High Court ruling helps put beggars back on our streets

Cookie_Monster

Classy title from the Indo

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/high-court-ruling-helps-put-beggars-back-on-our-streets-29210883.html

But a High Court ruling that gardai have to establish that the person they stop begging does not have a licence under the Street and House to House Collection Act of 1962 – the law that governs charitable collections – has led to a number of begging convictions being struck out in the courts in recent weeks.

If they are stopped by gardai and asked if they have a permit to collect money under the 1962 Act they say they do not speak English and cannot understand.

So the beggars and chancers can now once again hassle and annoy everyone going about their business because AGS have to prove the don't have a permit rather than the beggars proving the do? More ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense.
How come I have to prove I have a driving licence to drive or age card for buying alcohol etc if asked yet they don't?

Grayson

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How come I have to prove I have a driving licence / age card for buying alcohol etc if asked yet they don't?

Because you look like a prepubescent boy?

DEFTLEFTHAND

The Blasket Islands is the location after the March on Dublin and controlled democracy is implemented. One Rule FF FG combined, the Future...

Guy:Incognito

Can I open a pub without a licence so and just claim not to understand when the gards come looking to see a licence?

bhamsteve

I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as

More ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense

The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.

Cookie_Monster

bhamsteve wrote: »

I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as
The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.

so what idiot wrote the law in that way when every other licence requiring law clearly puts the burden of proof on the person operating? Instead of relying on previous laws for wording and legal procedure they gone and created something new and different and pretty silly instead.

Pappa Charlie

bhamsteve wrote: »

I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as
The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.

The law wasn't bad until the ruling, another example of bad legislation when examined by the courts, the gardai can only work with what they were given which was clearly ****e!

bhamsteve

If the aim of the law is to prevent begging on the streets it is obviously not fit for purpose.
Probably an oversight by a TD who is worrying about paying his mortgage and how he will support himself in retirement.

Fr_Fitzexactly

Wait for it, next year the government will implement a begging licence. Pay €500 to the council to be allowed beg for the year and property tax for cardboard boxes depending on the size and number of blankets inside it

laoch na mona

burden of proof is a well established standard in law
meaning that if someone accuses you they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. its a good system which ensures no one is assumed guilty without proof, of course nothing works all of the time but there is no better alternative

also why do beggars annoy some people so much? I Know they shouldn't be doing it but its not that big a deal just ignore them

Damien360

laoch na mona wrote: »

burden of proof is a well established standard in law
meaning that if someone accuses you they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. its a good system which ensures no one is assumed guilty without proof, of course nothing works all of the time but there is no better alternative

also why do beggars annoy some people so much? I Know they shouldn't be doing it but its not that big a deal just ignore them

I am not sure where you live but in Dublin they are very aggressive. I have been followed for 20m with them in my face. you have to get very verbally agressive to get rid of them. Not nice if you are with your family.

Here in Newbridge the cops move them on but when they were washing windows with dirty water at the lights for whitewater to Main Street they gave women a very hard time banging on the windows and demanding money. Difficult to ignore that.

laoch na mona

Damien360 wrote: »

I am not sure where you live but in Dublin they are very aggressive. I have been followed for 20m with them in my face. you have to get very verbally agressive to get rid of them. Not nice if you are with your family.

Here in Newbridge the cops move them on but when they were washing windows with dirty water at the lights for whitewater to Main Street they gave women a very hard time banging on the windows and demanding money. Difficult to ignore that.

well then that is harassment and a crime on its own

I've only ever seen one aggressive beggar but then im not a dub so i don't claim to know how bad it is. I have noticed there are more beggars every time i go to Dublin

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

mickgotsick

Any spare change for a hostel?

Nodin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so what idiot wrote the law in that way when every other licence requiring law clearly puts the burden of proof on the person operating? Instead of relying on previous laws for wording and legal procedure they gone and created something new and different and pretty silly instead.

