Slow uptake of Leap Card - would a minimum €3 cash fare on Dublin Bus help?

etchyed

Can't be bothered looking for one of the Leap megathreads, and I think this particular aspect could do with a thread of its own. Apologies if it's been discussed already.

It's been a while since I've had cause to use a Dublin Bus service, but on the last occasion I did (which was late last year) I still seemed to be in the minority of users in using a Leap Card, almost a year after the system's introduction. Based on AlekSmart's posts here, this would still seem to be a problem.

Tiresome as it may be to constantly make comparisons with Oyster, I'm gonna do it anyway. If I remember correctly, at the time of introduction, the Oyster card offered £0.90 fares to its users, while the cash fare was £2. The incentive to adopt a smartcard ASAP was pretty clear cut.

Here, we've got Leap fares 25-30c cheaper than cash. For an occasional bus user, the 15 or so journeys you have to make to recoup the €5 Leap card deposit just doesn't seem worth it. A €3 cash fare would put paid to that situation pretty quickly.

Obviously, there are plenty of reasons why Dublin Bus are reluctant to do this. Unlike TfL, they don't have buckets of money to throw around, and are probably afraid of driving away custom. They also have less of an incentive to switch to all-Leap transactions, as the time savings they would gain are not as much as they could be, due to the retention of the fare stage system and resulting necessity for Leap users to interact with the driver (I still think tag-on-tag-off would work better, even with single door buses, but that's a whole other conversation).

So, what do we reckon? A useful tool in eradicating cash transactions or an unfair penalty on the unprepared? And is it even worth bothering while the driver interaction remains?

I don't really see the point given the hassle of it and having to interact with the driver anyway. Incentivise it for what reason? It takes even longer than cash from what I can see, I don't think we need more delays

Con Logue

Having used Oyster for years in London, where it is widely used and now extended to the National Rail network in London as well, I was and still am well disposed to the Leap Card.

However, given our national obsession with the alleged uniqueness of Ireland, or whatever excuse was given, the Leap Card evolved more slowly than a Galapagos Turtle egg hatching on a particularly bad year.

I make no apology for comparing Dublin with London here. Oyster was launched with a radical rethink about cash fares and the zones around Central London. Creating a simple fare structure for Dublin Bus was beyond the remit of the RPA team that were in charge of the integrated ticketing scheme. Instead the line of least resistance was taken and DB's antiquated fare stages were kept.

But of course London has successfully implemented bus privatisation while keeping their world famous red buses and introducing worthy Northern Ireland built replacements for the Routemaster, and without the nonsensical jingle-jangle of bus stops that characterise private routes here.

But sure after all, we are unique, aren't we?

AlekSmart

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't really see the point given the hassle of it and having to interact with the driver anyway. Incentivise it for what reason? It takes even longer than cash from what I can see, I don't think we need more delays

The lack of a time benefit is one HELL of a Leapcard problem.

The time-lag accompanying a Leapcard presentation is,I'd reckon,supposed to be measured in Milliseconds,which is almost never achieved.

In some cases it can take some 2 -3 seconds for the Ticket Machine to actually prompt to the Leapcard Fare Menu,then you add the actual transaction.

Worse still is the increasing occurrence of Leapcard Freezes on the Ticket Machine,which occur when a remote Smartcard Transaction and a Ticket Machine Leapcard transaction are attempted together.

From my perspective,it would appear that the lack of a feedback channel from BusDrivers directly to Leapcard Technical Department would be of great value....perhaps too great ????

Dingle_berry

A tag on tag off system would attract all the customers who would be inclined to use a leap card, but don't as they don't see there bring much benefit. Without penalising those who aren't inclined to use a leap card (tourists, etc)
It would also reduce the "conductor" work a bus driver has to do at each stop and reduce the need for a simplification of the fare system.

The tag on tag off works for the Luas, why wouldn't it work for Dublin bus? I realise that it would demand a large investment from a cash strapped company and vandalism could be more of a problem in certain areas.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

From my perspective,it would appear that the lack of a feedback channel from BusDrivers directly to Leapcard Technical Department would be of great value....perhaps too great ????

Any problems with a Dublin Bus ticket machine is almost entirely the responsibility of Dublin Bus. Feedback should go to a technical department within Dublin Bus, not Leap, RPA or NTA. They own the ticket machines, they own most of the software, no-one else is going to fix their problems.

Likewise, any feedback about the products, prices or interaction required for a Leap transaction should go to Dublin Bus since they're (very sadly) not in the remit of the Leap project. We can thank our gutless politicians, both past and present, for that gem.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

In some cases it can take some 2 -3 seconds for the Ticket Machine to actually prompt to the Leapcard Fare Menu,then you add the actual transaction.

Alek, as the most regular bus driver poster here, I'd be interested in your experience of this problem. Above, you say in some cases it takes 2-3 seconds for the ticket machine to respond to being presented with a Leap Card. But taking the transaction as a whole, from the time you first see a passenger's face, to the time they walk away with ticket in hand/Leap fare paid, I wonder if you're able to say, on average, whether cash transactions or Leap transactions take longer to process. I realise asking for an average is a bit much here, as there will be a wide variety of different situations/dozy customers, but I'm genuinely interested to know whether Leap transactions are taking longer.

