Sad Tales Of Emigration

clairefontaine

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I'm the youngest of 5 kids and 3 of them emigrated in the late 80s/early 90s to the States as my parents couldn't afford to send them to college and there were no job prospects at home. They were all only in their late teens (but seemed so much older to me then) and I was from the ages of 9-12. It was so tough to see them go and I remember at that time not really getting it. I couldn't understand why they'd leave when they'd everything in Ireland (or so I thought) and I think part of me resented them for it. I was very close to them all and it took a lot of getting used to. From having a busy house full of people to 3 of us (my mam had died around that time too).

My brother has carved a great life for himself out there and is happily married with a little kid but we haven't lived in the same country for about 23 years. When I meet him now, it's like talking to a stranger. We're not really in contact and I don't really know who he is or what kind of person he is and visa versa. That's a killer tbh. I feel I miss him the most when he stands in front of me.

My sister's job brought her to Japan where she met her husband. She was always a home bird and she came home about 10 years ago, which I'm so grateful for. Her husband is American but he's very settled now in Ireland and there's no chance they'll ever go back there (I hope).

The other sister, the oldest, moved home the year before I left the country in 2004, so we got to spend one year in Ireland together (the only one in 23 years). She had two kids there but the economy changed and they had to move back to the States. Last year we did the Camino De Santiago together and it was like getting to know my sister again as adults. Twas a mad one but great.

I've been away from Ireland now myself about 8 years and although I play with the idea of going home, I know that realistically won't be the case for a long time and I'm okay with that. I'm happy.

I suppose the saddest part for me is the distance between myself and my two siblings in the states, one of which I barely know and not seeing my nieces and nephews growing up but I'm so grateful I've two siblings at home in Ireland still. I'm also sad for my dad; his own dad emigrated and died in NY in the 50s as well as 3 of his own siblings (and cousins, aunties etc.). I hate to say goodbye to him at Dublin airport as I know it kills him and he misses us terribly. Dublin airport has been almost like a second home to my family with the amount of comings and goings over the years.

Saying that, emigration is so much part of my family that it's probably not as traumatic for us as other families. Before I left it was almost expected that I would. We've all built lives for ourselves elsewhere and my dad knows we're all happy where we are and I know this gives him comfort. I don't see our emigration as a tragedy. We have live we never could have at home. I can't see us all living in the same country again but I'd prefer not to think about that. Such is life in Ireland right now.

This is what makes me so angry about this recession- the families being ripped apart.

THe celtic tiger was their once chance for familial continuity in a long history of poverty and emigration, and they blew it.

Both of my parents were emigrants. Out of my mother's seven siblings, one remains. The rest have gone to the US, the UK, and the continent.

We all grew up without contact with our grandparents, aunts and uncles, and cousins, the ties to blood relations were tenuous. This one brief flash of light in economic sustanance was a new chance for Irish generations to have some real contact with their families, aunts, uncles, grandparents etc, instead of dramatic reunions and separations at the airport alongside the occasional letter and brief phone call to people who are for the most part strangers.

I know people say with SKYPE and the internet, this all changes somewhat, and with cheaper flights, but does it really change all that much? We all know LDRs are tough and often fail, so I wonder if the SKYPE is just a small tokenistic illusion that makes us feel a little better about it all.

Perhaps some people can shed some light on this, but I have asked people who went through the Irish education system if they learn about the history of emmigration in schools, what happenned to all those people once they landed, the conditions that led to emmigration etc, because it seems too important to leave out.

I feel bad for the mothers who are raising their families knowing that one day they are just going to leave. It must inhibit your investments in your own family to know of impending departures.

EazyD

Great story OP, which many here I'm sure can in some way relate to. What bugs me is the fact that so little has been done to minimise emigration yet the government can siphon off annual tax takings without question. After watching the Kaiser report, discussing AIB and it's antics, I was genuinely disgusted when it was revealed that should insolvency occur, the bank can and may dip into depositor accounts, much like the case in Cyprus. Making a life for yourself in this country has become difficult enough for the majority, I just hope come next election we can get a government in who actually have a backbone and will cease to allow this madness to go further.

Legs.Eleven

clairefontaine wrote: »

This is what makes me so angry about this recession- the families being ripped apart.

THe celtic tiger was their once chance for familial continuity in a long history of poverty and emigration, and they blew it.

Both of my parents were emigrants. Out of my mother's seven siblings, one remains. The rest have gone to the US, the UK, and the continent.

We all grew up without contact with our grandparents, aunts and uncles, and cousins, the ties to blood relations were tenuous. This one brief flash of light in economic sustanance was a new chance for Irish generations to have some real contact with their families, aunts, uncles, grandparents etc, instead of dramatic reunions and separations at the airport alongside the occasional letter and brief phone call to people who are for the most part strangers.

