Unpaid Fare Court Summons and fine

HotP0pp3r

I was caught without a ticket back in November of last year but at the time I had no job and was attending full time college with no money. I had rushed to the station but didn't have time to get a ticket. Luckily an Irish-rail employee got on the train and fined me 102.80 even though I told him why I hadn't paid and had the fare with me. When he asked for my details I gave the wrong address as I couldn't afford the fine and I was so annoyed at the time, then nothing came of it.

However; now doing work experience, on my way in this morning to the Docklands station, where the guy who usually works there lets you pay at the machine when you get off, there was an army waiting behind the barriers ready to pounce on any passenger avoiding the 2.80 train fare. I told them I've never had an issue here before and he told me to stand aside and then fined me and rang "his" office as he called it. The previous fine showed up but with the wrong address and this time I'd given the right one so he confirmed it. He told me the fines increased to 152.84 which I completely agree with but he then tells me he's resending the court summons out to my house.

This sounds like a world of crap for me but I want to know does anyone have any advice or has anyone gone through a similar proceeding and just give me an idea of what these involve. I do not want to lose the chance to go to America or Austrailia for a year over an unpaid train fare...

Thanks

goingnowhere

You didn't buy a ticket, you got caught twice.

If you can't afford it, walk. If you arrive too late to get a ticket, wait for the next train.

You gave false details, and got caught out

100 euro for no ticket
50 euro for giving false details
2.80 fare owed


As the summons for November will now be issued to the correct address, the game is up and you will end up in court.

Conviction up to 1000 euro and/or 3 months in jail.

Given you gave false details and have been caught twice it doesn't look good.

Duckjob

Advice ?

Stop dodging fares and pay your way. Problem solved.

corktina

you wont get much sympathy on here! (not from me anyway)

HotP0pp3r

goingnowhere wrote: »

You didn't buy a ticket, you got caught twice.

If you can't afford it, walk. If you arrive too late to get a ticket, wait for the next train.

You gave false details, and got caught out

100 euro for no ticket
50 euro for giving false details
2.80 fare owed


As the summons for November will now be issued to the correct address, the game is up and you will end up in court.

Conviction up to 1000 euro and/or 3 months in jail.

Given you gave false details and have been caught twice it doesn't look good.

Yeah the fine is perfectly grand and I'm willing to pay but conviction for unpaid train fare is going to ruin my life and I'd just like to find out if there's anyone that has been in court over an issue like this and has some clue of what happens

goingnowhere wrote: »

Stop dodging fares and pay your way. Problem solved.

Perfect thanks. It's not an issue at the docklands station to pay there except for today

HotP0pp3r

corktina wrote: »

you wont get much sympathy on here! (not from me anyway)

Not looking for sympathy looking for someone who has been through the same court process....

corktina

the trouble is , it IS an issue, there are signs everywhere "no ticket, no travel"


edit...sensible advice...get a solicitor

pclive

Its good to hear that the revenue protection unit are out in force:)

schemingbohemia

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Yeah the fine is perfectly grand and I'm willing to pay but conviction for unpaid train fare is going to ruin my life and I'd just like to find out if there's anyone that has been in court over an issue like this and has some clue of what happens



Perfect thanks. It's not an issue at the docklands station to pay there except for today

It is an issue, you should never be paying at your destination.

From what you've stated I would doubt this is only the second time you haven't paid your fare, you seem to always wait until you get to Docklands to pay, why? Are you always late or are you chancing your arm that there might be open gates, no-one looking at Docklands?

HotP0pp3r

Wow useless advice from useless people. I'm really just curious about what the court process involves

corktina

told you so....

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

the groutch

if you pay the fine in full literally straight away, you might get lucky and have them not issue the summons.
the courts don't really want to waste time on relatively minor cases like this.

markpb

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

It's not an issue at the docklands station to pay there except for today

This kind of inconsistent behaviour from Irish Rail only serves to undermine their own processes and rules. Why is it so hard for them to be consistent in how they deal with their passengers. Why do individual station staff feel they have the authority to change the rules?

