High Court ruling helps put beggars back on our streets

ArmaniJeanss

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Lately it hasn't even been under the pretense of begging, now it tends to involve begging in town on nights out, going into crowds coming out of nightclubs asking for change, and only when you're half way home do you realize that someone's pickpocketed your smartphone. Their faces are recognizable, everyone knows it's the same crew night after night, so why is it so hard to get any arrests or convictions?

Fairly sure the Gardai did an undercover op in Temple Bar Dublin a few months ago and arrested loads. Obviously its still an ongoing problem though as either there is a new batch of thieves ready to take their place, or else the originals aren't imprisoned by the courts.

Honestly think someday it'll end in bad violence when they rob the wrong people (a bunch of drunked up stag partiers from England perhaps).

******
Edit : Links (admittedly from the Evening Herald)
Last week gardai from Pearse Street and Store Street stations arrested 21 suspects from Romania and Bulgaria who had travelled to Dublin "specifically to embark on a wave of street thefts and thefts in pubs and clubs."
http://www.herald.ie/news/gangs-flying-in-to-steal-iphones-29130404.html

The special operation, which is part of the gardai's clampdown on street crime codenamed Operation Aughrim, led to the mass arrests on Friday and Saturday night in Dublin city centre.
All the suspects are Romanian nationals aged between 16 and 40 and were picked up in the Grafton Street, Temple Bar and Nassau Street areas of the city centre.
http://www.herald.ie/news/19-arrested-as-pickpocket-gang-smashed-28850871.html

shruikan2553

I wondering at what stage it is considered harassment and you're allowed to defend yourself, Im guessing you have to wait until they touch you.

Kill anyone who uses a child as an aid in begging.

Most of the Roma beggars are apparently under the thumb of some guy who makes them beg so I'm amazed the usual uber-lefties on here are in favour of this ruling which effectively gets rid of the only tool that could be used to break up how easily these enterprises which subjugate women operate.

Pumpkinseeds

Meh, what a load of old cobblers. I have never seen a licensed charity collector sitting on the ground begging with a cup. I thought ignorance of the law was not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Surely someone begging/collecting money on the street without a licence would be breaking the law?

A Romanian gypsy using Irish courts to successfully get away with crime, aren't we all so glad Romania is part of the EU. I'm sure they'll have many more interesting cases before the Irish courts in the future and contrbute so much to this country:rolleyes:

WoollyRedHat

mickgotsick wrote: »

Any spare change for a hostel?

I had one ask me for a few bob for the shelbourne a while ago... cheecky fecker

suicide_circus

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Meh, what a load of old cobblers. I have never seen a licensed charity collector sitting on the ground begging with a cup. I thought ignorance of the law was not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Surely someone begging/collecting money on the street without a licence would be breaking the law?

A Romanian gypsy using Irish courts to successfully get away with crime, aren't we all so glad Romania is part of the EU. I'm sure they'll have many more interesting cases before the Irish courts in the future and contrbute so much to this country:rolleyes:

Once again they are Roma who just happen to be from Romania. They are a distinct ethnic group with their origins in the Indian sub continent. Our own Irish gypsys are no great shakes either.

Odysseus

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I wondering at what stage it is considered harassment and you're allowed to defend yourself, Im guessing you have to wait until they touch you.

If you have to defend yourself I don't think you are dealing with a begger.

I don't encounter much if any aggressive begging walking around Dublin; same with addicts begging or tapping up, I find that it is all over as soon as I say "Sorry mate, no chance"

suicide_circus

mikemac1 wrote: »

Where do the Roma live anyway?

I see them on the Red Line Luas many mornings but they get on before me so I don't know where they are coming from. Possibly Bluebell?

Heading into the city centre to get their patch and beg for the day

Couple of women and just one man, a huge guy who walks around like he's the boss

Quite a few live in squalid tenements around Dorset St, South Circular Road, Mountjoy Sq. They are well known in Romania for absolutely wrecking any accommodation they have and living in filthy conditions due to their own negligence and lack of regard for the state. Sound familiar?

Feathers

laoch na mona wrote: »

burden of proof is a well established standard in law
meaning that if someone accuses you they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. its a good system which ensures no one is assumed guilty without proof, of course nothing works all of the time but there is no better alternative

also why do beggars annoy some people so much? I Know they shouldn't be doing it but its not that big a deal just ignore them

The burden of proof in the first instance is with the Gardaí, but that would be to establish that the person was begging. Once they've seen them collect money, the burden of proof shifts to the beggar, who has to prove they're doing so legally.

