Slow uptake of Leap Card - would a minimum €3 cash fare on Dublin Bus help?

etchyed

Can't be bothered looking for one of the Leap megathreads, and I think this particular aspect could do with a thread of its own. Apologies if it's been discussed already.

It's been a while since I've had cause to use a Dublin Bus service, but on the last occasion I did (which was late last year) I still seemed to be in the minority of users in using a Leap Card, almost a year after the system's introduction. Based on AlekSmart's posts here, this would still seem to be a problem.

Tiresome as it may be to constantly make comparisons with Oyster, I'm gonna do it anyway. If I remember correctly, at the time of introduction, the Oyster card offered £0.90 fares to its users, while the cash fare was £2. The incentive to adopt a smartcard ASAP was pretty clear cut.

Here, we've got Leap fares 25-30c cheaper than cash. For an occasional bus user, the 15 or so journeys you have to make to recoup the €5 Leap card deposit just doesn't seem worth it. A €3 cash fare would put paid to that situation pretty quickly.

Obviously, there are plenty of reasons why Dublin Bus are reluctant to do this. Unlike TfL, they don't have buckets of money to throw around, and are probably afraid of driving away custom. They also have less of an incentive to switch to all-Leap transactions, as the time savings they would gain are not as much as they could be, due to the retention of the fare stage system and resulting necessity for Leap users to interact with the driver (I still think tag-on-tag-off would work better, even with single door buses, but that's a whole other conversation).

So, what do we reckon? A useful tool in eradicating cash transactions or an unfair penalty on the unprepared? And is it even worth bothering while the driver interaction remains?

I don't really see the point given the hassle of it and having to interact with the driver anyway. Incentivise it for what reason? It takes even longer than cash from what I can see, I don't think we need more delays

Con Logue

Having used Oyster for years in London, where it is widely used and now extended to the National Rail network in London as well, I was and still am well disposed to the Leap Card.

However, given our national obsession with the alleged uniqueness of Ireland, or whatever excuse was given, the Leap Card evolved more slowly than a Galapagos Turtle egg hatching on a particularly bad year.

I make no apology for comparing Dublin with London here. Oyster was launched with a radical rethink about cash fares and the zones around Central London. Creating a simple fare structure for Dublin Bus was beyond the remit of the RPA team that were in charge of the integrated ticketing scheme. Instead the line of least resistance was taken and DB's antiquated fare stages were kept.

But of course London has successfully implemented bus privatisation while keeping their world famous red buses and introducing worthy Northern Ireland built replacements for the Routemaster, and without the nonsensical jingle-jangle of bus stops that characterise private routes here.

But sure after all, we are unique, aren't we?

AlekSmart

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't really see the point given the hassle of it and having to interact with the driver anyway. Incentivise it for what reason? It takes even longer than cash from what I can see, I don't think we need more delays

The lack of a time benefit is one HELL of a Leapcard problem.

The time-lag accompanying a Leapcard presentation is,I'd reckon,supposed to be measured in Milliseconds,which is almost never achieved.

In some cases it can take some 2 -3 seconds for the Ticket Machine to actually prompt to the Leapcard Fare Menu,then you add the actual transaction.

Worse still is the increasing occurrence of Leapcard Freezes on the Ticket Machine,which occur when a remote Smartcard Transaction and a Ticket Machine Leapcard transaction are attempted together.

From my perspective,it would appear that the lack of a feedback channel from BusDrivers directly to Leapcard Technical Department would be of great value....perhaps too great ????

Dingle_berry

A tag on tag off system would attract all the customers who would be inclined to use a leap card, but don't as they don't see there bring much benefit. Without penalising those who aren't inclined to use a leap card (tourists, etc)
It would also reduce the "conductor" work a bus driver has to do at each stop and reduce the need for a simplification of the fare system.

The tag on tag off works for the Luas, why wouldn't it work for Dublin bus? I realise that it would demand a large investment from a cash strapped company and vandalism could be more of a problem in certain areas.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

From my perspective,it would appear that the lack of a feedback channel from BusDrivers directly to Leapcard Technical Department would be of great value....perhaps too great ????

Any problems with a Dublin Bus ticket machine is almost entirely the responsibility of Dublin Bus. Feedback should go to a technical department within Dublin Bus, not Leap, RPA or NTA. They own the ticket machines, they own most of the software, no-one else is going to fix their problems.