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

markpb

etchyed wrote: »

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

Maybe this will echo my post above but it's worth pointing out that despite what we all want, Leap is not a standard smartcard transit project. The (previous) government tasked the RPA with delivering a card which supports every public transport operator in the country through a combination of ePurse and ticketing. What it does not do is change the existing ticketing system, simplify it in anyway or integrate the fares.

The people delivering it don't have the authority to tell DB how to make it work or what changes they should do to make it work well. It's up to Dublin Bus to deliver a good Leap experience and so far they've failed miserably. To be fair, they're constrained by their own decision to buy single door buses but even still, they've done the bare minimum to get Leap onto the buses.

This is Ireland - politics über alles.

Con Logue

At the time of the changeover from the Irish pound to the Euro, a simple €1/€2 cash fare structure for Dublin Bus was proposed. Alas too late now for those prices.

We also need to factor in resistance to change of habit - I would be interested to see any stats regarding the number of commuters who pay daily cash fares on Dublin Bus rather than take out a commuter ticket, whether taxsaver or not.

For Leap to take over from cash fares there does need to be incentives, however I think it is still a niche product. Oyster is ubiquitous in London precisely because if you have any kind of period ticket, be it OAP, student or weekly/monthly/annual travelcard, it is in Oyster form.

The potential for accurate information as to travel usage is enormous but so will be resistance to change from the usual vested interests.

AlekSmart

etchyed wrote: »

Alek, as the most regular bus driver poster here, I'd be interested in your experience of this problem. Above, you say in some cases it takes 2-3 seconds for the ticket machine to respond to being presented with a Leap Card. But taking the transaction as a whole, from the time you first see a passenger's face, to the time they walk away with ticket in hand/Leap fare paid, I wonder if you're able to say, on average, whether cash transactions or Leap transactions take longer to process. I realise asking for an average is a bit much here, as there will be a wide variety of different situations/dozy customers, but I'm genuinely interested to know whether Leap transactions are taking longer.

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

As a generalization,a non-contentions Cash Transaction without any Change Ticket can be accomplished in under 3 seconds (This is the comparator I use for Leapcard Transactions which are changeless transactions)

If I process such a Cash Fare customer,and they are immediately followed by a Leapcard Holder,then it can involve this incredible 2-3 second lag,before the screen defaults.

Once the screen appears,the actual Leapcard Fare process is of the 1 second variety,with perhaps a tiny delay caused by the user verifying their balance display before removing their card.

If then,a number of Leapcard Transactions follow together,it is very fast,with each card being recognised immediately.

However,break that Leapcard Stride with another Cash Transaction and you are back to square one.

Also,when this Leapcard delay occurs,many users have already started to remove their card in anticipation of what they expect to be a "Normal" transaction,this almost invariably results in a misread or non-read of their Leapcard,but they will have already walked off,with most Busdrivers simply being too busy to call them back.

One important element here is the importance of an Audible Signal to accompany a successful transaction,the lack of which can add yet another second or two as the Leapcarder pauses to check their status.

My impression is that the Wayfarer System is having issues coping with multiple presentations of Smart Cards,with perhaps,a seperate issue of inability to cater fully for the range of SmartCard based products being demanded.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

As a generalization,a non-contentions Cash Transaction without any Change Ticket can be accomplished in under 3 seconds (This is the comparator I use for Leapcard Transactions which are changeless transactions)

And that comparator is fair, but as all Leap transactions are changeless, a wider adoption of Leap card would lead to a reduction in transactions requiring change, along with a reduction in those non-optimal 3 second transactions where you have people fumbling for coins.

And based on what you're saying about the ticket machines, if nearly everyone were using a Leap card, the 2-3 second delay would occur a lot less frequently.

So that deals with the "what's the point?" question. There would be a dwell time reduction, albeit not as great as if there were a flat fare.

So the question remains, what's stopping this happening? A €3 cash fare would have 95% of people using a Leap card within a month (wild assumption on my part but stands to . Is the NTA afraid to sanction this? Or is Dublin Bus actually reliant on a proportion of its customers paying the higher cash fares indefinitely?

EDIT: Admittedly the "95% within a month" thing is a wild assumption, but I think it's probably a fair one. I'll try to look into uptake in other markets, and see if there's any precedent for this.

Richard Logue

Surely the time has come to eliminate the Dublin Bus stage fare system which itself is a hangover from the old DUTC Trams?

Seperating the Dublin Short Hop zone into an inner and outer zone, charging flat fares would greatly simplify the Leap system.

etchyed

Richard Logue wrote: »

Surely the time has come to eliminate the Dublin Bus stage fare system which itself is a hangover from the old DUTC Trams?

Seperating the Dublin Short Hop zone into an inner and outer zone, charging flat fares would greatly simplify the Leap system.

Two zones would still require either driver interaction or tagging off.

Whilst I think everyone agrees a flat fare would be best, it would require a subsidy increase, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

Posy

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't really see the point given the hassle of it and having to interact with the driver anyway. Incentivise it for what reason? It takes even longer than cash from what I can see, I don't think we need more delays

These are two major downsides to the leap card. I still don't understand why there is no tag on/tag off system. It's essentially the same as paying cash. It seems so pointless- and it's quicker to pay with cash, so in that respect cash is easier.
Plus, I'm never sure when the transaction is actually finished- there is no obvious signal to remove the card. It's much simpler to just use a rambler.