I'm not trying to justify your actions at all but it's easy to understand how people can be caught out when some IR staff let people pay at their destination and others fine you for doing it. Luas/Veoila have a much better approach - if you don't have a ticket, you get fined. There's a single message and it's conveyed well. There's no confusion, no schizophrenic staff sending mixed messages and no passengers wondering who is right and who is wrong.

Con Logue

What did the OP expect? Soothing murmurs of sympathy and a cast iron method of avoiding a criminal record? I often wonder is learned helplessness and evasion of responsibility is a result of being carted around in Mammy's Taxi right up to going to college and beyond.

Best advice I can give is contact a solicitor, pronto.

Solair

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Wow useless advice from useless people. I'm really just curious about what the court process involves

It would be the District Court, so a little bit Judge Judy style and by that I mean it wouldn't be a jury trial or anything like that.

You need to consult a solicitor ASAP. It's not something you should go in unprepared for.

Also if you've missed a court summons due to a false address that's kinda complicating matters further and may go against you.

Get a speaking solicitor this morning!

I would also refrain from incriminating yourself further by posting online about an impending case!!

schemingbohemia

markpb wrote: »

This kind of inconsistent behaviour from Irish Rail only serves to undermine their own processes and rules. Why is it so hard for them to be consistent in how they deal with their passengers. Why do individual station staff feel they have the authority to change the rules?

You're accepting the word of a fare dodger that it's ok to pay at destination at Docklands? He might be telling the truth, remember though this is Ireland where rules aren't the final word on anything and everything can be an exception......just look at the Gardai having a word with people driving in bus lanes or parking illegally or speeding, how many points have been quashed etc, we don't do rules in Ireland which has led us to the sorry state we find ourselves in today......of course i'll be renting out the other 2 bedrooms in my house, of course I always get a bonus of 30k a year, thanks I'll have that huge mortgage now please.....

schemingbohemia

Solair wrote: »

It would be the District Court, so a little bit Judge Judy style and by that I mean it wouldn't be a jury trial or anything like that.

You need to consult a solicitor ASAP. It's not something you should go in unprepared for.

Also if you've missed a court summons due to a false address that's kinda complicating matters further and may go against you.

Get a speaking solicitor this morning!

I would also refrain from incriminating yourself further by posting online about an impending case!!

Yeah cause the name is hotpopper on the summons....

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Solair

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Yeah cause the name is hotpopper on the summons....

From the circumstances of the case anyone with half a brain could figure out who he/she is and just use all the stuff posted!

Station names, dates, missed summons, false address, a student etc

It's not like there are thousands of cases or something ! Ireland's a small place

I mean, all it would take is a state solicitor to say (and I remind you you're under oath) are you "insert username"?

I wouldn't suggest posting details of anything that might end up in court online, ever!

the groutch

markpb wrote: »

Luas/Veoila have a much better approach - if you don't have a ticket, you get fined. There's a single message and it's conveyed well. There's no confusion, no schizophrenic staff sending mixed messages and no passengers wondering who is right and who is wrong.

unless you're an alco, druggie, or look like you might kill someone.
Veoila are even more inconsistent.

HotP0pp3r

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You're accepting the word of a fare dodger

Yeah, those darn fare dodgers. Always up to no good. You make it sound as if I'm a serious criminal......

HotP0pp3r

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Would you know what the punishment is usually for an offense like this??

Solair

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Yeah, those darn fare dodgers. Always up to no good. You make it sound as if I'm a serious criminal......

Given that you missed a summons, I would really take this more seriously!

You're not going for a chat with the school principal. A district court judge can quite easily throw someone in jail for really minor stuff.

Solicitor ASAP!!

You need a damage limitation strategy from someone who is a legal professional and proper legal advice.

These really minor things like unpaid fines, TV licenses etc can end up turning nasty if left too long!