It's like anything else - a TV licence inspector has to prove you've a TV first, but then you have to prove you've a licence. In a suspected shebeen, the Garda has to prove you're selling drink, then you've to prove you've a licence, etc. etc.

The burden of proof doesn't stay with the Gardaí to prove you don't have a licence. (That would be ridiculous).

Pumpkinseeds

We're assuming that all of the Romanians begging on the streets are gypsies, which may or may not be the case. I'll probably be savaged for this comment but here goes anyway, I don't believe that anyone who cannot speak fluent English should be allowed to immigrate to this country. Anyone wanting to move here should be willing to work to earn a living.

Madam_X

Yeh they're Roma - and they are gypsies. The term Roma applies to a gypsy culture... not Romanians. Maybe the confusion comes from the word "Roma" being part of the word "Romania" and the fact that some Roma gypsies come from Romania.

Yeh people who emigrate here should work. Not always necessary for them to have fluent English though - e.g. if they're not dealing with the public or if they're working in somewhere that caters for people of their nationality.

Pumpkinseeds

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh they're Roma - and they are gypsies. The term Roma applies to a gypsy culture... not Romanians. Maybe the confusion comes from the word "Roma" being part of the word "Romania" and the fact that some Roma gypsies come from Romania.

Yeh people who emigrate here should work. Not always necessary for them to have fluent English though - e.g. if they're not dealing with the public or if they're working in somewhere that caters for people of their nationality.

Nobody can state with 100% certainty that every person from Romania, begging on the streets of Ireland is a Roma gypsy any more than they can state with the same certainty that every beggar on the streets of Ireland is genuinely homeless. Speaking English even at a basic level should be compulsory for anyone coming to live here, regardless of whether or not they intend only to work with people who speak their own language.

Death and Taxes

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Nobody can state with 100% certainty that every person from Romania, begging on the streets of Ireland is a Roma gypsy any more than they can state with the same certainty that every beggar on the streets of Ireland is genuinely homeless. Speaking English even at a basic level should be compulsory for anyone coming to live here, regardless of whether or not they intend only to work with people who speak their own language.

Rubbish!
Firstly brush up on Roma, try a basic google search.
Secondly, despite your wishes the happy position is that any EU citizen can come here to live without requiring to speak English, long may that remain the position.

Pumpkinseeds

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Rubbish!
Firstly brush up on Roma, try a basic google search.
Secondly, despite your wishes the happy position is that any EU citizen can come here to live without requiring to speak English, long may that remain the position.

Each to their own Wiley. Go chat with every beggar on the streets of this country,regardless of their nationality and get back to me when you can give me 100% proof that I'm wrong. Bloody pc nonsense didn't take long:rolleyes:

Madam_X

I don't think anyone's saying every Roma gypsy is from Romania, other than you earlier.

Yeh I agree fluent English isn't necessary.

Peanut

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh they're Roma - and they are gypsies. The term Roma applies to a gypsy culture... not Romanians. Maybe the confusion comes from the word "Roma" being part of the word "Romania" and the fact that some Roma gypsies come from Romania.

In fairness, Romania easily has the single largest population of Roma in the EU.

Nevertheless, they're still a minority in that country, but can be over-representative of Romanians abroad since they are much more in the public eye compared to other immigrants/emigrants.

Chuck Stone

How about making it a fineable offence to give beggars money?

Would that work lads?

Lads?

Zen65

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Speaking English even at a basic level should be compulsory for anyone coming to live here, regardless of whether or not they intend only to work with people who speak their own language.

I imagine that if similar requirements had been imposed on the Irish emigrating to other countries many of them would have been sent back at the ports.

Z

AlekSmart

suicide_circus wrote: »

Quite a few live in squalid tenements around Dorset St, South Circular Road, Mountjoy Sq. They are well known in Romania for absolutely wrecking any accommodation they have and living in filthy conditions due to their own negligence and lack of regard for the state. Sound familiar?

Observant indeed

The individuals generally being commented upon here tend to operate in a tight geographical area.

Whilst a goodly number do indeed live in the area's you mention,they also have substantial living accomodation in Dublin 15.

It's very clear that these folks have the measure of the Big Thick Oul Irish Gard,and they now know the hoops through which the Gards can be forced to jump.

I'm lucky enough to work with a substantial number of Romanian and Bulgarian colleagues who have been very helpful in outlining how these families operate.

Many of the Dublin Roma,are in fact Bulgarian,and are fluent in a number of Central European dialects if not languages.

Knowing their lingo really IS a highly valuable asset,and has allows many of my colleagues to thwart these leeches before they acted.

The one MAJOR difference which my colleagues speak of is the ability of these beggars to confront a Garda on the street.