I'm glad you asked - Dermot Ahern was the minister. Another example of badlly thought out knee-jerk populism.

Damien360

laoch na mona wrote: »

well then that is harassment and a crime on its own

I've only ever seen one aggressive beggar but then im not a dub so i don't claim to know how bad it is. I have noticed there are more beggars every time i go to Dublin

It is now rare to get a passive beggar , I.e. one that just sits and begs .

Much more common to get the mobile one that follows your every step . It was a lot worse at every traffic light in Dublin a few years ago before the clampdown , particularily on n7 inbound past red cow and n4 outbound before m50 exit. This ruling will just allow them to return with the guards shrugging their shoulders saying there is nothing they can do.

Gatling

Funny how unemployed Roma beggers could afford a legal case like this ,but don't understand english

The laws should be amended to ban all street collection's unless from registered charity

Capt'n Midnight

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Classy title from the Indo

they say they do not speak English and cannot understand.

What ever happened to ignorance is no excuse in the eye of the law ??


We've all heard stories about vast amounts of money , so shouldn't CAB be involved ?,

(Unless of course they are paying income tax and have all the other registrations for their business)

Bring back the workhouses !

goose2005

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so what idiot wrote the law in that way

bertieahernlaughingholdingcupoftea.jpg

Nodin

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

.....

Bring back the workhouses !

PC liberal nonsense.

Sergeant

I enjoy beggars, ruffians and street urchins. Their presence means I can continue to beat them savagely with my walking cane.

suicide_circus

Begging i can tolerate and sympathise with. Organised begging clans who use babies as props are another matter.

mikemac1

Damien360 wrote: »

It is now rare to get a passive beggar , I.e. one that just sits and begs .

Just go to an ATM.

They must be expecting a crisp 20 note :rolleyes:

branie

I wonder if human rights groups had a part in this

suicide_circus

This makes no sense. Anyone chugging, calling to houses or bucket shaking has to wear or carry an ID from an approved organisation, no? But someone begging can just claim that they have a licence with absolutely no burden of proof on them....

aloyisious

Maybe the ruling hiccup can be got around by the "beggar" being issued with a licence and having to have it on him/her when "working" on the streets?

Nodin

Sergeant wrote: »

I enjoy beggars, ruffians and street urchins. Their presence means I can continue to beat them savagely with my walking cane.

Have you tried running them over with your carriage? Its quite the thing. My man will contact your man with the details.

catallus

Why can't people realise that the judge is simply upholding the rights of beggars, as citizens, to do as they please? They have the same rights as the rest of us!

hatrickpatrick

laoch na mona wrote: »

well then that is harassment and a crime on its own

I've only ever seen one aggressive beggar but then im not a dub so i don't claim to know how bad it is. I have noticed there are more beggars every time i go to Dublin

You're very lucky.
I live in Sandycove and I regularly hang out in Dun Laoghaire, and up until a couple of years ago we had a group of absolute menaces terrorising the main street. They were Roma Big Issue sellers so I presume they were part of that organized criminal gang as opposed to being genuine beggars in need of a bit of help, but they used to literally mug people, particularly kids, as they walked up the street. I remember when I was around 15/16 I was meeting some friends in IMC cinema and one of the girls said she'd encountered this group on her way up to the cinema, told them she had no money, and they'd literally snatched her purse and fished a 20 out of it, then ran away. Now I know you might say it was her fault for having her purse actually out and not put away, but this was 10 seconds from the bank and she was just putting it away having been to the ATM to get money for the cinema.