Likewise, any feedback about the products, prices or interaction required for a Leap transaction should go to Dublin Bus since they're (very sadly) not in the remit of the Leap project. We can thank our gutless politicians, both past and present, for that gem.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

In some cases it can take some 2 -3 seconds for the Ticket Machine to actually prompt to the Leapcard Fare Menu,then you add the actual transaction.

Alek, as the most regular bus driver poster here, I'd be interested in your experience of this problem. Above, you say in some cases it takes 2-3 seconds for the ticket machine to respond to being presented with a Leap Card. But taking the transaction as a whole, from the time you first see a passenger's face, to the time they walk away with ticket in hand/Leap fare paid, I wonder if you're able to say, on average, whether cash transactions or Leap transactions take longer to process. I realise asking for an average is a bit much here, as there will be a wide variety of different situations/dozy customers, but I'm genuinely interested to know whether Leap transactions are taking longer.

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

markpb

etchyed wrote: »

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

Maybe this will echo my post above but it's worth pointing out that despite what we all want, Leap is not a standard smartcard transit project. The (previous) government tasked the RPA with delivering a card which supports every public transport operator in the country through a combination of ePurse and ticketing. What it does not do is change the existing ticketing system, simplify it in anyway or integrate the fares.

The people delivering it don't have the authority to tell DB how to make it work or what changes they should do to make it work well. It's up to Dublin Bus to deliver a good Leap experience and so far they've failed miserably. To be fair, they're constrained by their own decision to buy single door buses but even still, they've done the bare minimum to get Leap onto the buses.

This is Ireland - politics über alles.

Con Logue

At the time of the changeover from the Irish pound to the Euro, a simple €1/€2 cash fare structure for Dublin Bus was proposed. Alas too late now for those prices.

We also need to factor in resistance to change of habit - I would be interested to see any stats regarding the number of commuters who pay daily cash fares on Dublin Bus rather than take out a commuter ticket, whether taxsaver or not.

For Leap to take over from cash fares there does need to be incentives, however I think it is still a niche product. Oyster is ubiquitous in London precisely because if you have any kind of period ticket, be it OAP, student or weekly/monthly/annual travelcard, it is in Oyster form.

The potential for accurate information as to travel usage is enormous but so will be resistance to change from the usual vested interests.

AlekSmart

etchyed wrote: »

Alek, as the most regular bus driver poster here, I'd be interested in your experience of this problem. Above, you say in some cases it takes 2-3 seconds for the ticket machine to respond to being presented with a Leap Card. But taking the transaction as a whole, from the time you first see a passenger's face, to the time they walk away with ticket in hand/Leap fare paid, I wonder if you're able to say, on average, whether cash transactions or Leap transactions take longer to process. I realise asking for an average is a bit much here, as there will be a wide variety of different situations/dozy customers, but I'm genuinely interested to know whether Leap transactions are taking longer.

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

As a generalization,a non-contentions Cash Transaction without any Change Ticket can be accomplished in under 3 seconds (This is the comparator I use for Leapcard Transactions which are changeless transactions)

If I process such a Cash Fare customer,and they are immediately followed by a Leapcard Holder,then it can involve this incredible 2-3 second lag,before the screen defaults.

Once the screen appears,the actual Leapcard Fare process is of the 1 second variety,with perhaps a tiny delay caused by the user verifying their balance display before removing their card.

If then,a number of Leapcard Transactions follow together,it is very fast,with each card being recognised immediately.

However,break that Leapcard Stride with another Cash Transaction and you are back to square one.

Also,when this Leapcard delay occurs,many users have already started to remove their card in anticipation of what they expect to be a "Normal" transaction,this almost invariably results in a misread or non-read of their Leapcard,but they will have already walked off,with most Busdrivers simply being too busy to call them back.

One important element here is the importance of an Audible Signal to accompany a successful transaction,the lack of which can add yet another second or two as the Leapcarder pauses to check their status.

My impression is that the Wayfarer System is having issues coping with multiple presentations of Smart Cards,with perhaps,a seperate issue of inability to cater fully for the range of SmartCard based products being demanded.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

As a generalization,a non-contentions Cash Transaction without any Change Ticket can be accomplished in under 3 seconds (This is the comparator I use for Leapcard Transactions which are changeless transactions)

And that comparator is fair, but as all Leap transactions are changeless, a wider adoption of Leap card would lead to a reduction in transactions requiring change, along with a reduction in those non-optimal 3 second transactions where you have people fumbling for coins.

