be fitted into the declared space ( Specifically talking about Aston Quay here ) when full this would give an overall gap between vehicles of approx. 20cm

Point 2
Road as most people would understand the expression is the bit the cars drive on as opposed to the footpath, the rank is in a bay off the road

Point 3,
I never said it wasn't foolish to not leave a gap in moving traffic, just using it as an example that you wouldn't be obstructing traffic flow

Point 4
What cartel, people are just using the rank to it's maximum capacity of 11 vehicles, you're just fishing/trolling there

Point 5
Correct it's a maximum, however given the number of taxis working Dublin there would be fewer times of late when that rank ( any rank ) is not full to capacity, also the original photos posted by Foggy would indicate the rank was at capacity, which brings us squarely back to the original argument, if the rank was at capacity then there would only be a 20 cm gap between the vehicles, to provide a bigger gap would be physically impossible without at least one of the taxis moving off the rank or the last taxi hanging off the back off the rank thereby creating an obstruction ( which several drivers have received tickets and penalty points for, at that location )

In British English, highway is primarily a legal term, and normal usage implies roads, while legal usage covers any route or path with a public right of access, including footpaths etc. Taken from Wiki,Irish Law tends to be the same as British in many respects

SB2013

corktina wrote: »

In British English, highway is primarily a legal term, and normal usage implies roads, while legal usage covers any route or path with a public right of access, including footpaths etc. Taken from Wiki,Irish Law tends to be the same as British in many respects

That doesn't mean you should expect to be able to cross at any point you so desire. By that logic even one parked car could constitute an obstruction. In the case of this rank, the "obstruction" requires a pedestrian to walk a maximum of five car lengths if they wish to cross the road. So it is not an obstruction, it is merely an inconvenience. And there is no law which requires people to leave space between them and the car in front when stopped.

corktina

SB2013 wrote: »

That doesn't mean you should expect to be able to cross at any point you so desire. By that logic even one parked car could constitute an obstruction. In the case of this rank, the "obstruction" requires a pedestrian to walk a maximum of five car lengths if they wish to cross the road. So it is not an obstruction, it is merely an inconvenience. And there is no law which requires people to leave space between them and the car in front when stopped.

i wasn't claiming it meant that, I was simply commenting on the definition of "highway".

A maximum of 5 cars is not correct as it depends on the situation at either end of the 11 cars,it may not be safe to cross at one or both ends

SB2013

corktina wrote: »

i wasn't claiming it meant that, I was simply commenting on the definition of "highway".

A maximum of 5 cars is not correct as it depends on the situation at either end of the 11 cars,it may not be safe to cross at one or both ends

Yet safe to cross in the middle of a row of cars idling?

rainbowdash

More on parking laws:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

This "well known" law, making you leave space between parked cars for pedestrians seems not to exist.

The fact of the matter is that people will leave space by default when parking cars along the street, as they wouldn't be able to get their car out of the space later.

So there is no need for such a law on general parking in the first place as it would be quite rare, or almost impossible to find a scenario or situation where a group of random drivers would have the need to park so tightly behind each other along the street that pedestrians would not be able to walk between them.

monument

Talking about moderation = ban.

Spook_ie

corktina wrote: »

In British English, highway is primarily a legal term, and normal usage implies roads, while legal usage covers any route or path with a public right of access, including footpaths etc. Taken from Wiki,Irish Law tends to be the same as British in many respects

So who's used/using the term highway then?

Anyways if you want to go along that route

England and Wales

The general legal definition deals with right of use not the form of construction; this is distinct from e.g. the popular use of the word in the US. A highway is defined in English common law by a number of similarly-worded definitions such as "a way over which all members of the public have the right to pass and repass without hindrance"[1] usually accompanied by "at all times"; ownership of the ground is for most purposes irrelevant thus the term encompasses all such ways from the widest trunk roads in public ownership to the narrowest footpath providing unlimited pedestrian access over private land. A highway might be open to all forms of lawful land traffic (i.e. vehicular, horse, pedestrian) or limited to specific types of traffic or combinations of types of traffic; usually a highway available to vehicles is available to foot or horse traffic, a highway available to horse traffic is available to pedestrians but exceptions can apply usually in the form of a highway only being available to vehicles or subdivided into dedicated parallel sections for different users. A highway can share ground with a private right of way for which full use is not available to the general public as often will be the case with farm roads which the owner may use for any purpose but for which the general public only has a right of use on foot and/or horseback. The status of highway on most older roads has been gained by established public use while newer roads are typically dedicated as highways from the time they are adopted (taken into the care and control of a council or other public authority). In England and Wales, a public highway is also known as "The Queen's Highway".[2]