Like I'm sorry but that's not begging that's straight up mugging, and of a 15 year old girl at that. She was really shaken and upset by the whole thing, Gardai didn't want to know (probably not their fault as the law wasn't on their side back then for dealing with these people), and in all honesty it permanently shaped my view of the whole situation. I have absolutely no problem with people begging, none whatsoever, but aggression should be prosecuted to the absolute max, people shouldn't have to put up with being harassed like that. I'll probably get accused of racism for saying this as well, but that organized Roma gang needs to be dealt with and dealt with quickly - why the hell hasn't it been? So many people I know have stories of being mugged by them. Lately it hasn't even been under the pretense of begging, now it tends to involve begging in town on nights out, going into crowds coming out of nightclubs asking for change, and only when you're half way home do you realize that someone's pickpocketed your smartphone. Their faces are recognizable, everyone knows it's the same crew night after night, so why is it so hard to get any arrests or convictions?

Cee-Jay-Cee

bhamsteve wrote: »

I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as
The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.

The Gardai would have my full backing if they announced that they couldn't give a fcuk about beggars or licensing laws until
Such time as legislators rewrite laws to suit modern day life. This country is a complete mess and its legal system is archaic with ancient laws that are difficult to implement and even harder to enforce. No where else in the world do criminals and offenders get such leeway with the full backing of the legal profession who make a mint out of our free legal aid system arguing technicalities while forgetting about the offences that have been committed.

the_syco

laoch na mona wrote: »

its not that big a deal just ignore them

It seems to be late at night if you are a small woman.

ArmaniJeanss

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Lately it hasn't even been under the pretense of begging, now it tends to involve begging in town on nights out, going into crowds coming out of nightclubs asking for change, and only when you're half way home do you realize that someone's pickpocketed your smartphone. Their faces are recognizable, everyone knows it's the same crew night after night, so why is it so hard to get any arrests or convictions?

Fairly sure the Gardai did an undercover op in Temple Bar Dublin a few months ago and arrested loads. Obviously its still an ongoing problem though as either there is a new batch of thieves ready to take their place, or else the originals aren't imprisoned by the courts.

Honestly think someday it'll end in bad violence when they rob the wrong people (a bunch of drunked up stag partiers from England perhaps).

******
Edit : Links (admittedly from the Evening Herald)
Last week gardai from Pearse Street and Store Street stations arrested 21 suspects from Romania and Bulgaria who had travelled to Dublin "specifically to embark on a wave of street thefts and thefts in pubs and clubs."
http://www.herald.ie/news/gangs-flying-in-to-steal-iphones-29130404.html

The special operation, which is part of the gardai's clampdown on street crime codenamed Operation Aughrim, led to the mass arrests on Friday and Saturday night in Dublin city centre.
All the suspects are Romanian nationals aged between 16 and 40 and were picked up in the Grafton Street, Temple Bar and Nassau Street areas of the city centre.
http://www.herald.ie/news/19-arrested-as-pickpocket-gang-smashed-28850871.html

shruikan2553

I wondering at what stage it is considered harassment and you're allowed to defend yourself, Im guessing you have to wait until they touch you.

Kill anyone who uses a child as an aid in begging.

Most of the Roma beggars are apparently under the thumb of some guy who makes them beg so I'm amazed the usual uber-lefties on here are in favour of this ruling which effectively gets rid of the only tool that could be used to break up how easily these enterprises which subjugate women operate.

Pumpkinseeds

Meh, what a load of old cobblers. I have never seen a licensed charity collector sitting on the ground begging with a cup. I thought ignorance of the law was not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Surely someone begging/collecting money on the street without a licence would be breaking the law?

A Romanian gypsy using Irish courts to successfully get away with crime, aren't we all so glad Romania is part of the EU. I'm sure they'll have many more interesting cases before the Irish courts in the future and contrbute so much to this country:rolleyes:

WoollyRedHat

mickgotsick wrote: »

Any spare change for a hostel?

I had one ask me for a few bob for the shelbourne a while ago... cheecky fecker

suicide_circus

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Meh, what a load of old cobblers. I have never seen a licensed charity collector sitting on the ground begging with a cup. I thought ignorance of the law was not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Surely someone begging/collecting money on the street without a licence would be breaking the law?

