Slow uptake of Leap Card - would a minimum €3 cash fare on Dublin Bus help?

bk

etchyed wrote: »

So, am I wrong? I don't deny that using a Leap card can sometimes take a stupidly long time. So I'll defer again to the bus driver(s) here. Would it be faster if 95% of your current cash fare passengers paid with a Leap card, retaining the current fare structure?

I think you would be wrong, even a few cash customers in amongst the leap users would have it switching back to the cash screen thus slowing things down.

Also any speed up would be negligible compared to the gain you would get with either leap card flat fare or tag-on/tag-off. So I honestly don't think it is worth doing just for the sake of boosting leap up take.

This sort of thinking seems to be at the heart of the issues we have with the failed leap card system in the first place.

The goal of the leap card projects seems to be "introduce a contact less card ticketing system because it seems other cool cities have it" with no thought to what the benefit of such cards are.

What the goal of the project should have been is: "reduce boarding times and thus dwell times and simplify ticketing"

Pushing Leap take up just for the sake of it, misses the point of cards like this.

Leap should only be pushed hand in hand with efforts to reduce dwell time and simplify and integrate the whole ticketing system. It should be pushed when we move to either a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off.

Ixflyer you love to push the idea of flat fares requiring an increase in subsidies.

But as I have pointed out, that isn't necessary. A flat fare of €1.45 is possible today based on DB's own figures.

That would be a significant 20 cent to almost €3 saving for the majority of passengers and just a 45 cent increase for child fares.

I remember all this can be down with no loss to the fare box. They would make exactly the same amount of money they do today for the same number of passengers.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that there wouldn't be at least some increase in passenger numbers with prices dropping almost €3 and with it becoming simpler to use and understand and with reduced journey times!

There is very clear evidence that flat fares increase passenger numbers. When they introduced a flat fare in Brighton of £1, an increase over most fares, they actually saw an 8.5% increase in passenger numbers:

http://www.konsult.leeds.ac.uk/private/level2/instruments/instrument044/l2_044c.htm#d

http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/08/24/The+Argus+Archive/6774827.__1_bus_fare_will_stay/

Likewise passenger numbers increased on London Bus since the introduction of their flat fare.

Here is another example of such innovative thinking, a 38% increase in passenger numbers after they introduced a low flat fare:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/may/12/transportintheuk

dowlingm

There used to be zones in Toronto and they were got rid of once the subway reached the suburbs in a few places. You will get a certain resentment in some quarters that the $3 cash/$2.65 token fare is the same for 5 stops as 50 (including transfers to/from other routes/modes)

As for LEAP - I think Londoners would probably tell you Oyster had its own issues and if you pick one card for everywhere then the vendor can name their price and security vulnerabilities can cause panic in multiple places at once. Meanwhile the Toronto regional transport people are rolling out Presto, a bespoke system which they are now imposing on the City's transport system which would rather something else. Presto having had some craptacular failures is not helping.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I think you would be wrong, even a few cash customers in amongst the leap users would have it switching back to the cash screen thus slowing things down.

Also any speed up would be negligible compared to the gain you would get with either leap card flat fare or tag-on/tag-off. So I honestly don't think it is worth doing just for the sake of boosting leap up take.

This sort of thinking seems to be at the heart of the issues we have with the failed leap card system in the first place.

The goal of the leap card projects seems to be "introduce a contact less card ticketing system because it seems other cool cities have it" with no thought to what the benefit of such cards are.

What the goal of the project should have been is: "reduce boarding times and thus dwell times and simplify ticketing"

Pushing Leap take up just for the sake of it, misses the point of cards like this.

Leap should only be pushed hand in hand with efforts to reduce dwell time and simplify and integrate the whole ticketing system. It should be pushed when we move to either a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off.

Ixflyer you love to push the idea of flat fares requiring an increase in subsidies.

But as I have pointed out, that isn't necessary. A flat fare of €1.45 is possible today based on DB's own figures.

That would be a significant 20 cent to almost €3 saving for the majority of passengers and just a 45 cent increase for child fares.

I remember all this can be down with no loss to the fare box. They would make exactly the same amount of money they do today for the same number of passengers.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that there wouldn't be at least some increase in passenger numbers with prices dropping almost €3 and with it becoming simpler to use and understand and with reduced journey times!