The core definition of a highway is modified in various legislation for a number of purposes but only for the specific matters dealt with in each such piece of legislation. This is typically in the case of bridges, tunnels and other structures whose ownership, mode of use and/or availability would otherwise exclude them from the general definition of a highway, examples in recent years are commonly toll bridges and tunnels which have the definition of highway imposed upon them (in a legal order applying only to the individual structure) to allow application of most traffic laws to those using them but without causing all of the general obligations or rights of use otherwise applicable to a highway.

Keep digging I'm sure you'll find this mythical beast you've so often said exists

im invisible

even if there were, say 8 cars, spaced evenly in a rank that could fit 11, i probably wouldn't cross the road in the middle of a taxi rank anyway, maybe thats just me....

trellheim

I checked what the DCC byelaws were and it would seem that the position is as follows :

Every street service vehicle standing for hire at an appointed
stand shall be placed
(a) within the limits of the appointed stand described in column
(3) of Schedule 1, 2 or 3, as appropriate
(b) in the position specified in column (5) of Schedule 1, 2 or 3,
as appropriate, opposite the mention of the appointed stand
in column (3) of the Schedule concerned, and
(c) in case there is no street service vehicle already at the
appointed stand and, in any other case, next in order to the
street service vehicle at the appointed stand and as near as
practicable to the street service vehicle immediately in front.
A street service vehicle standing for hire at an appointed stand
shall be placed in single line by the kerb and parallel to the kerb
or with the rear of the vehicle to the kerb. A vehicle shall not be
placed more than 45 centimeters from the kerb

that sounds like nose to tail to me.....

See for yourself

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/Taxi_Rank_Bye-_Laws_2011_Fina.pdf

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Spook_ie

trellheim wrote: »

I checked what the DCC byelaws were and it would seem that the position is as follows :



that sounds like nose to tail to me.....

See for yourself

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/Taxi_Rank_Bye-_Laws_2011_Fina.pdf

In the absence of any contra legislation ( the loch ness monster of obstructing the highway ) I beleive that as to the legality or otherwise of leaving gaps on ranks that is QED

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

corktina

interesting, and I assume that would also mean that you are effectively compelled to take the first vehicle....or wiat until the one of your choice reaches the front.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

corktina

well at least I've been correct once this weekend!

Victor

trellheim wrote: »

I checked what the DCC byelaws were and it would seem that the position is as follows :



that sounds like nose to tail to me.....

See for yourself

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/Taxi_Rank_Bye-_Laws_2011_Fina.pdf

Fair enough, but I think that can be read a few ways (a) don't park 4 metre apart and halve the capacity of the rank (b) park close to each other, but leave enough space for people and the taxi to get in and out, but I don't think it means park so close that it impairs things.

Spook_ie

corktina wrote: »

interesting, and I assume that would also mean that you are effectively compelled to take the first vehicle....or wiat until the one of your choice reaches the front.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

corktina wrote: »

well at least I've been correct once this weekend!

Wouldn't be so sure on that one, there is still the premise that the customer should be free to select the vehicle of their choice, however, given that the rank is at capacity, would the driver of a vehicle in the middle be able to refuse you service on the grounds of Health and Safety?

That situation wouldn't be as clearcut as if the rank was half empty, a situation I think that will only be resolved when Foggy goes to the full rank to take a car in the middle and then follows up with the NTA.

I suspect that the law would have no option but side with the taxi driver on the grounds of health and safety

Spook_ie

Victor wrote: »

Fair enough, but I think that can be read a few ways (a) don't park 4 metre apart and halve the capacity of the rank (b) park close to each other, but leave enough space for people and the taxi to get in and out, but I don't think it means park so close that it impairs things.

But again when the rank is at capacity the available distance between cars would be around 20cm.

So assuming that the taxi drivers ALL have the right to use the rank, then if the taxis didn't move up to be nose to tail then there would be the risk of someone waiting to get onto the end of the rank causing an obstruction because a driver was too tardy in closing up the gap.

Therefore for the free running of traffic surely far better they go nose tail from the off

Victor

Thread split from Can I refuse the next taxi in the line?

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