It would also be good if there was a maximum daily fare- like you can't go over €8 in a day, for example.

bk

Ideally a flat cash fare of €3 in conjunction with a flat leap fare (e.g. €1.50) with no driver interaction required.

If that isn't possible at least make leap tag-on/tag-off with a reasonable max fare.

MGWR

etchyed wrote: »

Can't be bothered looking for one of the Leap megathreads, and I think this particular aspect could do with a thread of its own. Apologies if it's been discussed already.

It's been a while since I've had cause to use a Dublin Bus service, but on the last occasion I did (which was late last year) I still seemed to be in the minority of users in using a Leap Card, almost a year after the system's introduction. Based on AlekSmart's posts here, this would still seem to be a problem.

Tiresome as it may be to constantly make comparisons with Oyster, I'm gonna do it anyway. If I remember correctly, at the time of introduction, the Oyster card offered £0.90 fares to its users, while the cash fare was £2. The incentive to adopt a smartcard ASAP was pretty clear cut.

Here, we've got Leap fares 25-30c cheaper than cash. For an occasional bus user, the 15 or so journeys you have to make to recoup the €5 Leap card deposit just doesn't seem worth it. A €3 cash fare would put paid to that situation pretty quickly.

Obviously, there are plenty of reasons why Dublin Bus are reluctant to do this. Unlike TfL, they don't have buckets of money to throw around, and are probably afraid of driving away custom. They also have less of an incentive to switch to all-Leap transactions, as the time savings they would gain are not as much as they could be, due to the retention of the fare stage system and resulting necessity for Leap users to interact with the driver (I still think tag-on-tag-off would work better, even with single door buses, but that's a whole other conversation).

So, what do we reckon? A useful tool in eradicating cash transactions or an unfair penalty on the unprepared? And is it even worth bothering while the driver interaction remains?

It'd be a useful tool to get people to keep driving their cars. The government responding to people voting with their feet by forcing draconian measures on them to induce them to accept a system they've rejected will result in a new government next election cycle.

And a flat fare requiring an increased subsidy? Not if the ridership goes up as a consequence. People want less complication rather than more; being able to get on a bus paying a flat fare and that's the end of the hassle would make the bus more attractive. DB fares are already among the highest on the planet, never mind just Europe; imagine charging the equivalent of €3 in New York City (which works out to about $3.91 USD at the time of writing, and at various times it was higher when the euro was worth more).

mikemac1

A smartcard that requires you to talk to the driver is not a smart card

Travel 90 suits me just fine

eejoynt

I use the bus occasionally, I think that the number of leap card users is gradually increasing, the card is aimed at the occasional traveller, as the other cards are more beneficial to the regular user.
The pool of potential converters is therefore presumably the occasional bus user, a difficult group to define still less to target

How about a 4 euro leap card if bought in db o Connell street with change receipts?

Or a giveaway policy with high value products in a store like DID?

AlekSmart

MGWR wrote: »

.

And a flat fare requiring an increased subsidy? Not if the ridership goes up as a consequence. People want less complication rather than more; being able to get on a bus paying a flat fare and that's the end of the hassle would make the bus more attractive. DB fares are already among the highest on the planet, never mind just Europe; imagine charging the equivalent of €3 in New York City (which works out to about $3.91 USD at the time of writing, and at various times it was higher when the euro was worth more).

I would have to disagree here.

One of the main benefits of the historic Fare Stage system is it's inherent ability to cater for as wide a customer requirement as possible.

You will struggle to find a baseline cash fare of €1.65 in an EU major Capital City.

Equally the maximum 13-23 stage fare of €2.80 still compares well with cash fares EU wide.

The greatest difference between Dublin and the Rest of the World is the extent to which Farebox Revenue (ie: CASH) makes up the service providers revenue stream.

This report although dated 2000 outlines the significant disparity in funding,which then carries on into the general lack of regard for our Public Transport Systems in General...

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2567.pdf

96% Farebox vs 4% Subsidy/Grant,we are at this level in somewhat rarefied company,essentially Lady Thatchers UK/Scotland and Norway.

Most other civilized and largely well regarded Urban Public Transport systems hover around the 50/50 split,a figure which if applied to Dublin would,of itself,allow for a significant service improvement.

However,given our continuing native Political pre-occupation with the Public Transport Policies of Lady Thatcher and Nicholas Ridley,any admission that they do not work is unlikely in our lifetime.

Instead we appear stuck with an Administrative System wedded to introducing all manner of high-profile technoloigical advances,but then emasculating these,in order to maintain the Status Quo,itself usually firmly embedded in 19th Century practices.

It must be noted that current Government Policy is firmly based upon Public Transport Users paying as close to the actual cost of their service as possible.