There is very clear evidence that flat fares increase passenger numbers. When they introduced a flat fare in Brighton of £1, an increase over most fares, they actually saw an 8.5% increase in passenger numbers:

http://www.konsult.leeds.ac.uk/private/level2/instruments/instrument044/l2_044c.htm#d

http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/08/24/The+Argus+Archive/6774827.__1_bus_fare_will_stay/

Likewise passenger numbers increased on London Bus since the introduction of their flat fare.

Here is another example of such innovative thinking, a 38% increase in passenger numbers after they introduced a low flat fare:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/may/12/transportintheuk

Firstly it's LXflyer - at least get that much right!! ;-)

Secondly, I'd prefer if you didn't personalise this. I'm not trying to "push" anything - I merely stated my opinion.

The introduction of a flat fare in London also coincided with a large increase in subsidies (part funded by the congestion charge) so it's not quite as black and white as you seem to think.

I can't see a flat fare of less than any of the current fares being viable? Where are you getting that figure from?

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I can't see a flat fare of less than any of the current fares being viable? Where are you getting that figure from?

Dublin Bus 2011 annual report.

Plus you ignored my info about the Brighton Bus service which doesn't get a subsidy and yet passenger numbers increased by 8.5% after the introduction of a flat fare.

LXFlyer

I didn't comment on Brighton as I'd need to read up on it first and I've only a relatively brief amount of free wifi in the airport that I'm currently transiting - but I will!

the groutch

I'm surprised there hasnt been any card only buses yet on the major routes at peak times, if the switching from cash to leap and back is such a time eater, just have some buses that they don't take cash at all, eg. every 2nd 46a between 7am and 9am.

Polar101

I think there's definitely something wrong with the system, when I'm required to carry three different kinds of ticket in order to get the optimum fare - I only travel on Dublin Bus. My employer (the useless ****s) stopped doing the TaxSaver scheme, so now I have a Leap card for those single €1.40 journeys, a Travel 90 for two €1.40 journeys and a Rambler ticket for the days when I do more traveling. I'd buy a monthly ticket if it was better value - annual ticket would be nice, but I never have that much money saved up that I could actually buy one.

Bring on the Leap Card with more ticket options, I guess.

LoonyLovegood

The leap system has some serious problems. I have one - it's built into all student travelcards - but I use a rambler instead, as it's cheaper to have a five day rambler than pay two €2.45 fares. If they want to make it work, a flat fare works better - Say €2 for adults, €1 for children, with leap fares being cheaper - perhaps €1.50 and 75c?

dowlingm

It's so ridiculous that the Taxsaver is tied to your employer. I can't see the sense in differentiating between people because one employer is cooperative and the other isn't.

Tar.Aldarion

They are not taken up because the difference is usually about what, 25 cent? It's not a big a gap as it should be to reel people in. It's so slow also. I have one but dont bother using it.

AlekSmart

Stark wrote: »

Pity they seem to be doing their damndest to make that option also unattractive. €25 now for a book of 10!

The situation with the last T90 increase was indeed interesting...The Company had requested an increase of 9.3% from €21.50 to €23.50....However the NTA in a move designed to reduce the increasing popularity of the T90 implimented an increase of 16.28% to €25.00.

So Stark,whilst you are quite correct regarding the pricing policy,you need to be clear as to who is actually calling the shots here....The NTA.

http://nationaltransport.ie.cdn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Consideration-of-applications-to-increase-cash-Leap-and-pre-paid-tickets.pdf

Furthermore, for those customers who use their 10 Journey Travel 90 ticket
(originally conceived
for second or more journeys within 90 minutes)
without interchanging with another bus, it is
now cheaper to use a Leap card for the over 13 stages fare band, e.g.
The Travel 90 adult 10 journey ticket is= €25.00
Whereas,the Over 13 stages Leap fare is €2.45 times 10 journeys = €24.50

I feel it shows an incredible lack of comprehension about what the scope of properly thought out Integrated Ticketing can do,instead with the Cash vs Prepaid split remaining resolutely 50/50,the NTA go off on a tangential attack on Travel 90 users.

foggy_lad

A €3 minimum fare is going to lose more money than it would generate in Leap card revenue and from the exhorbitant fares, most people using the lower fares for short jopurneys are those who can not afford any further rise in fares. if fares increase they will just make alternative arrangements and many will lose an element of independance they have because of the cheaper fares for shorter journeys. think of the thousands of kids attending after school activities and other saturday events as well as the mothers doing shopping trips on the bus. At the moment these people are not causing any delays to boarding/dwell times as they know their fare and always have their change ready, they throw the cash in the chute and grab their ticket and are gone up the steps in a flash.