Put mildly,they are incredulous,as to a man,they say that "back home" such confrontation would simply not happen unless they wished to be sternly rebuked and perhaps even recieve a tap of a Policemans baton ( )

The DMU Gardai,in the City Centre Stations are well familiar with these people,but as with much else these days,their baton-arm is strapped tightly up behind their back.

Of course as some posters say,"It's not that big of a problem" or "What about The Bankers etc etc " so the traditional Irish safe-option of doing nothing is always available.

I believe that the Gardai need to get innovative and pro-active in their dealings with these people.

All arrestees be processed as s l o w l .......y as possible,with all documentation being translated,by hand,into the first official language for the accused.

However should the accused be amenable to it,a fast-track option could be made available involving supervised manual labour collecting and processing the discarded sacks of domestic waste lying all over err....Dorset St,South Circular Rd,Mountjoy Square ...Hmmmm what a happy coincidence..:p

The payment for such labour could,incredibly enough be made equal to the "Charge" for making a nuisance of yourself..

The IMF would see it as revenue-neutral,the longer term civilized residents of these streets would have the mounds of garbage removed and the Beggars would get some good physical exercise....Win-Win Situation ?

However I do concede it would seriously curtail the time available for Begging....unavoidable sadly....:rolleyes:

Nodin

Chuck Stone wrote: »

How about making it a fineable offence to give beggars money?

Would that work lads?

Lads?

Sure thats no fun. Think something that inspires commmunity spirirt. Something with torches and fire and stuff.

AlekSmart

Chuck Stone wrote: »

How about making it a fineable offence to give beggars money?

Would that work lads?

Lads?

Golly Chuck,you might just have something here....;)

Is'nt that what they're going to do with Sex..?

The offence will be paying for it,rather than charging for it...good sound logic there,so it might work equally well for Begging ...:o

AlekSmart

laoch na mona wrote: »

.
Why do beggars annoy some people so much? I Know they shouldn't be doing it but its not that big a deal just ignore them

Well it's clear that beggars don't annoy the honourable members of the High Courts.

They find your "Ignore them" advise quite pertinent.

This may well have something to do with the locations of their humble abodes,height of railings,gates etc and the amount of time their Honours spend walking amongst the great inwashed they profess to interpret the law for....;)

the groutch

the problem is the laxity of deportation laws, thanks to Brussells.

Chuck Stone

AlekSmart wrote: »

Sex..[...] The offence will be paying for it,rather than charging for it...good sound logic

Au contraire Rodders. I don't believe the sale and purchase on non-coercive sex should be illegal at all.

Criminalising prostitution is a total waste of tax-payer's money and a boon for those who work in the legal apparatus of the state. I'd much rather see it spent on clinics and other related services for sex workers.

Pumpkinseeds

Madam_X wrote: »

I don't think anyone's saying every Roma gypsy is from Romania, other than you earlier.

Yeh I agree fluent English isn't necessary.

I was referring both to the Roma and Romanians

suicide_circus

Heard on the radio there, a large amount if stolen property recovered from a house on..........south circular road

southsiderosie

Odysseus wrote: »

If you have to defend yourself I don't think you are dealing with a begger.

I don't encounter much if any aggressive begging walking around Dublin; same with addicts begging or tapping up, I find that it is all over as soon as I say "Sorry mate, no chance"

I think aggressive beggars also target people who seem like they might be more easily intimidates, namely women and older people. In Madrid, I actually had some Roma kids get up in my face because I wouldn't sign their petition (a well-known scam). He started cursing at me, and I have never had the urge to slap a child in my life the way I did then, but I ignored it and kept on going. But I've seen them drive female tourists to tears, they are so aggressive.

I haven't been there in about two years now, but I found the Roma beggars in Belfast to be much less aggressive than in other places. I have to wonder to what extent that stems from, um, 'alternative' means of dealing with street problems (note: I am not advocating burning people out of their homes!).

Chuck Stone

southsiderosie wrote: »

I am not advocating burning people out of their homes!.

Typical bleeding heart, liberal, lefty, pc-mad attitude that's destroying humanity.

bhamsteve

CJC999 wrote: »

The Gardai would have my full backing if they announced that they couldn't give a fcuk about beggars or licensing laws until
Such time as legislators rewrite laws to suit modern day life. This country is a complete mess and its legal system is archaic with ancient laws that are difficult to implement and even harder to enforce. No where else in the world do criminals and offenders get such leeway with the full backing of the legal profession who make a mint out of our free legal aid system arguing technicalities while forgetting about the offences that have been committed.

So you'd suspend the constitution, remove the tripartite division of power that has served the country well and form a police state? Because of beggars?