A Romanian gypsy using Irish courts to successfully get away with crime, aren't we all so glad Romania is part of the EU. I'm sure they'll have many more interesting cases before the Irish courts in the future and contrbute so much to this country:rolleyes:

Once again they are Roma who just happen to be from Romania. They are a distinct ethnic group with their origins in the Indian sub continent. Our own Irish gypsys are no great shakes either.

Odysseus

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I wondering at what stage it is considered harassment and you're allowed to defend yourself, Im guessing you have to wait until they touch you.

If you have to defend yourself I don't think you are dealing with a begger.

I don't encounter much if any aggressive begging walking around Dublin; same with addicts begging or tapping up, I find that it is all over as soon as I say "Sorry mate, no chance"

suicide_circus

mikemac1 wrote: »

Where do the Roma live anyway?

I see them on the Red Line Luas many mornings but they get on before me so I don't know where they are coming from. Possibly Bluebell?

Heading into the city centre to get their patch and beg for the day

Couple of women and just one man, a huge guy who walks around like he's the boss

Quite a few live in squalid tenements around Dorset St, South Circular Road, Mountjoy Sq. They are well known in Romania for absolutely wrecking any accommodation they have and living in filthy conditions due to their own negligence and lack of regard for the state. Sound familiar?

Feathers

laoch na mona wrote: »

burden of proof is a well established standard in law
meaning that if someone accuses you they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. its a good system which ensures no one is assumed guilty without proof, of course nothing works all of the time but there is no better alternative

also why do beggars annoy some people so much? I Know they shouldn't be doing it but its not that big a deal just ignore them

The burden of proof in the first instance is with the Gardaí, but that would be to establish that the person was begging. Once they've seen them collect money, the burden of proof shifts to the beggar, who has to prove they're doing so legally.

It's like anything else - a TV licence inspector has to prove you've a TV first, but then you have to prove you've a licence. In a suspected shebeen, the Garda has to prove you're selling drink, then you've to prove you've a licence, etc. etc.

The burden of proof doesn't stay with the Gardaí to prove you don't have a licence. (That would be ridiculous).

Pumpkinseeds

We're assuming that all of the Romanians begging on the streets are gypsies, which may or may not be the case. I'll probably be savaged for this comment but here goes anyway, I don't believe that anyone who cannot speak fluent English should be allowed to immigrate to this country. Anyone wanting to move here should be willing to work to earn a living.

Madam_X

Yeh they're Roma - and they are gypsies. The term Roma applies to a gypsy culture... not Romanians. Maybe the confusion comes from the word "Roma" being part of the word "Romania" and the fact that some Roma gypsies come from Romania.

Yeh people who emigrate here should work. Not always necessary for them to have fluent English though - e.g. if they're not dealing with the public or if they're working in somewhere that caters for people of their nationality.

Pumpkinseeds

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh they're Roma - and they are gypsies. The term Roma applies to a gypsy culture... not Romanians. Maybe the confusion comes from the word "Roma" being part of the word "Romania" and the fact that some Roma gypsies come from Romania.

Yeh people who emigrate here should work. Not always necessary for them to have fluent English though - e.g. if they're not dealing with the public or if they're working in somewhere that caters for people of their nationality.

Nobody can state with 100% certainty that every person from Romania, begging on the streets of Ireland is a Roma gypsy any more than they can state with the same certainty that every beggar on the streets of Ireland is genuinely homeless. Speaking English even at a basic level should be compulsory for anyone coming to live here, regardless of whether or not they intend only to work with people who speak their own language.

Death and Taxes

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Nobody can state with 100% certainty that every person from Romania, begging on the streets of Ireland is a Roma gypsy any more than they can state with the same certainty that every beggar on the streets of Ireland is genuinely homeless. Speaking English even at a basic level should be compulsory for anyone coming to live here, regardless of whether or not they intend only to work with people who speak their own language.