And based on what you're saying about the ticket machines, if nearly everyone were using a Leap card, the 2-3 second delay would occur a lot less frequently.

So that deals with the "what's the point?" question. There would be a dwell time reduction, albeit not as great as if there were a flat fare.

So the question remains, what's stopping this happening? A €3 cash fare would have 95% of people using a Leap card within a month (wild assumption on my part but stands to . Is the NTA afraid to sanction this? Or is Dublin Bus actually reliant on a proportion of its customers paying the higher cash fares indefinitely?

EDIT: Admittedly the "95% within a month" thing is a wild assumption, but I think it's probably a fair one. I'll try to look into uptake in other markets, and see if there's any precedent for this.

Richard Logue

Surely the time has come to eliminate the Dublin Bus stage fare system which itself is a hangover from the old DUTC Trams?

Seperating the Dublin Short Hop zone into an inner and outer zone, charging flat fares would greatly simplify the Leap system.

etchyed

Richard Logue wrote: »

Surely the time has come to eliminate the Dublin Bus stage fare system which itself is a hangover from the old DUTC Trams?

Seperating the Dublin Short Hop zone into an inner and outer zone, charging flat fares would greatly simplify the Leap system.

Two zones would still require either driver interaction or tagging off.

Whilst I think everyone agrees a flat fare would be best, it would require a subsidy increase, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

Posy

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't really see the point given the hassle of it and having to interact with the driver anyway. Incentivise it for what reason? It takes even longer than cash from what I can see, I don't think we need more delays

These are two major downsides to the leap card. I still don't understand why there is no tag on/tag off system. It's essentially the same as paying cash. It seems so pointless- and it's quicker to pay with cash, so in that respect cash is easier.
Plus, I'm never sure when the transaction is actually finished- there is no obvious signal to remove the card. It's much simpler to just use a rambler.

It would also be good if there was a maximum daily fare- like you can't go over €8 in a day, for example.

bk

Ideally a flat cash fare of €3 in conjunction with a flat leap fare (e.g. €1.50) with no driver interaction required.

If that isn't possible at least make leap tag-on/tag-off with a reasonable max fare.

MGWR

etchyed wrote: »

Can't be bothered looking for one of the Leap megathreads, and I think this particular aspect could do with a thread of its own. Apologies if it's been discussed already.

It's been a while since I've had cause to use a Dublin Bus service, but on the last occasion I did (which was late last year) I still seemed to be in the minority of users in using a Leap Card, almost a year after the system's introduction. Based on AlekSmart's posts here, this would still seem to be a problem.

Tiresome as it may be to constantly make comparisons with Oyster, I'm gonna do it anyway. If I remember correctly, at the time of introduction, the Oyster card offered £0.90 fares to its users, while the cash fare was £2. The incentive to adopt a smartcard ASAP was pretty clear cut.

Here, we've got Leap fares 25-30c cheaper than cash. For an occasional bus user, the 15 or so journeys you have to make to recoup the €5 Leap card deposit just doesn't seem worth it. A €3 cash fare would put paid to that situation pretty quickly.

Obviously, there are plenty of reasons why Dublin Bus are reluctant to do this. Unlike TfL, they don't have buckets of money to throw around, and are probably afraid of driving away custom. They also have less of an incentive to switch to all-Leap transactions, as the time savings they would gain are not as much as they could be, due to the retention of the fare stage system and resulting necessity for Leap users to interact with the driver (I still think tag-on-tag-off would work better, even with single door buses, but that's a whole other conversation).

So, what do we reckon? A useful tool in eradicating cash transactions or an unfair penalty on the unprepared? And is it even worth bothering while the driver interaction remains?

It'd be a useful tool to get people to keep driving their cars. The government responding to people voting with their feet by forcing draconian measures on them to induce them to accept a system they've rejected will result in a new government next election cycle.

And a flat fare requiring an increased subsidy? Not if the ridership goes up as a consequence. People want less complication rather than more; being able to get on a bus paying a flat fare and that's the end of the hassle would make the bus more attractive. DB fares are already among the highest on the planet, never mind just Europe; imagine charging the equivalent of €3 in New York City (which works out to about $3.91 USD at the time of writing, and at various times it was higher when the euro was worth more).

mikemac1

A smartcard that requires you to talk to the driver is not a smart card

Travel 90 suits me just fine

eejoynt

I use the bus occasionally, I think that the number of leap card users is gradually increasing, the card is aimed at the occasional traveller, as the other cards are more beneficial to the regular user.
The pool of potential converters is therefore presumably the occasional bus user, a difficult group to define still less to target

How about a 4 euro leap card if bought in db o Connell street with change receipts?