Whether you think the law is reasonable or not is irrelevant at this stage. That's something you need to complain to politicians about.

Your situation at the moment is you have to deal with what is there and you absolutely need to take it seriously and get legal advice.

Nobody can advise you about likely outcomes on here. It depends on how the cases are presented in court on the day etc

Absolutely 100% definitely get legal advice ASAP though!
It's the only way you'll know exactly what your options are and if a court appearance could be avoided at this stage.

pclive

Oh and do let us know how you get on OP:)

mtjm

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Wow useless advice from useless people. I'm really just curious about what the court process involves

What did u expect? you broke the law, thought you could get away with it, and calling us useless?

MrDerp

Here fella, relax about the 'ruining your life thing' - this is a minor offense.

Don't believe what you hear about the States and Australia.

As a guideline, Australia care about offenses where either:
1. You were sentenced to a year or more in prison, or
2. The offense carries a one year prison punishment in Australia

In the US, you must be convicted of a felony (a crime considered a felony in the US) to have an issue (so it's a similar situation), with some exceptions
e.g. DUIs are not a felony, but repeated DUIs can lead to exclusion
Any conviction for drug possession will cause you issues

Unpaid parking fines / train fines are misdemeanor offenses, so don't worry. However, it's better to declare any convictions on entry. I've heard of people being denied entry for not declaring an offense, usually ignorant of the facts and hiding something small because like you they thought something like a conviction unpaid fines could deny them entry.

Edit: I'm not saying be casual about having to go to court, I'm just telling you to forget about the US/OZ thing and concentrate on the issue at hand, a summons to an Irish court.

oisindoyle

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Yeah, those darn fare dodgers. Always up to no good. You make it sound as if I'm a serious criminal......

There's no point coming on here asking for advice and people telling you what you did was wrong and then calling them "useless".

The reality is you didn't pay for a train journey ,gave a wrong address and now you are looking for some sort of sympathy.

You STOLE from Irish Rail ,that's the reality of the situation.Why should everyone else whp takes the train pay and you think it's ok to dodge the fare?

You also said you are a full time student and havn't got the money ,well if you havent got the money walk.

I bet you have enough money to go for a few drinks with your mates during the week and weekend though !

partyatmygaff

The thing is he asked a very specific question and most of the posts he's gotten back in the reply are from people who almost seem to be relishing in his predicament.

Which is what happens in most threads about fines, for some strange reason. Even fines that aren't deserved (not that that applies to this thread) get the same response from people on this forum.

I'd send off an email to railusers.ie, they're pretty knowledgeable when it comes to situations like this.

Victor

Folks, guilt has already been admitted, so lay off the judgemental stuff.

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Wow useless advice from useless people. I'm really just curious about what the court process involves

You need these people to help you. Abusing them isn't going to get you what you want

Moderator

HotP0pp3r

Where can someone like me even get the kind of legal consultant I need?

L1011

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Where can someone like me even get the kind of legal consultant I need?

Any solicitors office. You're going to have to pay though

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

HotP0pp3r

I didn't think an issue like this would require legal representation in court. Is this a criminal legal matter?

corktina

the summons is on it's way though, for first fine. Damn good idea to pay the second one!

Solair

It'd definitely be worth asking IE if they'd drop it if you pay now and apologise for the 'confusion' about your address.

I would however at least consult a solicitor to see where to go from here. It's probably not as expensive as you'd think to just go in and get some basic advice.

You can make up your mind how to proceed from there.

Whatever you do though, do not ignore any more summonses - some judges can get really narky about that kind of thing and see it as not taking the court seriously.

You're unlikely to be excluded from anywhere for non-payment of a public transport ticket, but you might have to keep declaring it on visa applications and ensuring you've documentation to prove that it was just that and it was an oversight / mix up rather than some kind of serious criminal matter.

Just don't ignore it, and whatever you do, don't get 'stroppy' with the judge if you are in court.
Your best bet at this stage is to probably to swallow your pride and just be quite apologetic and hope they'll be nice enough to understand it's a big mix up on your behalf.

You might even get away with a donation to charity in the court.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_trial/court_poor_box.html

This is why you'd need to be looking at getting proper legal help.

If I were you I'd get a few quid together to visit a solicitor and at least have a chat about what the options are and how to go about it.

Proper legal advice is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL if there's any risk of going to court.

lucernarian

+1.

Good post, Solair. It's imperative that the likes of a court summons is taken seriously if anyone wants to avoid a serious problem on their hands or if there is a risk of a massive fine or conviction.

Terrontress

Was the fake address entirely made up? Could you contact IE and tell them that you had moved and ask them to settle on the fines outstanding without court action.

Obviously less possible if you picked a street name off the top of your head.

If you do pay for a solicitor, make sure it's someone who understands the nuances of railway offences. Otherwise you'll pay more than the fine in legal fees and end up with the same anecdotal advice you'll receive here. That's for sure! The solicitor wouldn't even tell you he has no clue.

HotP0pp3r

Terrontress wrote: »

Was the fake address entirely made up? Could you contact IE and tell them that you had moved and ask them to settle on the fines outstanding without court action.

Obviously less possible if you picked a street name off the top of your head.

If you do pay for a solicitor, make sure it's someone who understands the nuances of railway offences. Otherwise you'll pay more than the fine in legal fees and end up with the same anecdotal advice you'll receive here. That's for sure! The solicitor wouldn't even tell you he has no clue.

Its not completely made up, the street name was wrong as its one around the corner from me. The postcode, area and house were all the same

Victor

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It would most likely be Irish Rail prosecuting, using CIÉ Group Solicitors.

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Is this a criminal legal matter?

Yes. The usual criminal law firms might have someone in that court on the day.

Terrontress

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

Its not completely made up, the street name was wrong as its one around the corner from me. The postcode, area and house were all the same

So there's no reason to say you weren't staying there temporarily and didn't get the documents. I presume a summons would come registered post so the issuing authority will be aware you didn't get it but not why.

Send them in a letter and, as they always say in England, tell them that you have learned your lesson, are ashamed, that such a misunderstanding is reckless and offer to pay the fine and any reasonable costs incurred by them. It will end up costing less than a solicitor.

You'll find that the office based staff will be more reasonable than those on the gateline.

goingnowhere

Just wait under oath and the prosecution asks, why did you give a false address, did you ever reside at this address...

Then this thread will be entered into evidence,

Enjoy Mountjoy...

schnitzelEater

Your attitude I'd very disappointing, OP.

Hopefully you won't be blocked from going to Australia or where ever though.

Next time give you proper address...

juice1304

set your alarm five minutes earlier go to bed earlier and then you will have enough time to get a ticket.

charlemont

Some of ye should be ashamed of yourselves, The OP is asking for advise and half the thread is full of half truths and judgemental rubbish, People trying to frighten the OP with ridiculous tales of outcomes than are unlikely to ever happen. I doubt ye would be as judgemental to ye'r corrupt politicians and paedophile priests..But sure yea go on and pick on the little guy...:cool:

Hilly Bill

markpb wrote: »

This kind of inconsistent behaviour from Irish Rail only serves to undermine their own processes and rules. Why is it so hard for them to be consistent in how they deal with their passengers. Why do individual station staff feel they have the authority to change the rules?

I'm not trying to justify your actions at all but it's easy to understand how people can be caught out when some IR staff let people pay at their destination and others fine you for doing it. Luas/Veoila have a much better approach - if you don't have a ticket, you get fined. There's a single message and it's conveyed well. There's no confusion, no schizophrenic staff sending mixed messages and no passengers wondering who is right and who is wrong.

Its really not that difficult to understand. Luas dont have booking offices on their platforms. They dont have easy going station staff who sometimes might let you away with the few cents if you are short or turning the occasional blind eye when they shouldnt when you arrive at your destination without a ticket. These guys are not the RPU , they are 2 different departments withing the same company. Would you prefer a zero approach from all staff ? I know that it should be like that but there are some within the company that have a heart and are on your side .

Terrontress

goingnowhere wrote: »

Just wait under oath and the prosecution asks, why did you give a false address, did you ever reside at this address...

Then this thread will be entered into evidence,

Enjoy Mountjoy...

Nobody has advised him to lie under oath.

All the advice here is to either try to stop it before it gets to court or else employ a solicitor.

The judge will have too many cases to start asking questions and if the solicitor begins to bring up threads from boards, the judge will kick him out of the courtroom.

Finally, be aware that the OP has maintained his willingness to have bought a ticket. It's all the self-appointed judges on here who have decided otherwise. This thread may go in his favour.

Hilly Bill

HotP0pp3r wrote: »

I was caught without a ticket back in November of last year but at the time I had no job and was attending full time college with no money. I had rushed to the station but didn't have time to get a ticket. Luckily an Irish-rail employee got on the train and fined me 102.80 even though I told him why I hadn't paid and had the fare with me. When he asked for my details I gave the wrong address as I couldn't afford the fine and I was so annoyed at the time, then nothing came of it.

However; now doing work experience, on my way in this morning to the Docklands station, where the guy who usually works there lets you pay at the machine when you get off, there was an army waiting behind the barriers ready to pounce on any passenger avoiding the 2.80 train fare. I told them I've never had an issue here before and he told me to stand aside and then fined me and rang "his" office as he called it. The previous fine showed up but with the wrong address and this time I'd given the right one so he confirmed it. He told me the fines increased to 152.84 which I completely agree with but he then tells me he's resending the court summons out to my house.

This sounds like a world of crap for me but I want to know does anyone have any advice or has anyone gone through a similar proceeding and just give me an idea of what these involve. I do not want to lose the chance to go to America or Austrailia for a year over an unpaid train fare...

Thanks

All Irish Rail care about is that you pay the money owed. Pop into them with the payment and that should be the end of it.

Hilly Bill

charlemont wrote: »

Some of ye should be ashamed of yourselves, The OP is asking for advise and half the thread is full of half truths and judgemental rubbish, People trying to frighten the OP with ridiculous tales of outcomes than are unlikely to ever happen. I doubt ye would be as judgemental to ye'r corrupt politicians and paedophile priests..But sure yea go on and pick on the little guy...:cool:

I'll leave that to After Hours.

pipie

charlemont wrote: »

Some of ye should be ashamed of yourselves, The OP is asking for advise and half the thread is full of half truths and judgemental rubbish, People trying to frighten the OP with ridiculous tales of outcomes than are unlikely to ever happen. I doubt ye would be as judgemental to ye'r corrupt politicians and paedophile priests..But sure yea go on and pick on the little guy...:cool:

I don't think the posters here are attacking the "little guy".
I think everyone is a little bemused that he does not seem to have coped himself on....he has been told clearly early on the importance of getting legal advice but now he appears to try and see if it is possible to dodge the solicitors.
So like me, I guess other posters here guess this "little guy" still takes the chances, and he could be back here moaning of his problems again.
Obviously he is young, so hopefully for the he will be grown up before it can happen again, and he will be at least neutral in the community and not taking away from it.

markpb

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its really not that difficult to understand. Luas dont have booking offices on their platforms. They dont have easy going station staff who sometimes might let you away with the few cents if you are short or turning the occasional blind eye when they shouldnt when you arrive at your destination without a ticket. These guys are not the RPU , they are 2 different departments withing the same company. Would you prefer a zero approach from all staff ? I know that it should be like that but there are some within the company that have a heart and are on your side .

The few that have a heart and are on "my" side are doing no one any favours. They lead me to believe that it's okay to buy my ticket at my destination until the day comes that I'm fined by RPU for doing just that.

This isn't about the staff who let people off a few cents, it's about staff who undermine their company's rules and regulations and who let people into a situation which they'll be penalised for.