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High Court ruling helps put beggars back on our streets

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  • 21-04-2013 8:30am
    #1
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭


    Classy title from the Indo :)

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/high-court-ruling-helps-put-beggars-back-on-our-streets-29210883.html
    But a High Court ruling that gardai have to establish that the person they stop begging does not have a licence under the Street and House to House Collection Act of 1962 – the law that governs charitable collections – has led to a number of begging convictions being struck out in the courts in recent weeks.
    If they are stopped by gardai and asked if they have a permit to collect money under the 1962 Act they say they do not speak English and cannot understand.

    So the beggars and chancers can now once again hassle and annoy everyone going about their business because AGS have to prove the don't have a permit rather than the beggars proving the do? More ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense.
    How come I have to prove I have a driving licence to drive or age card for buying alcohol etc if asked yet they don't?


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    #2
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    How come I have to prove I have a driving licence / age card for buying alcohol etc if asked yet they don't?

    Because you look like a prepubescent boy?


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    #3
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    The Blasket Islands is the location after the March on Dublin and controlled democracy is implemented. One Rule FF FG combined, the Future...


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    #4
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Can I open a pub without a licence so and just claim not to understand when the gards come looking to see a licence?


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    #5
    bhamsteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭bhamsteve


    I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as
    More ridiculous bureaucratic nonsense
    The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.


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    #6
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,480 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    bhamsteve wrote: »
    I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as
    The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.

    so what idiot wrote the law in that way when every other licence requiring law clearly puts the burden of proof on the person operating? Instead of relying on previous laws for wording and legal procedure they gone and created something new and different and pretty silly instead.


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    #7
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    bhamsteve wrote: »
    I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as
    The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.

    The law wasn't bad until the ruling, another example of bad legislation when examined by the courts, the gardai can only work with what they were given which was clearly ****e!


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    #8
    bhamsteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭bhamsteve


    If the aim of the law is to prevent begging on the streets it is obviously not fit for purpose.
    Probably an oversight by a TD who is worrying about paying his mortgage and how he will support himself in retirement.


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    #9
    Fr_Fitzexactly
    Site Banned Posts: 85 ✭✭Fr_Fitzexactly


    Wait for it, next year the government will implement a begging licence. Pay €500 to the council to be allowed beg for the year and property tax for cardboard boxes depending on the size and number of blankets inside it


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    #10
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    burden of proof is a well established standard in law
    meaning that if someone accuses you they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. its a good system which ensures no one is assumed guilty without proof, of course nothing works all of the time but there is no better alternative

    also why do beggars annoy some people so much? I Know they shouldn't be doing it but its not that big a deal just ignore them


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    #11
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,394 ✭✭✭Damien360


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    burden of proof is a well established standard in law
    meaning that if someone accuses you they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. its a good system which ensures no one is assumed guilty without proof, of course nothing works all of the time but there is no better alternative

    also why do beggars annoy some people so much? I Know they shouldn't be doing it but its not that big a deal just ignore them

    I am not sure where you live but in Dublin they are very aggressive. I have been followed for 20m with them in my face. you have to get very verbally agressive to get rid of them. Not nice if you are with your family.

    Here in Newbridge the cops move them on but when they were washing windows with dirty water at the lights for whitewater to Main Street they gave women a very hard time banging on the windows and demanding money. Difficult to ignore that.


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    #12
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Damien360 wrote: »
    I am not sure where you live but in Dublin they are very aggressive. I have been followed for 20m with them in my face. you have to get very verbally agressive to get rid of them. Not nice if you are with your family.

    Here in Newbridge the cops move them on but when they were washing windows with dirty water at the lights for whitewater to Main Street they gave women a very hard time banging on the windows and demanding money. Difficult to ignore that.

    well then that is harassment and a crime on its own

    I've only ever seen one aggressive beggar but then im not a dub so i don't claim to know how bad it is. I have noticed there are more beggars every time i go to Dublin


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    #13
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #14
    mickgotsick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭mickgotsick


    Any spare change for a hostel?


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    #15
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    so what idiot wrote the law in that way when every other licence requiring law clearly puts the burden of proof on the person operating? Instead of relying on previous laws for wording and legal procedure they gone and created something new and different and pretty silly instead.


    I'm glad you asked - Dermot Ahern was the minister. Another example of badlly thought out knee-jerk populism.


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    #16
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,394 ✭✭✭Damien360


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    well then that is harassment and a crime on its own

    I've only ever seen one aggressive beggar but then im not a dub so i don't claim to know how bad it is. I have noticed there are more beggars every time i go to Dublin

    It is now rare to get a passive beggar , I.e. one that just sits and begs .

    Much more common to get the mobile one that follows your every step . It was a lot worse at every traffic light in Dublin a few years ago before the clampdown , particularily on n7 inbound past red cow and n4 outbound before m50 exit. This ruling will just allow them to return with the guards shrugging their shoulders saying there is nothing they can do.


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    #17
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Funny how unemployed Roma beggers could afford a legal case like this ,but don't understand english

    The laws should be amended to ban all street collection's unless from registered charity
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #18
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    Classy title from the Indo :)
    they say they do not speak English and cannot understand.
    What ever happened to ignorance is no excuse in the eye of the law ??


    We've all heard stories about vast amounts of money , so shouldn't CAB be involved ?,

    (Unless of course they are paying income tax and have all the other registrations for their business)

    Bring back the workhouses !


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    #19
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    so what idiot wrote the law in that way

    bertieahernlaughingholdingcupoftea.jpg


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    #20
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    .....

    Bring back the workhouses !


    PC liberal nonsense.


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    #21
    Sergeant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭Sergeant


    I enjoy beggars, ruffians and street urchins. Their presence means I can continue to beat them savagely with my walking cane.


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    #22
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Begging i can tolerate and sympathise with. Organised begging clans who use babies as props are another matter.


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    #23
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Damien360 wrote: »
    It is now rare to get a passive beggar , I.e. one that just sits and begs .

    Just go to an ATM.

    They must be expecting a crisp 20 note :rolleyes:


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    #24
    branie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭branie


    I wonder if human rights groups had a part in this


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    #25
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    This makes no sense. Anyone chugging, calling to houses or bucket shaking has to wear or carry an ID from an approved organisation, no? But someone begging can just claim that they have a licence with absolutely no burden of proof on them....


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    #26
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,562 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Maybe the ruling hiccup can be got around by the "beggar" being issued with a licence and having to have it on him/her when "working" on the streets?


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    #27
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sergeant wrote: »
    I enjoy beggars, ruffians and street urchins. Their presence means I can continue to beat them savagely with my walking cane.


    Have you tried running them over with your carriage? Its quite the thing. My man will contact your man with the details.


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    #28
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Why can't people realise that the judge is simply upholding the rights of beggars, as citizens, to do as they please? They have the same rights as the rest of us!


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    #29
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    well then that is harassment and a crime on its own

    I've only ever seen one aggressive beggar but then im not a dub so i don't claim to know how bad it is. I have noticed there are more beggars every time i go to Dublin

    You're very lucky.
    I live in Sandycove and I regularly hang out in Dun Laoghaire, and up until a couple of years ago we had a group of absolute menaces terrorising the main street. They were Roma Big Issue sellers so I presume they were part of that organized criminal gang as opposed to being genuine beggars in need of a bit of help, but they used to literally mug people, particularly kids, as they walked up the street. I remember when I was around 15/16 I was meeting some friends in IMC cinema and one of the girls said she'd encountered this group on her way up to the cinema, told them she had no money, and they'd literally snatched her purse and fished a 20 out of it, then ran away. Now I know you might say it was her fault for having her purse actually out and not put away, but this was 10 seconds from the bank and she was just putting it away having been to the ATM to get money for the cinema.

    Like I'm sorry but that's not begging that's straight up mugging, and of a 15 year old girl at that. She was really shaken and upset by the whole thing, Gardai didn't want to know (probably not their fault as the law wasn't on their side back then for dealing with these people), and in all honesty it permanently shaped my view of the whole situation. I have absolutely no problem with people begging, none whatsoever, but aggression should be prosecuted to the absolute max, people shouldn't have to put up with being harassed like that. I'll probably get accused of racism for saying this as well, but that organized Roma gang needs to be dealt with and dealt with quickly - why the hell hasn't it been? So many people I know have stories of being mugged by them. Lately it hasn't even been under the pretense of begging, now it tends to involve begging in town on nights out, going into crowds coming out of nightclubs asking for change, and only when you're half way home do you realize that someone's pickpocketed your smartphone. Their faces are recognizable, everyone knows it's the same crew night after night, so why is it so hard to get any arrests or convictions?


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    #30
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users Posts: 12,235 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    bhamsteve wrote: »
    I'm not sure that following the correct legal procedure is the same as
    The law has to be applied as it has been written, until the time that it can be amended. The Garda should not, and do not, have the power to bend the laws to fit their needs.

    The Gardai would have my full backing if they announced that they couldn't give a fcuk about beggars or licensing laws until
    Such time as legislators rewrite laws to suit modern day life. This country is a complete mess and its legal system is archaic with ancient laws that are difficult to implement and even harder to enforce. No where else in the world do criminals and offenders get such leeway with the full backing of the legal profession who make a mint out of our free legal aid system arguing technicalities while forgetting about the offences that have been committed.


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    #31
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    its not that big a deal just ignore them
    It seems to be late at night if you are a small woman.


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