The leap card is not much use to anyone who uses the bus for shorter journeys as it takes too long and there are too many mistakes so people don't trust it. They must que up to pay cash only now they must present the card to the drivers machine in a particular way or it wont read, they then must wait for some sign from the driver and tell him/her the fare they want and wait for the ticket machine to roar slowly into action and deduct the fare, then they must wait for another signal from the driver that the operation has been a success. A mistake, moving the card or pulling it away too soon will result in extra delays as the driver waits for the machine to reset itself and for the passenger to start the whole sorry set of actions again! some passengers would be quicker walking!

MGWR

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would have to disagree here.

One of the main benefits of the historic Fare Stage system is its inherent ability to cater for as wide a customer requirement as possible.

You will struggle to find a baseline cash fare of €1.65 in an EU major Capital City.

Equally the maximum 13-23 stage fare of €2.80 still compares well with cash fares EU wide.

The greatest difference between Dublin and the Rest of the World is the extent to which Farebox Revenue (ie: CASH) makes up the service providers revenue stream.

This report although dated 2000 outlines the significant disparity in funding, which then carries on into the general lack of regard for our Public Transport Systems in General...

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2567.pdf

96% Farebox vs 4% Subsidy/Grant,we are at this level in somewhat rarefied company, essentially Lady Thatchers UK/Scotland and Norway.

Most other civilized and largely well regarded Urban Public Transport systems hover around the 50/50 split, a figure which if applied to Dublin would, of itself, allow for a significant service improvement.

However, given our continuing native Political pre-occupation with the Public Transport Policies of Lady Thatcher and Nicholas Ridley, any admission that they do not work is unlikely in our lifetime.

Instead we appear stuck with an Administrative System wedded to introducing all manner of high-profile technological advances, but then emasculating these in order to maintain the Status Quo, itself usually firmly embedded in 19th Century practices.

It must be noted that current Government Policy is firmly based upon Public Transport Users paying as close to the actual cost of their service as possible.

This ensures that Irish Public Transport, far from being made to appeal to the masses, is firmly being removed from the list of available options, a policy which, as in the UK, will result in vast numbers of persons entitled to Free Public Transport Use, but with almost NO services available on which to use it .......I doubt very much whether Leo Varadakar and his advisors have taken much interest in the UK's current Public Transport situation, but they really should....;)

But how does the company cater to a wide customer requirement when the fare-stage system narrows the field down? The driver can't keep track of who paid a three-stage fare because he's got to watch the road, and back when there were conductors, there was enough trouble tracking such fare payments as well even with inspectors boarding at random. This is why there were "Minimum Fare" buses in the first place, especially during peak hours, and on these buses the fare system was down to a flat fare system (excepting outer suburban) merely out of need.

I still have to insist that the only way to maximise revenue (if such is CIE's goal in reality) is to appeal to the masses that have rejected public transport due to the retention of arcane practices (among other things), and those are the car drivers. Like I said, when it comes to this Leap Card, the passengers have voted with their feet, and many of these passengers now have accelerator, brake and clutch pedals under their feet instead of the floor of a bus.

AlekSmart

Interesting development today,and a welcome boost for the ITS principle.

http://wexfordbus.com/fares/leap-card/

The ability to Top-Up on board is going to be a useful facility I suspect ?

Topping up your Leap Card

You can top up your Leap Card in Leap Card agents, or on Wexford Bus services by €5, €10, €20 or €50. Present your card and the cash to the driver and ask to top up by the desired amount.

Anybody know the Ticket Machine type in use ?

bk

And perhaps even more significantly, it supports weekly tickets, a first for leap card. Perhaps we will soon seen the various DB, Luas, IR period tickets finally arrive on Leap:

How do I purchase a weekly ticket on Wexford Bus with my Leap Card?

Present your Leap Card to the driver and request a Leap Weekly ticket to your chosen destination.

Let the driver know how you would like to pay for your ticket i.e. Cash or Travel Credit
If paying by Cash, give the driver the fare in cash. Place your Leap Card onto the Leap Card validator when advised to do so and your ticket will be issued to your Leap Card.A message saying Ticket Issued & Used will appear to denote that the validity period has commenced.
If paying using Travel Credit on your card, place your Leap Card onto the Leap Card validator. The driver will then deduct your fare from your Travel Credit and your ticket will be issued to your Leap Card. A message saying Ticket Issued & Used will appear to denote that the validity period has commenced.
For the remainder of the week (ticket is valid till midnight on the 7th day), present the Leap Card to the Leap Card Validator as you board the bus. Listen out for the beep which records that your ticket has been successfully used.

LeinsterDub

The lack of auto top up is a major issue ( i know they are trialling it but it's seems be taking ages)

...Me and OH go to get the bus. We walk to the stop , no shop around , her crap I forgot to top up my card I'll just use cash this time remind me to top it up...... Me and OH go to get the bus

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah really cant be bothered with the current top up system, it needs ease of use.

Boulevardier

I agree that having to pay 5 Euro just for the piece of plastic is totally excessive and a major disincentive to uptake. 2 Euro would have been much more sensible.

I also feel that stating your destination to a driver is far from foolproof, and I am not clear about what comeback you have if the driver makes a mistake.

However, WTF should I have to pay 3 Euro for a ride? As it is, my local daily fare went up from 1.90 to 2.15 last yeear, which is proportinally worse than the higher fare of 2.65 which went up to 2.80.

I vote an emphatic no to premium single fares, particularly as a way of strongarming people into buying leap cards. Such fares are anti-passenger and anti-environment.

bk

Boulevardier wrote: »

I agree that having to pay 5 Euro just for the piece of plastic is totally excessive and a major disincentive to uptake. 2 Euro would have been much more sensible.

In Atlanta, their equivalent card costs just $1.

Boulevardier wrote: »

I vote an emphatic no to premium single fares, particularly as a way of strongarming people into buying leap cards. Such fares are anti-passenger and anti-environment.

Typically smart cards with flat fares actually increase passenger numbers. They make the service easier to use and understand and reduce journey times due to reduced dwell times.

I agree that introducing a flat cash fare without also introducing a much cheaper leap card flat fare would be a no goer.

trellheim

I wait for the green light on the driver's machine if using Leap. In some cases it can take quite some time for the machine to do this, as has been pointed out above.

AlekSmart

Boulevardier wrote: »

I agree that having to pay 5 Euro just for the piece of plastic is totally excessive and a major disincentive to uptake. 2 Euro would have been much more sensible.

I also feel that stating your destination to a driver is far from foolproof, and I am not clear about what comeback you have if the driver makes a mistake.

However, WTF should I have to pay 3 Euro for a ride? As it is, my local daily fare went up from 1.90 to 2.15 last yeear, which is proportinally worse than the higher fare of 2.65 which went up to 2.80.

I vote an emphatic no to premium single fares, particularly as a way of strongarming people into buying leap cards. Such fares are anti-passenger and anti-environment.

Ah but.......thats only IF you made the decision to stay with cash.

Had you taken stock of the actual situation then you could be still making your €1.90 Journey for....€1.90.

Even worser,for those many folks who just HAVE to feel hard-done-by,is that those who were paying that €2.65 Cash fare can make the exact same journey today for €2.45 Leap.

Incredibly,when I attempt to point out that,for those who were liable for the upper two Cash Fares €2.15 and €2.65,their journey now could cost LESS than before,I get hrrumphs,sighs and rolling eyes,with much dark muttering about not using the Bus often enough etc etc...usually from individuals whom I see on a daily basis on my journeys....:rolleyes:

There is a significant cohort who simply MUST be able to display how bad it actually is,even if,reality dictates otherwise,and these folks now represent the single greatest obstacle to Leapcard making any further progress.

The question is.....will it require The Carrot or The Stick to migrate these people to the Leapcard experience ..?

etchyed

bk wrote: »

I think you would be wrong, even a few cash customers in amongst the leap users would have it switching back to the cash screen thus slowing things down.

If the cash fare were €3, there would be precious few cash customers, meaning this would not be an issue at the majority of bus stops.

Also any speed up would be negligible compared to the gain you would get with either leap card flat fare or tag-on/tag-off.

I think "negligible" is probably a bit strong. Still waiting for AlekSmart's take on this - it's quite unlike him to keep us waiting.

This sort of thinking seems to be at the heart of the issues we have with the failed leap card system in the first place.

bk, I'd rather you not accuse me of any "sort of thinking". I'll assume you were in a bad mood when you wrote this post, as you seem to have had a go at lxflyer too. I am attempting to come at this from a more practical and realistic standpoint. The ITS project dragged on for ten years, and much of the delay stemmed from disagreement over fare structures. That's why the fudge we have now has come about. The fact that things got as far as launch without Dublin Bus moving an inch on their fare structure means that it's unlikely any major changes will happen in the short to medium term.

At the end of the day, this is just an internet forum, and nothing we say here is going to make a blind bit of difference. So by all means, go on championing the flat fare. As I've said already, for the most part I agree with you. I was just trying to explore what might be possible within the bounds of the current stalemate. You can be positive about that and call it pragmatism, or you can be negative about it and derisively call it "this kind of thinking". I prefer the former.

The example you posted about Brighton, whilst offering some evidence that flat fares can be an incentive to travel, is the only such example available, and finding details about it is not easy. It's really not clear from the article how much of a fares decrease was experienced by whom, and how much of the increase in patronage was down to this, as opposed to the simplicity of the system. It's worth noting that 12 years later, the flat fare in Brighton is £2.30, which is relatively pricy, even for the deregulated UK market.

The increase in bus patronage in London was linked to Livingstone's policy of highly-subsidised low fares. It is not at all clear how much of a role the fare being flat played in attracting custom.

I cannot find any academic study of the effect of the introduction flat fares. I imagine this is as a result of commercial sensitivity. There must be something out there, but I haven't managed to find it.

So the evidence for flat fares driving custom is sketchy at best. The risk may also be too much for Dublin Bus to bear at the moment. The Brighton bus company had the backing of being part of a large nationwide operator. They introduced the flat fare on a trial basis, and even they described it as a "gamble". I'm not sure how appealing that sounds to Dublin Bus at the moment.

A flat fare of €1.45 is possible today based on DB's own figures.

I'm still not sure where you're getting this from. It sounds highly unlikely.

bk

etchyed I'm very frustrated by the way Leap has gone so far.

It offered so much potential to simplify and speed up bus transport, but instead it has been a disaster and has had totally the opposite effect.

Working in IT I see Leap as a typical government big IT project failure.

Big government IT projects often fail because their goal seems to be to introduce new technology just for technologies sake. To try to simply put technology on top of the existing broken processes while trying to minimise any political fallout. It rarely works.

Projects like this need to be focused on process change. Identify the root causes of the issues and look at how to change the process to fix them. Yes technology might play a part in fixing the process, but just one part, along with human changes, both customer and staff, etc.

In this case, the goal of the Leap card project should have been to simplify, speed up and integrate public transport.

Instead it seems the goal was to simply introduce a smart card for the sake of having a smart card, while changing non of the underlying tickets or processes, the things that were actually broken and needed fixing.

etchyed I admit that your heart is in absolutely the right place, that you are just looking for ways to boost Leap up take.

But I honestly believe that introducing a cash flat fare while keeping the current ridiculous leap driver interaction and stage fare system would have little impact towards these goals. I think it would just be a continuation of the half hearted attempt at rolling out Leap and avoiding the core issues.

I'm absolutely convinced that DB can find a flat fare level that wouldn't impact their fare box and likely would even increase it.

The only reason I can think of it not happening is political interference. Politicians not wanting to change things for fear of people who go on Joe Duffy whining about their fare increasing a small bit (while ignoring that it would be going done for many if not most people).

AlekSmart

etchyed wrote: »

.
I think "negligible" is probably a bit strong. Still waiting for AlekSmart's take on this - it's quite unlike him to keep us .

Apologies etcheted,I did'nt realize my "take" was being sought..:)

It's not much of a take really,except to be VERY wary of anything which will involve conflicting flows of humanity,each with a task to complete at the narrowest point of the Bus.

Because my "take" is slightly narrower in focus than many I tend not to be quite so all-embracing in my views.

With a single Smart Card Validator attached to the Luggage Rack demanding a tag-off,with underneath it,a Magnetic Card Validator demanding a Tag-On,the capacity for mayhem is increased significantly.

As it currently stands our Cash+Electronic Fare Payment modes are slugging it out on every Bus,and it's a bruising 15 round heavyweight bout with NO winner possible under the current rules.

Simple expedients,such as a remote validator on/at busy Bus Stops coupled with extra on-bus SCV's,one upper saloon and perhaps one to the mid-lower saloon,would be of great benefit in a Two-Tag system,but appear to represent Witchcraft to the folks looking into the boiling cauldron....:(

I tend to agree with bk,in his assessment of the overall situation....

bk:Big government IT projects often fail because their goal seems to be to introduce new technology just for technologies sake. To try to simply put technology on top of the existing broken processes while trying to minimise any political fallout. It rarely works.

The fact is that BAC already had their own Smart-Card Infrastructure up and running well in advance of any smoke from the ITS conclave.

The greatest single Pro-Customer advance on BAC services in the past 20 years came about because of it- The Non-Consecutive Rambler Ticket..

BAC was,and remains,very pro-active about the potential of Contactless Ticketing,however it's devlopment of Contactless products had to stop when the ITIG rolled out Leapcard.

Worse still,BAC were encouraged to reduce the effectivity of its own T90 product in order to manufacture a (small) benefit for Leapcard users.

The technology inherent in Leapcard is well proven and of a very high order.

However,again as stated by bk,it appears to be under the control of an Implementation Group who's grasp of how-stuff-works is somewhat dated.

The ITS project as a whole,was fully funded,well resourced and totally capable of revolutionizing Irelands Public Transport user experience.

Thus far,it's main result has been to introduce new levels of uncertainty,mistrust and even dislike,as early pro-active users struggle to see the benefits which should be so clear by now.

However,as others say,it's all academic until we can find any evidence that somebody in authority actually sees a problem,as to date,it appears the entire Leapcard/ITS project is going just swimmingly...

MGWR

AlekSmart wrote: »

Boulevardier wrote: »

I agree that having to pay €5 just for the piece of plastic is totally excessive and a major disincentive to uptake. €2 would have been much more sensible.

I also feel that stating your destination to a driver is far from foolproof, and I am not clear about what comeback you have if the driver makes a mistake.

However, (why) should I have to pay €3 for a ride? As it is, my local daily fare went up from €1.90 to €2.15 last year, which is proportionally worse than the higher fare of €2.65 which went up to €2.80.

I vote an emphatic no to premium single fares, particularly as a way of strong-arming people into buying leap cards. Such fares are anti-passenger and anti-environment.

Ah but.......thats only IF you made the decision to stay with cash.

Had you taken stock of the actual situation then you could be still making your €1.90 Journey for....€1.90.

Even worser, for those many folks who just HAVE to feel hard-done-by, is that those who were paying that €2.65 Cash fare can make the exact same journey today for €2.45 Leap.

Incredibly, when I attempt to point out that for those who were liable for the upper two Cash Fares €2.15 and €2.65, their journey now could cost LESS than before, I get hrrumphs, sighs and rolling eyes, with much dark muttering about not using the Bus often enough etc etc...usually from individuals whom I see on a daily basis on my journeys....:rolleyes:

There is a significant cohort who simply MUST be able to display how bad it actually is, even if reality dictates otherwise and these folks now represent the single greatest obstacle to Leapcard making any further progress.

The question is.....will it require The Carrot or The Stick to migrate these people to the Leapcard experience ..?

"The Stick" will induce "these people" to migrate to "The Automobile". Every time that DB makes the unfortunate error of alienating a passenger that can afford to do so (or who can avail of a ride share in a friend's car), that is what happens. Occasional riders may instead be tempted to go to a car-hire service, if they don't already own a car. Being draconian in the Leap Card rules will be another such error. Cashless buses will be further unattractive to car drivers.

As for "The Carrot", that will have to be such good value for money that even occasional riders will find it worthwhile to keep a Leap Card in wallet/purse. That means better advertising, and a bigger cut in fares (this would apply in the case of DB going to a flat fare as well); also, no expiry date. It can't be forced on a passenger base that has voted with their feet the first time around.

eejoynt

Any figures on how many cards are out ther?
Leap is not aimed at the following

Five day week commuters
People who regularly take two buses to see their granny/ aunt /cousin etc
Tourist day tippers

So who might it be aimed at?

Fair weather cyclists
Short time workers who take one bus
Car owners who want to nip into town and avoid parking fees

People normal react to economic incentives....maybe the discussion should be the price point of the card itself

Greenmachine

I have travelled in european countries where the user holds their smart card up to the reader and selects from one of 4 fares. Either 0,1,2 or 3. This would require no tagging off as you would have already selected your fare. No reason why this system can be implemented with Dublin Bus. For now I am happy with my student ticket and have no incentive to move to the leap card.

bk

Greenmachine wrote: »

I have travelled in european countries where the user holds their smart card up to the reader and selects from one of 4 fares. Either 0,1,2 or 3. This would require no tagging off as you would have already selected your fare.

Interesting idea, but there would be a few problems with it:

- Still slower to board then flat fare or tag-on/tag-off, unless you put a few validators around the place inside the bus for people to do it while the bus is moving. But then you have to deal with people not bothering to pay at all. You'd need lots more ticket inspectors.

- People would just select the cheapest fare, again you would need lots more ticket inspectors to enforce it.

- People not knowing what fare they should be selecting. The current stage system is far too complicated, wouldn't work at all. It might only work if you created some well defined zones e.g. city to canals, canals to m50, outside m50, etc.

To be honest, if you aren't going to do flat fare, then I think tag-on/tag-off with a sensible max fare (so many people don't bother to tag-off) would be a better solution.

I believe boarding would be slightly quicker and no need for a massive increase in ticket inspectors. Also just easier to use.

AlekSmart

MGWR wrote: »

"The Stick" will induce "these people" to migrate to "The Automobile". Every time that DB makes the unfortunate error of alienating a passenger that can afford to do so (or who can avail of a ride share in a friend's car), that is what happens. Occasional riders may instead be tempted to go to a car-hire service, if they don't already own a car. Being draconian in the Leap Card rules will be another such error. Cashless buses will be further unattractive to car drivers.

As for "The Carrot", that will have to be such good value for money that even occasional riders will find it worthwhile to keep a Leap Card in wallet/purse. That means better advertising, and a bigger cut in fares (this would apply in the case of DB going to a flat fare as well); also, no expiry date. It can't be forced on a passenger base that has voted with their feet the first time around.

Sticking with Sticks & Carrots...I notice that the Wexford Bus LeapCard single fare carry a very meagre 85c discount ...and that the Weekly Leapcard Ticket has NO discount at all.

Leap Card weekly tickets cost the same as the cash weekly ticket.

If this is what the NTA regard as a Carrot,then the NTA Stick is surely going to be something to behold ?

I attach no blame to Wexford Bus,who operate a good service,but I'm afraid it does,yet again,demonstrate that the NTA really have little grasp of what a properly administered ITS could achieve for Public Transport as a whole....:rolleyes:

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

I attach no blame to Wexford Bus,who operate a good service,but I'm afraid it does,yet again,demonstrate that the NTA really have little grasp of what a properly administered ITS could achieve for Public Transport as a whole....:rolleyes:

I'm not sure if there's any advantage to discounting tickets loaded on Leapcard over those loaded on paper. The paper form of tickets will (for DB and IR at least) disappear and Leap will be the only way to buy them - this is how it works in any other city I've been to.

On the other hand, I definitely agree that there should be a huge price difference between Leap and card for single trip tickets.