Or a giveaway policy with high value products in a store like DID?

AlekSmart

MGWR wrote: »

.

And a flat fare requiring an increased subsidy? Not if the ridership goes up as a consequence. People want less complication rather than more; being able to get on a bus paying a flat fare and that's the end of the hassle would make the bus more attractive. DB fares are already among the highest on the planet, never mind just Europe; imagine charging the equivalent of €3 in New York City (which works out to about $3.91 USD at the time of writing, and at various times it was higher when the euro was worth more).

I would have to disagree here.

One of the main benefits of the historic Fare Stage system is it's inherent ability to cater for as wide a customer requirement as possible.

You will struggle to find a baseline cash fare of €1.65 in an EU major Capital City.

Equally the maximum 13-23 stage fare of €2.80 still compares well with cash fares EU wide.

The greatest difference between Dublin and the Rest of the World is the extent to which Farebox Revenue (ie: CASH) makes up the service providers revenue stream.

This report although dated 2000 outlines the significant disparity in funding,which then carries on into the general lack of regard for our Public Transport Systems in General...

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2567.pdf

96% Farebox vs 4% Subsidy/Grant,we are at this level in somewhat rarefied company,essentially Lady Thatchers UK/Scotland and Norway.

Most other civilized and largely well regarded Urban Public Transport systems hover around the 50/50 split,a figure which if applied to Dublin would,of itself,allow for a significant service improvement.

However,given our continuing native Political pre-occupation with the Public Transport Policies of Lady Thatcher and Nicholas Ridley,any admission that they do not work is unlikely in our lifetime.

Instead we appear stuck with an Administrative System wedded to introducing all manner of high-profile technoloigical advances,but then emasculating these,in order to maintain the Status Quo,itself usually firmly embedded in 19th Century practices.

It must be noted that current Government Policy is firmly based upon Public Transport Users paying as close to the actual cost of their service as possible.

This ensures that Irish Public Transport,far from being made to appeal to the masses,is firmly being removed from the list of available options,a policy which,as in the UK,will result in vast numbers of persons entitled to Free Public Transport Use,but with almost NO services available on which to use it .......I doubt very much whether Leo Varadakar and his advisors have taken much interest in the UK's current Public Transport situation,but they really should....;)

AlekSmart

eejoynt wrote: »

I use the bus occasionally, I think that the number of leap card users is gradually increasing, the card is aimed at the occasional traveller, as the other cards are more beneficial to the regular user.
The pool of potential converters is therefore presumably the occasional bus user, a difficult group to define still less to target

How about a 4 euro leap card if bought in db o Connell street with change receipts?

Or a giveaway policy with high value products in a store like DID?

At this juncture,Leapcard needs to be distriubuted to as large a demographic as possible.

Somebody needs to accept that they have to take a hit in getting the damn thing out there...:eek:

Give it away FREE with stuff...Target the (Non Student) youth market,do anything,but get it moving,as the current stagnation is reverse engineering itself into a stream of Negativity.

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Once the screen appears,the actual Leapcard Fare process is of the 1 second variety,with perhaps a tiny delay caused by the user verifying their balance display before removing their card.

This is one thing I haven't known for sure. Is it ok to remove the card as soon as the button is pressed? I know a green light appears after a bit but I've been getting the impression that I don't have to wait for it.

etchyed

MGWR wrote: »

It'd be a useful tool to get people to keep driving their cars. The government responding to people voting with their feet by forcing draconian measures on them to induce them to accept a system they've rejected will result in a new government next election cycle.

Leap hasn't been rejected - people just haven't bothered to get one so far, as the incentive hasn't been great enough. Introducing a high cash fare to incentivise smart card use is not new - it's been done elsewhere without politicians quaking in their boots about being kicked out of government. I have no idea where you got that from. This is hardly and election-losing issue.

And a flat fare requiring an increased subsidy? Not if the ridership goes up as a consequence. People want less complication rather than more; being able to get on a bus paying a flat fare and that's the end of the hassle would make the bus more attractive.

A flat fare would not increase ridership to the extent that it would pay for itself. Bus fare elasticities are simply not that high, and I think you overstate the extent to which people value the flat fare.

I agree with having a flat fare - I think it would make the whole system run a lot more smoothly. But in order to avoid disproportionately penalising people travelling short distances, it would have to be set relatively low. This would attract some bus users due to the increased simplicity and lower fares. But definitely not enough new users to pay for itself.

DB fares are already among the highest on the planet, never mind just Europe; imagine charging the equivalent of €3 in New York City (which works out to about $3.91 USD at the time of writing, and at various times it was higher when the euro was worth more).

The bus market in the US is entirely different from that in Europe, so this is not a reasonable comparison.

Nermal

etchyed wrote: »

Whilst I think everyone agrees a flat fare would be best, it would require a subsidy increase, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

Why? Just add up current fare income and divide by the number of journeys.

Obviously shorter journeys will become more expensive: so what?

Just do it, and whack on a massive premium for using cash.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

At this juncture,Leapcard needs to be distriubuted to as large a demographic as possible.

Why? At this point in time, Leap is only useful to occasional public transport users. Giving cards out to lots people who can't use it because they can't (yet) load weekly, monthly or annual tickes or benefit from capping or transfers wouldn't help anyone.

When those features are ready and available, I'd agree 100% with you - they should be posting cards out to every address in the city and giving them out on street corners. However the best way to encourage adoption of Leap is for DB to price it correctly. Small differences between cash and Leap fares is not going to work.

Once the technical stuff is sorted out, it will live or die with Dublin Bus. They're the biggest public transport operator in the city and they're the only one who can't accept debit cards, credit cards or notes. Leap removes the need to prepare for a bus journey and make it more spontaneous and more convenient.

etchyed

Nermal wrote: »

Why? Just add up current fare income and divide by the number of journeys.

Obviously shorter journeys will become more expensive: so what?

So, that would be politically unacceptable and will not be allowed by the NTA. A flat fare should have and would have been introduced with Leap if it was ever going to happen. It would also drive some those shorter journey passengers away, leading to loss of revenue, which would not necessarily be made up for by an increase in longer journey passengers.

Just to be clear here, because there are a lot of people chiming in with this opinion, EVERYONE AGREES that a flat fare would be best. However, one of the assumptions forming the basis for this thread is that realistically, it's not going to happen any time soon. The flat fare and its merits have also been discussed at length in other threads.

I intended for this to be a discussion of one specific aspect of Leap: the use of high cash fares to incentivise its use. I realise the issues aren't entirely separable, but I wish people would accept the premise that flat fares are both expensive and unlikely to happen in Dublin, a premise which I didn't just pull out of my arse.

Dravokivich

markpb wrote: »

Why? At this point in time, Leap is only useful to occasional public transport users. Giving cards out to lots people who can't use it because they can't (yet) load weekly, monthly or annual tickes or benefit from capping or transfers wouldn't help anyone.

When those features are ready and available, I'd agree 100% with you - they should be posting cards out to every address in the city and giving them out on street corners. However the best way to encourage adoption of Leap is for DB to price it correctly. Small differences between cash and Leap fares is not going to work.

Once the technical stuff is sorted out, it will live or die with Dublin Bus. They're the biggest public transport operator in the city and they're the only one who can't accept debit cards, credit cards or notes. Leap removes the need to prepare for a bus journey and make it more spontaneous and more convenient.

Just regarding the last paragraph, a lot of issues regarding usability are down to Irish rail, more so than Dublin bus. The amount of complaints in the metro last week was unreal. I've even seen their staff say some woeful stuff to people looking for advise on what happens when a train gets cancelled recently. Wouldn't tell them they just needed to tag off.

bk

etchyed the problem though is that Leap is often actually slower then cash.

So if you introduce a high cash fare, but not fix the fundamental problem of driver interaction, then all you achieve is even higher dwell times.

Leap uptake should only be pushed when driver interaction is done away with, either with a Leap card flat fare or tag-on/tag-off system.

bk

Nermal wrote: »

Why? Just add up current fare income and divide by the number of journeys.

Obviously shorter journeys will become more expensive: so what?

Actually if you did that, based on the 2011 figures, a ticket would cost €1.45 per journey. So it would actually be cheaper for most people. The only ones for whom it would be more expensive would be child fares.