Rubbish!
Firstly brush up on Roma, try a basic google search.
Secondly, despite your wishes the happy position is that any EU citizen can come here to live without requiring to speak English, long may that remain the position.

Pumpkinseeds

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Rubbish!
Firstly brush up on Roma, try a basic google search.
Secondly, despite your wishes the happy position is that any EU citizen can come here to live without requiring to speak English, long may that remain the position.

Each to their own Wiley. Go chat with every beggar on the streets of this country,regardless of their nationality and get back to me when you can give me 100% proof that I'm wrong. Bloody pc nonsense didn't take long:rolleyes:

Madam_X

I don't think anyone's saying every Roma gypsy is from Romania, other than you earlier.

Yeh I agree fluent English isn't necessary.

Peanut

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh they're Roma - and they are gypsies. The term Roma applies to a gypsy culture... not Romanians. Maybe the confusion comes from the word "Roma" being part of the word "Romania" and the fact that some Roma gypsies come from Romania.

In fairness, Romania easily has the single largest population of Roma in the EU.

Nevertheless, they're still a minority in that country, but can be over-representative of Romanians abroad since they are much more in the public eye compared to other immigrants/emigrants.

Chuck Stone

How about making it a fineable offence to give beggars money?

Would that work lads?

Lads?

Zen65

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Speaking English even at a basic level should be compulsory for anyone coming to live here, regardless of whether or not they intend only to work with people who speak their own language.

I imagine that if similar requirements had been imposed on the Irish emigrating to other countries many of them would have been sent back at the ports.

Z

AlekSmart

suicide_circus wrote: »

Quite a few live in squalid tenements around Dorset St, South Circular Road, Mountjoy Sq. They are well known in Romania for absolutely wrecking any accommodation they have and living in filthy conditions due to their own negligence and lack of regard for the state. Sound familiar?

Observant indeed

The individuals generally being commented upon here tend to operate in a tight geographical area.

Whilst a goodly number do indeed live in the area's you mention,they also have substantial living accomodation in Dublin 15.

It's very clear that these folks have the measure of the Big Thick Oul Irish Gard,and they now know the hoops through which the Gards can be forced to jump.

I'm lucky enough to work with a substantial number of Romanian and Bulgarian colleagues who have been very helpful in outlining how these families operate.

Many of the Dublin Roma,are in fact Bulgarian,and are fluent in a number of Central European dialects if not languages.

Knowing their lingo really IS a highly valuable asset,and has allows many of my colleagues to thwart these leeches before they acted.

The one MAJOR difference which my colleagues speak of is the ability of these beggars to confront a Garda on the street.

Put mildly,they are incredulous,as to a man,they say that "back home" such confrontation would simply not happen unless they wished to be sternly rebuked and perhaps even recieve a tap of a Policemans baton ( )

The DMU Gardai,in the City Centre Stations are well familiar with these people,but as with much else these days,their baton-arm is strapped tightly up behind their back.

Of course as some posters say,"It's not that big of a problem" or "What about The Bankers etc etc " so the traditional Irish safe-option of doing nothing is always available.

I believe that the Gardai need to get innovative and pro-active in their dealings with these people.

All arrestees be processed as s l o w l .......y as possible,with all documentation being translated,by hand,into the first official language for the accused.

However should the accused be amenable to it,a fast-track option could be made available involving supervised manual labour collecting and processing the discarded sacks of domestic waste lying all over err....Dorset St,South Circular Rd,Mountjoy Square ...Hmmmm what a happy coincidence..:p

The payment for such labour could,incredibly enough be made equal to the "Charge" for making a nuisance of yourself..

The IMF would see it as revenue-neutral,the longer term civilized residents of these streets would have the mounds of garbage removed and the Beggars would get some good physical exercise....Win-Win Situation ?

However I do concede it would seriously curtail the time available for Begging....unavoidable sadly....:rolleyes: