Unpaid Fare Court Summons and fine

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The point Alek is making here is that it's how supposedly educated student type are often stopped on elementary mistakes such as buying tickets for friends on their own ID, not carrying or having any student ID, buying/using children tickets, carrying out of date college/student ID's etc. As these same issues come up for Luas, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus we can only conclude that it can't always be the fault of the transport company.

The point AlekSmart made included this:

It does point a rather quivering finger in the direction of our Education System

I don't mean to overreact but if there's a point to be made then bringing up red herrings is not a convincing way to do it.

Losty Dublin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The point AlekSmart made included this:

I don't mean to overreact but if there's a point to be made then bringing up red herrings is not a convincing way to do it.

You need a pinch of cynicism to fully get his point

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't mean to overreact but if there's a point to be made then bringing up red herrings is not a convincing way to do it.

I would'nt be too sure of just how Red my herring is
at all.

As far as I'm concerned any education system which,from experience,leaves significant numbers of it's second level output incapable of fathoming the reality of one of modern life's basic elements is indeed questionable.

Sure,it can be described as a "Logical Fallacy",but that does'nt make it any less real,when it rears it's ugly head year after year.

Indeed I note HotP0pp3r returns to add a little body to the Original Post which opened thus...

I was caught without a ticket back in November of last year but at the time I had no job and was attending full time college with no money. I had rushed to the station but didn't have time to get a ticket

However,in the fullness of time and,doubtless,on mature reflection,the issue has now become slightly fuzzier as it appears the OP has problems with Fare Scales generally.

I don't see what difference it makes what educational course any student is pursuing in any cases similar to this. Maybe they don't adapt because of the fact that ticket prices are so high now and there are no student discounts on train fares

So,perhaps to_be_confirmed is correct on this occasion,as it looks as if the OP simply got caught-rapid and being a student is irrelevant ?

lucernarian

AlekSmart wrote:

As far as I'm concerned any education system which,from experience,leaves significant numbers of it's second level output incapable of fathoming the reality of one of modern life's basic elements is indeed questionable.

Now a straw man shows up, a popular phrase on the forum lately. I called this idea of "significant numbers" a red herring and I'm even more convinced now. Could you back this up with anything beyond anecdotal evidence?

If I may indulge in a comparison for a monent, let us look at the multitudinous offences that are recorded and punished on Irish roads every day by motorists. I read a cited statistic on the forum recently of something like over 80% of motorists admitting to some kind of speeding offence recently. These matters can result in legal prosecution or a threat to the safety of others. The state, through the RSA, has responded in kind with extensive safety campaigns and even TV adverts to educate people. Partially from this, road safety has improved if you look at the numbers who die on our roads nowadays. Yet we all know that speeding offences continue to happen in their thousands annually. Are we to blame the education that has already been offered on the subject or do we look to more intrinsic and extrinsic factors, like a prevailing attitude among many motorists to get from A to B quicker or a failing of the state to ensure that offenders are properly punished or a rake of other reasons?

Addressing one finer aspect of transport enforcement with such a sledgehammer of a generalisation is at best far too tongue-in-cheek or else it's disingenuous in my view.

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Now a straw man shows up, a popular phrase on the forum lately. I called this idea of "significant numbers" a red herring and I'm even more convinced now. Can you care to back this up with anything beyond anecdotal evidence?.....

......Addressing one finer aspect of transport enforcement with such a sledgehammer of a generalisation is at best far too tongue-in-cheek or else it's disingenuous in my view.

God no,T_B_C,I'm afraid as I'm only giving my opinion,it's anecdotal all the way in this instance.

The beauty of this is that those who disagree or whatever can do a Mrs O Bumble and call Bollox on it.....It's all part of life's rich tapestry and causes me no offence

Losty Dublin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Now a straw man shows up, a popular phrase on the forum lately. I called this idea of "significant numbers" a red herring and I'm even more convinced now. Could you back this up with anything beyond anecdotal evidence?

I can't give you accurate figures here but I can help illustrate his point.

I live beside Griffith College so it goes without saying that there is a lot of students getting on and off the buses around here, as well as fraternizing the local shops. It's a rare day for a 122 to stop and pick up students without at least one tendering notes to the driver, asking him where his bus goes or having issues with out of date or expired passes. A driver friend of mine one was asked to accept a $20 bill while another evening he was told that she'd pay the fare tomorrow as she has no money!

And lest you say that it's a once off or a confusing system, you can tell the student houses in the area for they invariably have their rubbish out the day that it isn't bin day, no bin tags, green bags out on the wrong day, green bags with domestic waste etc etc

tunedout

Fred Swanson wrote: »

You should have thought about the long term repercussions before fare evading.

Welcome to the world of having a criminal record.

Wow some amount of people up on very high horses here. And what sh*t they speak.

OP, this wont be a conviction, I assure you. You'll get a small fine to the court poor box if you're unlucky. Chances are though, if you can show you've paid the fine though it will be struck out.

I've been through this myself, its still cheaper dodge fares with court factored in.

AlekSmart

tunedout wrote: »

Wow some amount of people up on very high horses here. And what sh*t they speak.

OP, this wont be a conviction, I assure you. You'll get a small fine to the court poor box if you're unlucky. Chances are though, if you can show you've paid the fine though it will be struck out.

I've been through this myself, its still cheaper dodge fares with court factored in.

Good sound advice here,if a tad anecdotal,but definitely something for Ruari Quinn to recommed to the Sylabus Review Group..?

Mark Tapley

@AlexSmart I really hope you talk like you post . Might I suggest you add the word bounder to your repertoire. Are you by any chance wearing a smoking jacket?

tunedout

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good sound advice here,if a tad anecdotal,but definitely something for Ruari Quinn to recommed to the Sylabus Review Group..?

What the f*ck are you on about?

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

And lest you say that it's a once off or a confusing system, you can tell the student houses in the area for they invariably have their rubbish out the day that it isn't bin day, no bin tags, green bags out on the wrong day, green bags with domestic waste etc etc

Oh dear, now we can spot where students live based on the kind of garbage bags left outside houses!!

And the rest of that post is no more illustrative than the other confused remarks and assumptions made about "students" in this thread. Based on a bus stop beside a college which offers accommodation for visitors staying as little as two weeks, with beginners courses in English. (http://www.gcd.ie/special-offer) Do the likes of UCD or DIT down the road attract the same ilk of passenger?

Besides that, I didn't care so much for the "proof" of any particular statement but rather the farcical generalisations being made alongside about education and so on.

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Based on a bus stop beside a college which offers accommodation for visitors staying as little as two weeks, with beginners courses in English. (http://www.gcd.ie/special-offer) Do the likes of UCD or DIT down the road attract the same ilk of passenger?

Besides that, I didn't care so much for the "proof" of any particular statement but rather the farcical generalisations being made alongside about education and so on.

I can't say definitvely on the Garbage issue,however I'm confident that some Greyhound or Panda person may well happen along with their (anecdotal) experiences ?

However,based yet again on nothing other than yet more of my own anecdotal observations...I'm afraid my answer to the College Question would be two fold...Yes-Definitely,in the case of UCD and Yes-To a substantially lesser degree,in the case of DIT.

Perhaps,in the interests of provability there is an opportunity here for a post-grad thesis or two in order to firm up on the stats ?

doubletrouble?

you know the ironic thing about all this.
when fares go up, routes are cut on both bus and rail networks because the companies are loosing revenue due to a number of factors including fare dodging.
you will still have people including the fare dodgers moaning and groaning about their services being cut. the only thing i can do is laugh when i read threads and posts like these.
if you want a service to run at least try and pay for what you use.

lucernarian

AlekSmart wrote: »

I can't say definitvely on the Garbage issue,however I'm confident that some Greyhound or Panda person may well happen along with their (anecdotal) experiences ?

However,based yet again on nothing other than yet more of my own anecdotal observations...I'm afraid my answer to the College Question would be two fold...Yes-Definitely,in the case of UCD and Yes-To a substantially lesser degree,in the case of DIT.

Perhaps,in the interests of provability there is an opportunity here for a post-grad thesis or two in order to firm up on the stats ?

To answer my own question, there's nothing to add to the questionable claims and assumptions. The points you made earlier about the roles of education boil down to what though... A sarcastic jibe at students, or a completely bizarre and unsubstantiated conclusion? Either way, I did respond to it and yet there's no answer to whether it's the fault of education that people speed, for instance. It all adds up to nothing more than a red herring.

I've already questioned the Student travelcard based Leap card on this forum, pertaining to its legitimate penalties for misuse. I'm still waiting for further information from Student Travelcard on this but then I wonder why I should have to clarify a matter of enforcement with them rather than the likes of the NTA. But then it makes me wonder why there's a distinction made with students in particular, rather than simply allowing young adults in general to enjoy some of these discounts as is the norm in other countries (bahncard 50 http://www.bahn.com/i/view/USA/en/prices/germany/bahncard.shtml?dbkanal_007=L16_S02_D002_KIN0006_cf1-pk_LZ01, 16-25 railcard http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/eligibility-benefits/eligibility/, http://help.tgv-europe.com/en/fares/discount-cards-sncf#young, go passes http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/passes-cards/go-pass-10.aspx albeit Belgium have specific "going from home to college only" cards which are issued by SNCB, not some private company)

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

To answer my own question, there's nothing to add to the questionable claims and assumptions. The points you made earlier about the roles of education boil down to what though... A sarcastic jibe at students, or a completely bizarre and unsubstantiated conclusion? Either way, I did respond to it and yet there's no answer to whether it's the fault of education that people speed, for instance. It all adds up to nothing more than a red herring.

I've already questioned the Student travelcard based Leap card on this forum, pertaining to its legitimate penalties for misuse. I'm still waiting for further information from Student Travelcard on this but then I wonder why I should have to clarify a matter of enforcement with them rather than the likes of the NTA. But then it makes me wonder why there's a distinction made with students in particular, rather than simply allowing young adults in general to enjoy some of these discounts as is the norm in other countries (bahncard 50 http://www.bahn.com/i/view/USA/en/prices/germany/bahncard.shtml?dbkanal_007=L16_S02_D002_KIN0006_cf1-pk_LZ01, 16-25 railcard http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/eligibility-benefits/eligibility/, http://help.tgv-europe.com/en/fares/discount-cards-sncf#young, go passes http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/passes-cards/go-pass-10.aspx albeit Belgium have specific "going from home to college only" cards which are issued by SNCB, not some private company)

For sure,I can see there's nothing to add to this particular thread.

However,I've little doubt but there will be another similar one along shortly,which will rekindle the flickering embers of this one....;)

As for the accusation of making "sarcastic jibes" regarding Student issues,I'm sorry you percieve it that way,as over the length of time I've been posting on the topic and various sub-topics,the sacarcasm has been wrung clean out of them.

So that leaves us with the latter of your points,that the alledged "Conclusions" are "Completely Bizzarre and Unsubstantiated",terminologies which are indeed accurate in themselves.

However as yet,I have'nt reached "Conclusions",apart from the "something 's wrong in paradise" sensation I feel at the dawn of each varsity academic year,which if anything confirms the Bizzarre description just dandy.

lucernarian

I don't know how my question turned into a "perception". I asked you if these comments were but a sarcastic jibe. Let me ask, when people are regularly caught speeding on roads and breaking, is that still a problem of education? When people use free travel passes in other people's names, is that a problem of education?

AlekSmart wrote:

...I have'nt reached "Conclusions",apart from the "something 's wrong in paradise" sensation...

I'm afraid to burst this bubble but I might have been referring to the questionable conclusions drawn by multiple posters in this thread, in particular Losty Dublin's observations of bin collection habits on the South Circular Road... Sadly however, you had your share of them, like this nugget about second level education:

As far as I'm concerned any education system which,from experience,leaves significant numbers of it's second level output incapable of fathoming the reality of one of modern life's basic elements is indeed questionable.

This non-sequitur derives its conclusion from the bizarre belief that many second level students have difficulties in grasping one of life's basic facets.

markpb

Is it not likely that students are a) more likely to use public transport (especially Dublin Bus since neither UCD nor DCU are served by rail) than employed people and b) more likely to post about their ticket experiences online which gives people a skewed idea that they're unable to purchase the correct ticket?

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

Is it not likely that students are a) more likely to use public transport (especially Dublin Bus since neither UCD nor DCU are served by rail) than employed people and b) more likely to post about their ticket experiences online which gives people a skewed idea that they're unable to purchase the correct ticket?

It is indeed likely,Markpb,and these very boards are testimony to that...

ProudDUB

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Wow useless advice from useless people.

What were you expecting? Advice on how best to minimize the consequences of not paying your train fare? What good would that do except encourage other people to do it too?

Grandeeod

When I was a student, I didn't have the benefit of the internet. I bought the correct ticket that was available. It was a weekly one and cost £17 back in the day. I had to have a USIT card to buy it or alternatively a college ID card. CIE accepted both but I still had to have a CIE ID card from the Palace in O'Connell street. I often got a free Monday morning trip on Bus Eireann in order to buy my new ticket because it wasn't sold on the bus. No probs. All friendly. My Son is now in college and he's pretty clued up. Reading this thread and others I do agree that todays youth appear to have limited grey matter in a world with many more options. However I wouldn't like to think that AlekSmart has an attitude to all students, because that would be unwise, ignorant and unfair. I'll assume he doesn't note the good ones and only remembers the bad ones, hence the regular tirade. Considering he must work for DB, I'll assume he was never a student (open to correction) and never used public transport in that guise. I despair of todays youth, my own son included. But most parents will say that about any succeeding generation. Im quite sure my parents think Im a stupid prick at the best of times and Im no longer in my "youth".

But how about a little less anti youth crap in your posts Alek. Maybe you could talk more about drug addicts etc, who are quite likely to stick a syringe in your neck, while a mere student will dodge a fare, ask a dumb question, but never actually harm you beyond giving you ammo for this forum.

AlekSmart

Grandeeod wrote: »

When I was a student, I didn't have the benefit of the internet. I bought the correct ticket that was available. It was a weekly one and cost £17 back in the day. I had to have a USIT card to buy it or alternatively a college ID card. CIE accepted both but I still had to have a CIE ID card from the Palace in O'Connell street. I often got a free Monday morning trip on Bus Eireann in order to buy my new ticket because it wasn't sold on the bus. No probs. All friendly. My Son is now in college and he's pretty clued up. Reading this thread and others I do agree that todays youth appear to have limited grey matter in a world with many more options. However I wouldn't like to think that AlekSmart has an attitude to all students, because that would be unwise, ignorant and unfair.I'll assume he doesn't note the good ones and only remembers the bad ones, hence the regular tirade. Considering he must work for DB,I'll assume he was never a student (open to correction) and never used public transport in that guise. I despair of todays youth, my own son included. But most parents will say that about any succeeding generation. Im quite sure my parents think Im a stupid prick at the best of times and Im no longer in my "youth".

But how about a little less anti youth crap in your posts Alek. Maybe you could talk more about drug addicts etc, who are quite likely to stick a syringe in your neck, while a mere student will dodge a fare, ask a dumb question, but never actually harm you beyond giving you ammo for this forum.

I'm sorry Grandeeod,that you take it at such a personal level,but I'll try to clarify,if I may.

The "limited Grey Matter" issue is so very true,however it's far from Public Transport specific,however as it's my main area of experience and is Work related,it's all I can reference truthfully.

I was indeed,what in my time was defined as a "Student",ie: I stayed on after National School and got as far as the Intermediate Cert.

My solo use of public transport,thanks to my independently minded Mother,began at 6 years of age with daily travel on the 34 and 19 routes (School Fare was,I think,2d)

Apart from seeing me onto the Bus,and meeting me from it for a couple of weeks,that was it.

My second level Vocational School was in the City Centre and involved the same Daily Commute on the 13,19/A or at a push the 11.

I can,even today remember my nightly trawl for the right-fare,so as not to incur the wrath of one particular big Countryman conducting the 34's......"Have IT In yourr Fisht" he'd bellow as he worked his way through the packed Bus,and boy,did he work that crowd....however in today's more sanitized atmosphere He would have been deemed material for a "Customer Care" course....

But I digress,and to return to the percieved "Anti Youth" bias....Definitely not.

My own two children are no pillars of efficiency either,but I made it my first priority to enable them to make their own (Economically Sound) travel arrangements..after that they're Big Boys n Girls.

THe "Drug Addict" quote is indeed apposite,but it has to be remembered that quite often,Third Level Institutions are the first place a young person comes face-to-face with the ease of substance availability,indeed often the actual dealings are ON the same Public Transport we speak of.

Taking it a bit further,I regularly come up close and personal,particularly at the start of term,with the weekly late night exodus of the freshers to Dublin City Centre,from the College Clubs to the City Centre "Student-Night" establishments....however the behaviour patterns exhibited on these occasions warrant a totally seperate thread,as shown by the experiences on the N11 Corridor each year.

It is every bit as likely that a it could be a "mere student" who'll be the Junkie that sticks a Busdriver or Garda as the Drug Dependency culture simply does'nt recognize boundaries,with not every junkie conforming to a Luas Red Liner.

As Grandeeod points out,it's worth remembering that we are not talking about ALL Students,far from it...most of them will cop-on very rapidly and never so much as raise a blip on the radar.

However,the issues remain,and with a significant,and in my opinion,increasing number Year on Year

Hope this clarifies some of the issues ?