This ensures that Irish Public Transport,far from being made to appeal to the masses,is firmly being removed from the list of available options,a policy which,as in the UK,will result in vast numbers of persons entitled to Free Public Transport Use,but with almost NO services available on which to use it .......I doubt very much whether Leo Varadakar and his advisors have taken much interest in the UK's current Public Transport situation,but they really should....;)

AlekSmart

eejoynt wrote: »

I use the bus occasionally, I think that the number of leap card users is gradually increasing, the card is aimed at the occasional traveller, as the other cards are more beneficial to the regular user.
The pool of potential converters is therefore presumably the occasional bus user, a difficult group to define still less to target

How about a 4 euro leap card if bought in db o Connell street with change receipts?

Or a giveaway policy with high value products in a store like DID?

At this juncture,Leapcard needs to be distriubuted to as large a demographic as possible.

Somebody needs to accept that they have to take a hit in getting the damn thing out there...:eek:

Give it away FREE with stuff...Target the (Non Student) youth market,do anything,but get it moving,as the current stagnation is reverse engineering itself into a stream of Negativity.

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Once the screen appears,the actual Leapcard Fare process is of the 1 second variety,with perhaps a tiny delay caused by the user verifying their balance display before removing their card.

This is one thing I haven't known for sure. Is it ok to remove the card as soon as the button is pressed? I know a green light appears after a bit but I've been getting the impression that I don't have to wait for it.

etchyed

MGWR wrote: »

It'd be a useful tool to get people to keep driving their cars. The government responding to people voting with their feet by forcing draconian measures on them to induce them to accept a system they've rejected will result in a new government next election cycle.

Leap hasn't been rejected - people just haven't bothered to get one so far, as the incentive hasn't been great enough. Introducing a high cash fare to incentivise smart card use is not new - it's been done elsewhere without politicians quaking in their boots about being kicked out of government. I have no idea where you got that from. This is hardly and election-losing issue.

And a flat fare requiring an increased subsidy? Not if the ridership goes up as a consequence. People want less complication rather than more; being able to get on a bus paying a flat fare and that's the end of the hassle would make the bus more attractive.

A flat fare would not increase ridership to the extent that it would pay for itself. Bus fare elasticities are simply not that high, and I think you overstate the extent to which people value the flat fare.

I agree with having a flat fare - I think it would make the whole system run a lot more smoothly. But in order to avoid disproportionately penalising people travelling short distances, it would have to be set relatively low. This would attract some bus users due to the increased simplicity and lower fares. But definitely not enough new users to pay for itself.

DB fares are already among the highest on the planet, never mind just Europe; imagine charging the equivalent of €3 in New York City (which works out to about $3.91 USD at the time of writing, and at various times it was higher when the euro was worth more).

The bus market in the US is entirely different from that in Europe, so this is not a reasonable comparison.

Nermal

etchyed wrote: »

Whilst I think everyone agrees a flat fare would be best, it would require a subsidy increase, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

Why? Just add up current fare income and divide by the number of journeys.

Obviously shorter journeys will become more expensive: so what?

Just do it, and whack on a massive premium for using cash.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

At this juncture,Leapcard needs to be distriubuted to as large a demographic as possible.

Why? At this point in time, Leap is only useful to occasional public transport users. Giving cards out to lots people who can't use it because they can't (yet) load weekly, monthly or annual tickes or benefit from capping or transfers wouldn't help anyone.

When those features are ready and available, I'd agree 100% with you - they should be posting cards out to every address in the city and giving them out on street corners. However the best way to encourage adoption of Leap is for DB to price it correctly. Small differences between cash and Leap fares is not going to work.

Once the technical stuff is sorted out, it will live or die with Dublin Bus. They're the biggest public transport operator in the city and they're the only one who can't accept debit cards, credit cards or notes. Leap removes the need to prepare for a bus journey and make it more spontaneous and more convenient.

etchyed

Nermal wrote: »

Why? Just add up current fare income and divide by the number of journeys.

Obviously shorter journeys will become more expensive: so what?

So, that would be politically unacceptable and will not be allowed by the NTA. A flat fare should have and would have been introduced with Leap if it was ever going to happen. It would also drive some those shorter journey passengers away, leading to loss of revenue, which would not necessarily be made up for by an increase in longer journey passengers.

Just to be clear here, because there are a lot of people chiming in with this opinion, EVERYONE AGREES that a flat fare would be best. However, one of the assumptions forming the basis for this thread is that realistically, it's not going to happen any time soon. The flat fare and its merits have also been discussed at length in other threads.

I intended for this to be a discussion of one specific aspect of Leap: the use of high cash fares to incentivise its use. I realise the issues aren't entirely separable, but I wish people would accept the premise that flat fares are both expensive and unlikely to happen in Dublin, a premise which I didn't just pull out of my arse.

Dravokivich

markpb wrote: »

Why? At this point in time, Leap is only useful to occasional public transport users. Giving cards out to lots people who can't use it because they can't (yet) load weekly, monthly or annual tickes or benefit from capping or transfers wouldn't help anyone.

When those features are ready and available, I'd agree 100% with you - they should be posting cards out to every address in the city and giving them out on street corners. However the best way to encourage adoption of Leap is for DB to price it correctly. Small differences between cash and Leap fares is not going to work.

Once the technical stuff is sorted out, it will live or die with Dublin Bus. They're the biggest public transport operator in the city and they're the only one who can't accept debit cards, credit cards or notes. Leap removes the need to prepare for a bus journey and make it more spontaneous and more convenient.

Just regarding the last paragraph, a lot of issues regarding usability are down to Irish rail, more so than Dublin bus. The amount of complaints in the metro last week was unreal. I've even seen their staff say some woeful stuff to people looking for advise on what happens when a train gets cancelled recently. Wouldn't tell them they just needed to tag off.

bk

etchyed the problem though is that Leap is often actually slower then cash.

So if you introduce a high cash fare, but not fix the fundamental problem of driver interaction, then all you achieve is even higher dwell times.

Leap uptake should only be pushed when driver interaction is done away with, either with a Leap card flat fare or tag-on/tag-off system.

bk

Nermal wrote: »

Why? Just add up current fare income and divide by the number of journeys.

Obviously shorter journeys will become more expensive: so what?

Actually if you did that, based on the 2011 figures, a ticket would cost €1.45 per journey. So it would actually be cheaper for most people. The only ones for whom it would be more expensive would be child fares.

To be honest I've always sort of questioned the thinking behind a child fare. Doesn't a child (beyond an infant on your lap) take up as much space as an adult. So why give them a cheaper fare?

Or instead rebalance so it is something like €1.60 adult flat leap fare, €1 child.

And you know what I think it would be worth it for the overall cheaper prices, reduced dwell times and greater uptake.

I think DB would actually end up making more money from such a fare, thanks to reduction in fraud and increased take up due to the cheaper fare and faster journey times. Also if they do this in conjunction with a flat cash fare of €3, they would make extra money from tourists and people slow to move over to leap.

etchyed

bk wrote: »

etchyed the problem though is that Leap is often actually slower then cash.

So if you introduce a high cash fare, but not fix the fundamental problem of driver interaction, then all you achieve is even higher dwell times.

bk, I appreciate you trying to explain this to me (genuinely, no sarcasm) but in the course of this thread (which is only two pages long, but I'll recap for you anyway) I have:

- Acknowledged that this is a problem

etchyed - Post #1 wrote: »

And is it even worth bothering while the driver interaction remains?

- Acknowledged that Leap card actually being slower is a potential problem

etchyed - Post #7 wrote: »

If the NTA and Dublin Bus have managed to introduce a smart ticketing system that would actually increase bus stop dwell times were it used to its full extent, then that really is quite special. A world first, perhaps.

- Asked a bus driver for his opinion

etchyed - Post#7 wrote: »

I wonder if you're able to say, on average, whether cash transactions or Leap transactions take longer to process.

- Got an answer

AlekSmart - Post #10 wrote: »

As a generalization,a non-contentions Cash Transaction without any Change Ticket can be accomplished in under 3 seconds (This is the comparator I use for Leapcard Transactions which are changeless transactions)

If I process such a Cash Fare customer,and they are immediately followed by a Leapcard Holder,then it can involve this incredible 2-3 second lag,before the screen defaults.

Once the screen appears,the actual Leapcard Fare process is of the 1 second variety,with perhaps a tiny delay caused by the user verifying their balance display before removing their card.

If then,a number of Leapcard Transactions follow together,it is very fast,with each card being recognised immediately.

However,break that Leapcard Stride with another Cash Transaction and you are back to square one.

- And finally, made an assumption, based on that answer, that boarding would indeed be faster if everyone was using a Leap card. I don't think this is unreasonable.

etchyed - Post #11 wrote: »

...as all Leap transactions are changeless, a wider adoption of Leap card would lead to a reduction in transactions requiring change, along with a reduction in those non-optimal 3 second transactions where you have people fumbling for coins.

And based on what you're saying about the ticket machines, if nearly everyone were using a Leap card, the 2-3 second delay would occur a lot less frequently.

So that deals with the "what's the point?" question. There would be a dwell time reduction, albeit not as great as if there were a flat fare.

So, am I wrong? I don't deny that using a Leap card can sometimes take a stupidly long time. So I'll defer again to the bus driver(s) here. Would it be faster if 95% of your current cash fare passengers paid with a Leap card, retaining the current fare structure?

LXFlyer

A few points on this:

1) LEAP has a phased rollout (as indeed did Oyster) and it's fairly obvious that as such the administrators planned a soft launch with a gradual take up, thereby minimising mass chaos if things went wrong with the system.

2) It has already been indicated in the last NTA fare determination report that the DB fare system will be overhauled in the next 18 months or so. What the final setup is has yet to be determined according to that report.

3) I imagine that given the perilous state of DB finances that they would regard any switch to a flat fare as a risky move. Remember that the primary source of company income is fare box revenue and the company cannot risk that falling.

It's very easy to say sitting at a key board that ridership would increase, but without access to the fare profiles how can any of us say that with any degree of certainty? We can't. However, flat fares tend to be more prevalent in cities with high degrees of subsidy, something our government tends not to be too enthused about. I personally suspect it would have a negative impact on overall fare box revenue as people making shorter trips reduce in number.

Personally while I obviously see the benefit of a flat fare in terms of ease of use, unless government is prepared to increase subsidies (unlikely) I would imagine some form of zonal structure will be what we end up with, along with tag on tag off.

Stark

Posy wrote: »

Plus, I'm never sure when the transaction is actually finished- there is no obvious signal to remove the card. It's much simpler to just use a rambler.

I usually get a grunt from the driver

mikemac1 wrote: »

A smartcard that requires you to talk to the driver is not a smart card

Travel 90 suits me just fine

Pity they seem to be doing their damndest to make that option also unattractive. €25 now for a book of 10!

bk

etchyed wrote: »

So, am I wrong? I don't deny that using a Leap card can sometimes take a stupidly long time. So I'll defer again to the bus driver(s) here. Would it be faster if 95% of your current cash fare passengers paid with a Leap card, retaining the current fare structure?

I think you would be wrong, even a few cash customers in amongst the leap users would have it switching back to the cash screen thus slowing things down.

Also any speed up would be negligible compared to the gain you would get with either leap card flat fare or tag-on/tag-off. So I honestly don't think it is worth doing just for the sake of boosting leap up take.

This sort of thinking seems to be at the heart of the issues we have with the failed leap card system in the first place.

The goal of the leap card projects seems to be "introduce a contact less card ticketing system because it seems other cool cities have it" with no thought to what the benefit of such cards are.

What the goal of the project should have been is: "reduce boarding times and thus dwell times and simplify ticketing"

Pushing Leap take up just for the sake of it, misses the point of cards like this.

Leap should only be pushed hand in hand with efforts to reduce dwell time and simplify and integrate the whole ticketing system. It should be pushed when we move to either a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off.

Ixflyer you love to push the idea of flat fares requiring an increase in subsidies.

But as I have pointed out, that isn't necessary. A flat fare of €1.45 is possible today based on DB's own figures.

That would be a significant 20 cent to almost €3 saving for the majority of passengers and just a 45 cent increase for child fares.

I remember all this can be down with no loss to the fare box. They would make exactly the same amount of money they do today for the same number of passengers.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that there wouldn't be at least some increase in passenger numbers with prices dropping almost €3 and with it becoming simpler to use and understand and with reduced journey times!

There is very clear evidence that flat fares increase passenger numbers. When they introduced a flat fare in Brighton of £1, an increase over most fares, they actually saw an 8.5% increase in passenger numbers:

http://www.konsult.leeds.ac.uk/private/level2/instruments/instrument044/l2_044c.htm#d

http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/08/24/The+Argus+Archive/6774827.__1_bus_fare_will_stay/

Likewise passenger numbers increased on London Bus since the introduction of their flat fare.

Here is another example of such innovative thinking, a 38% increase in passenger numbers after they introduced a low flat fare:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/may/12/transportintheuk

dowlingm

There used to be zones in Toronto and they were got rid of once the subway reached the suburbs in a few places. You will get a certain resentment in some quarters that the $3 cash/$2.65 token fare is the same for 5 stops as 50 (including transfers to/from other routes/modes)

As for LEAP - I think Londoners would probably tell you Oyster had its own issues and if you pick one card for everywhere then the vendor can name their price and security vulnerabilities can cause panic in multiple places at once. Meanwhile the Toronto regional transport people are rolling out Presto, a bespoke system which they are now imposing on the City's transport system which would rather something else. Presto having had some craptacular failures is not helping.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I think you would be wrong, even a few cash customers in amongst the leap users would have it switching back to the cash screen thus slowing things down.

Also any speed up would be negligible compared to the gain you would get with either leap card flat fare or tag-on/tag-off. So I honestly don't think it is worth doing just for the sake of boosting leap up take.

This sort of thinking seems to be at the heart of the issues we have with the failed leap card system in the first place.

The goal of the leap card projects seems to be "introduce a contact less card ticketing system because it seems other cool cities have it" with no thought to what the benefit of such cards are.

What the goal of the project should have been is: "reduce boarding times and thus dwell times and simplify ticketing"

Pushing Leap take up just for the sake of it, misses the point of cards like this.

Leap should only be pushed hand in hand with efforts to reduce dwell time and simplify and integrate the whole ticketing system. It should be pushed when we move to either a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off.

Ixflyer you love to push the idea of flat fares requiring an increase in subsidies.

But as I have pointed out, that isn't necessary. A flat fare of €1.45 is possible today based on DB's own figures.

That would be a significant 20 cent to almost €3 saving for the majority of passengers and just a 45 cent increase for child fares.

I remember all this can be down with no loss to the fare box. They would make exactly the same amount of money they do today for the same number of passengers.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that there wouldn't be at least some increase in passenger numbers with prices dropping almost €3 and with it becoming simpler to use and understand and with reduced journey times!

There is very clear evidence that flat fares increase passenger numbers. When they introduced a flat fare in Brighton of £1, an increase over most fares, they actually saw an 8.5% increase in passenger numbers:

http://www.konsult.leeds.ac.uk/private/level2/instruments/instrument044/l2_044c.htm#d

http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/08/24/The+Argus+Archive/6774827.__1_bus_fare_will_stay/

Likewise passenger numbers increased on London Bus since the introduction of their flat fare.

Here is another example of such innovative thinking, a 38% increase in passenger numbers after they introduced a low flat fare:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/may/12/transportintheuk

Firstly it's LXflyer - at least get that much right!! ;-)

Secondly, I'd prefer if you didn't personalise this. I'm not trying to "push" anything - I merely stated my opinion.

The introduction of a flat fare in London also coincided with a large increase in subsidies (part funded by the congestion charge) so it's not quite as black and white as you seem to think.

I can't see a flat fare of less than any of the current fares being viable? Where are you getting that figure from?

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I can't see a flat fare of less than any of the current fares being viable? Where are you getting that figure from?

Dublin Bus 2011 annual report.

Plus you ignored my info about the Brighton Bus service which doesn't get a subsidy and yet passenger numbers increased by 8.5% after the introduction of a flat fare.

LXFlyer

I didn't comment on Brighton as I'd need to read up on it first and I've only a relatively brief amount of free wifi in the airport that I'm currently transiting - but I will!

the groutch

I'm surprised there hasnt been any card only buses yet on the major routes at peak times, if the switching from cash to leap and back is such a time eater, just have some buses that they don't take cash at all, eg. every 2nd 46a between 7am and 9am.

Polar101

I think there's definitely something wrong with the system, when I'm required to carry three different kinds of ticket in order to get the optimum fare - I only travel on Dublin Bus. My employer (the useless ****s) stopped doing the TaxSaver scheme, so now I have a Leap card for those single €1.40 journeys, a Travel 90 for two €1.40 journeys and a Rambler ticket for the days when I do more traveling. I'd buy a monthly ticket if it was better value - annual ticket would be nice, but I never have that much money saved up that I could actually buy one.

Bring on the Leap Card with more ticket options, I guess.

LoonyLovegood

The leap system has some serious problems. I have one - it's built into all student travelcards - but I use a rambler instead, as it's cheaper to have a five day rambler than pay two €2.45 fares. If they want to make it work, a flat fare works better - Say €2 for adults, €1 for children, with leap fares being cheaper - perhaps €1.50 and 75c?

dowlingm

It's so ridiculous that the Taxsaver is tied to your employer. I can't see the sense in differentiating between people because one employer is cooperative and the other isn't.

Tar.Aldarion

They are not taken up because the difference is usually about what, 25 cent? It's not a big a gap as it should be to reel people in. It's so slow also. I have one but dont bother using it.

AlekSmart

Stark wrote: »

Pity they seem to be doing their damndest to make that option also unattractive. €25 now for a book of 10!

The situation with the last T90 increase was indeed interesting...The Company had requested an increase of 9.3% from €21.50 to €23.50....However the NTA in a move designed to reduce the increasing popularity of the T90 implimented an increase of 16.28% to €25.00.

So Stark,whilst you are quite correct regarding the pricing policy,you need to be clear as to who is actually calling the shots here....The NTA.

http://nationaltransport.ie.cdn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Consideration-of-applications-to-increase-cash-Leap-and-pre-paid-tickets.pdf

Furthermore, for those customers who use their 10 Journey Travel 90 ticket
(originally conceived
for second or more journeys within 90 minutes)
without interchanging with another bus, it is
now cheaper to use a Leap card for the over 13 stages fare band, e.g.
The Travel 90 adult 10 journey ticket is= €25.00
Whereas,the Over 13 stages Leap fare is €2.45 times 10 journeys = €24.50

I feel it shows an incredible lack of comprehension about what the scope of properly thought out Integrated Ticketing can do,instead with the Cash vs Prepaid split remaining resolutely 50/50,the NTA go off on a tangential attack on Travel 90 users.

foggy_lad

A €3 minimum fare is going to lose more money than it would generate in Leap card revenue and from the exhorbitant fares, most people using the lower fares for short jopurneys are those who can not afford any further rise in fares. if fares increase they will just make alternative arrangements and many will lose an element of independance they have because of the cheaper fares for shorter journeys. think of the thousands of kids attending after school activities and other saturday events as well as the mothers doing shopping trips on the bus. At the moment these people are not causing any delays to boarding/dwell times as they know their fare and always have their change ready, they throw the cash in the chute and grab their ticket and are gone up the steps in a flash.

The leap card is not much use to anyone who uses the bus for shorter journeys as it takes too long and there are too many mistakes so people don't trust it. They must que up to pay cash only now they must present the card to the drivers machine in a particular way or it wont read, they then must wait for some sign from the driver and tell him/her the fare they want and wait for the ticket machine to roar slowly into action and deduct the fare, then they must wait for another signal from the driver that the operation has been a success. A mistake, moving the card or pulling it away too soon will result in extra delays as the driver waits for the machine to reset itself and for the passenger to start the whole sorry set of actions again! some passengers would be quicker walking!

MGWR

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would have to disagree here.

One of the main benefits of the historic Fare Stage system is its inherent ability to cater for as wide a customer requirement as possible.

You will struggle to find a baseline cash fare of €1.65 in an EU major Capital City.

Equally the maximum 13-23 stage fare of €2.80 still compares well with cash fares EU wide.

The greatest difference between Dublin and the Rest of the World is the extent to which Farebox Revenue (ie: CASH) makes up the service providers revenue stream.

This report although dated 2000 outlines the significant disparity in funding, which then carries on into the general lack of regard for our Public Transport Systems in General...

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2567.pdf

96% Farebox vs 4% Subsidy/Grant,we are at this level in somewhat rarefied company, essentially Lady Thatchers UK/Scotland and Norway.

Most other civilized and largely well regarded Urban Public Transport systems hover around the 50/50 split, a figure which if applied to Dublin would, of itself, allow for a significant service improvement.

However, given our continuing native Political pre-occupation with the Public Transport Policies of Lady Thatcher and Nicholas Ridley, any admission that they do not work is unlikely in our lifetime.

Instead we appear stuck with an Administrative System wedded to introducing all manner of high-profile technological advances, but then emasculating these in order to maintain the Status Quo, itself usually firmly embedded in 19th Century practices.

It must be noted that current Government Policy is firmly based upon Public Transport Users paying as close to the actual cost of their service as possible.

This ensures that Irish Public Transport, far from being made to appeal to the masses, is firmly being removed from the list of available options, a policy which, as in the UK, will result in vast numbers of persons entitled to Free Public Transport Use, but with almost NO services available on which to use it .......I doubt very much whether Leo Varadakar and his advisors have taken much interest in the UK's current Public Transport situation, but they really should....;)

But how does the company cater to a wide customer requirement when the fare-stage system narrows the field down? The driver can't keep track of who paid a three-stage fare because he's got to watch the road, and back when there were conductors, there was enough trouble tracking such fare payments as well even with inspectors boarding at random. This is why there were "Minimum Fare" buses in the first place, especially during peak hours, and on these buses the fare system was down to a flat fare system (excepting outer suburban) merely out of need.

I still have to insist that the only way to maximise revenue (if such is CIE's goal in reality) is to appeal to the masses that have rejected public transport due to the retention of arcane practices (among other things), and those are the car drivers. Like I said, when it comes to this Leap Card, the passengers have voted with their feet, and many of these passengers now have accelerator, brake and clutch pedals under their feet instead of the floor of a bus.

AlekSmart

Interesting development today,and a welcome boost for the ITS principle.

http://wexfordbus.com/fares/leap-card/

The ability to Top-Up on board is going to be a useful facility I suspect ?

Topping up your Leap Card

You can top up your Leap Card in Leap Card agents, or on Wexford Bus services by €5, €10, €20 or €50. Present your card and the cash to the driver and ask to top up by the desired amount.

Anybody know the Ticket Machine type in use ?

bk

And perhaps even more significantly, it supports weekly tickets, a first for leap card. Perhaps we will soon seen the various DB, Luas, IR period tickets finally arrive on Leap:

How do I purchase a weekly ticket on Wexford Bus with my Leap Card?

Present your Leap Card to the driver and request a Leap Weekly ticket to your chosen destination.

Let the driver know how you would like to pay for your ticket i.e. Cash or Travel Credit
If paying by Cash, give the driver the fare in cash. Place your Leap Card onto the Leap Card validator when advised to do so and your ticket will be issued to your Leap Card.A message saying Ticket Issued & Used will appear to denote that the validity period has commenced.
If paying using Travel Credit on your card, place your Leap Card onto the Leap Card validator. The driver will then deduct your fare from your Travel Credit and your ticket will be issued to your Leap Card. A message saying Ticket Issued & Used will appear to denote that the validity period has commenced.
For the remainder of the week (ticket is valid till midnight on the 7th day), present the Leap Card to the Leap Card Validator as you board the bus. Listen out for the beep which records that your ticket has been successfully used.

LeinsterDub

The lack of auto top up is a major issue ( i know they are trialling it but it's seems be taking ages)

...Me and OH go to get the bus. We walk to the stop , no shop around , her crap I forgot to top up my card I'll just use cash this time remind me to top it up...... Me and OH go to get the bus

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah really cant be bothered with the current top up system, it needs ease of use.

Boulevardier

I agree that having to pay 5 Euro just for the piece of plastic is totally excessive and a major disincentive to uptake. 2 Euro would have been much more sensible.

I also feel that stating your destination to a driver is far from foolproof, and I am not clear about what comeback you have if the driver makes a mistake.

However, WTF should I have to pay 3 Euro for a ride? As it is, my local daily fare went up from 1.90 to 2.15 last yeear, which is proportinally worse than the higher fare of 2.65 which went up to 2.80.

I vote an emphatic no to premium single fares, particularly as a way of strongarming people into buying leap cards. Such fares are anti-passenger and anti-environment.

bk

Boulevardier wrote: »

I agree that having to pay 5 Euro just for the piece of plastic is totally excessive and a major disincentive to uptake. 2 Euro would have been much more sensible.

In Atlanta, their equivalent card costs just $1.

Boulevardier wrote: »

I vote an emphatic no to premium single fares, particularly as a way of strongarming people into buying leap cards. Such fares are anti-passenger and anti-environment.

Typically smart cards with flat fares actually increase passenger numbers. They make the service easier to use and understand and reduce journey times due to reduced dwell times.

I agree that introducing a flat cash fare without also introducing a much cheaper leap card flat fare would be a no goer.

trellheim

I wait for the green light on the driver's machine if using Leap. In some cases it can take quite some time for the machine to do this, as has been pointed out above.