To be honest I've always sort of questioned the thinking behind a child fare. Doesn't a child (beyond an infant on your lap) take up as much space as an adult. So why give them a cheaper fare?

Or instead rebalance so it is something like €1.60 adult flat leap fare, €1 child.

And you know what I think it would be worth it for the overall cheaper prices, reduced dwell times and greater uptake.

I think DB would actually end up making more money from such a fare, thanks to reduction in fraud and increased take up due to the cheaper fare and faster journey times. Also if they do this in conjunction with a flat cash fare of €3, they would make extra money from tourists and people slow to move over to leap.

etchyed

bk wrote: »

etchyed the problem though is that Leap is often actually slower then cash.

So if you introduce a high cash fare, but not fix the fundamental problem of driver interaction, then all you achieve is even higher dwell times.

bk, I appreciate you trying to explain this to me (genuinely, no sarcasm) but in the course of this thread (which is only two pages long, but I'll recap for you anyway) I have:

- Acknowledged that this is a problem

etchyed - Post #1 wrote: »

And is it even worth bothering while the driver interaction remains?

- Acknowledged that Leap card actually being slower is a potential problem

etchyed - Post #7 wrote: »

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

- Asked a bus driver for his opinion

etchyed - Post#7 wrote: »

I wonder if you're able to say, on average, whether cash transactions or Leap transactions take longer to process.

- Got an answer

AlekSmart - Post #10 wrote: »

As a generalization,a non-contentions Cash Transaction without any Change Ticket can be accomplished in under 3 seconds (This is the comparator I use for Leapcard Transactions which are changeless transactions)

If I process such a Cash Fare customer,and they are immediately followed by a Leapcard Holder,then it can involve this incredible 2-3 second lag,before the screen defaults.

Once the screen appears,the actual Leapcard Fare process is of the 1 second variety,with perhaps a tiny delay caused by the user verifying their balance display before removing their card.

If then,a number of Leapcard Transactions follow together,it is very fast,with each card being recognised immediately.

However,break that Leapcard Stride with another Cash Transaction and you are back to square one.

- And finally, made an assumption, based on that answer, that boarding would indeed be faster if everyone was using a Leap card. I don't think this is unreasonable.

etchyed - Post #11 wrote: »

...as all Leap transactions are changeless, a wider adoption of Leap card would lead to a reduction in transactions requiring change, along with a reduction in those non-optimal 3 second transactions where you have people fumbling for coins.

And based on what you're saying about the ticket machines, if nearly everyone were using a Leap card, the 2-3 second delay would occur a lot less frequently.

So that deals with the "what's the point?" question. There would be a dwell time reduction, albeit not as great as if there were a flat fare.

So, am I wrong? I don't deny that using a Leap card can sometimes take a stupidly long time. So I'll defer again to the bus driver(s) here. Would it be faster if 95% of your current cash fare passengers paid with a Leap card, retaining the current fare structure?

LXFlyer

A few points on this:

1) LEAP has a phased rollout (as indeed did Oyster) and it's fairly obvious that as such the administrators planned a soft launch with a gradual take up, thereby minimising mass chaos if things went wrong with the system.

2) It has already been indicated in the last NTA fare determination report that the DB fare system will be overhauled in the next 18 months or so. What the final setup is has yet to be determined according to that report.

3) I imagine that given the perilous state of DB finances that they would regard any switch to a flat fare as a risky move. Remember that the primary source of company income is fare box revenue and the company cannot risk that falling.

It's very easy to say sitting at a key board that ridership would increase, but without access to the fare profiles how can any of us say that with any degree of certainty? We can't. However, flat fares tend to be more prevalent in cities with high degrees of subsidy, something our government tends not to be too enthused about. I personally suspect it would have a negative impact on overall fare box revenue as people making shorter trips reduce in number.

Personally while I obviously see the benefit of a flat fare in terms of ease of use, unless government is prepared to increase subsidies (unlikely) I would imagine some form of zonal structure will be what we end up with, along with tag on tag off.

Stark

Posy wrote: »

Plus, I'm never sure when the transaction is actually finished- there is no obvious signal to remove the card. It's much simpler to just use a rambler.

I usually get a grunt from the driver

mikemac1 wrote: »

A smartcard that requires you to talk to the driver is not a smart card

Travel 90 suits me just fine

Pity they seem to be doing their damndest to make that option also unattractive. €25 now for a book of 10!