I know people say with SKYPE and the internet, this all changes somewhat, and with cheaper flights, but does it really change all that much? We all know LDRs are tough and often fail, so I wonder if the SKYPE is just a small tokenistic illusion that makes us feel a little better about it all.

Perhaps some people can shed some light on this, but I have asked people who went through the Irish education system if they learn about the history of emmigration in schools, what happenned to all those people once they landed, the conditions that led to emmigration etc, because it seems too important to leave out.

I feel bad for the mothers who are raising their families knowing that one day they are just going to leave. It must inhibit your investments in your own family to know of impending departures.

I do agree with everything you're saying but this is an issue I have to just suck up. It's not going to change. If I think about it, I get upset and angry and that doesn't do anyone any good. I feel sorry for those who didn't want to go like my siblings originally who were scared out of their wits getting on the plane to the States (all only 18 or 19 and without Visas or jobs). I never thought things would work out this way when I was a kid. My brother, the one I've lost touch with, was my favourite and we used to hang out so much together. It's like a dream. I can't believe things have worked out the way they have through no fault of our own. But we are happy and he has his own family now. It's a mad one. It's something I always presumed as the norm but when you think about it, it's not.

I live in Spain where families are so close and emigration is still relatively low considering the situation here and they seem so happy. I used to scoff at how dependent they were on each other but I think that partly came from jealousy. It hit home that having bits of family all over the globe with little or no contact between them isn't how it was supposed to be.

clairefontaine

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I do agree with everything you're saying but this is an issue I have to just suck up. It's not going to change. If I think about it, I get upset and angry and that doesn't do anyone any good. I feel sorry for those who didn't want to go like my siblings originally who were scared out of their wits getting on the plane to the States (all only 18 or 19 and without Visas or jobs). I never thought things would work out this way when I was a kid. My brother, the one I've lost touch with, was my favourite and we used to hang out so much together. It's like a dream. I can't believe things have worked out the way they have through no fault of our own. But we are happy and he has his own family now. It's a mad one. It's something I always presumed as the norm but when you think about it, it's not.

I live in Spain where families are so close and emigration is still relatively low considering the situation here and they seem so happy. I used to scoff at how dependent they were on each other but I think that partly came from jealousy. It hit home that having bits of family all over the globe with little or no contact between them isn't how it was supposed to be.

You know Irish emigration seems to stand out in one way. You have several member of the same family emigrating to different places. In other cultures, like they all pick a spot and emigrate together.

And no it's not normal. It's disconcerting for me how people assume this recession is going to end, how it's a brief period of time and it will eventually be over, but from my perspective, the country was always in permanent recession and it was the boom years that were the anomoly. Now we have returned to normal. Well, normal for Ireland.

Where are the Spanish going to go? It's not like they have the natural english language skills that the Irish do? Or as many links to the Anglophone world either and Spanish isn't in demand as a second language either.

dxhound2005

Stinicker wrote: »

My aunt, her husband and two teenage children are returning to New York next month having returned to Ireland in 1999 to raise their kids here and enjoy the new so-called prosperous Ireland.

They will most likely never return to Ireland (other than a summer Holiday) having being burned here not once but twice, they left in the early 1980's and she spent 18 years in America before getting married and having two kids and then they returned here for a better future. Both of them have been unemployed with close to two years and they are walking away, the bank will probably foreclose on their house and they said it is not worth repaying the mortgage as there is nothing here for them or their children, they are not poor but like they said why should they live off the dole and erode their savings to repay the banks when the fraudsters who caused the mess gets away scott free.

Together they will earn more in their first month in American than several months of the dole here. They are honest hardworking people who want to work and luckily for them they are all American citizens having become citizens before coming to Ireland for fear something like this would eventually happen.

My mum is very sad as my aunt (father's sister) is one of my mothers dearest friends and she will miss her alot.

Ireland is in a very sad place right now and I'd love to leave myself but personal commitments are holding me here for the time being.

Put figures on that. How much will their combined salary be for the month and how many months of dole here will that equate to? They must have some good connections to be able to arrive in the US and both get immediate employment, even as honest hard workers and as American citizens.

The US has 7.6% of it's labour force unemployed and actively seeking work. Have they have some specialised skills not likely to be possessed by any the unemployed locals? What line of work will they be going into?

Anynama141

Stinicker wrote: »

They will most likely never return to Ireland (other than a summer Holiday) having being burned here not once but twice, they left in the early 1980's and she spent 18 years in America before getting married and having two kids and then they returned here for a better future. Both of them have been unemployed with close to two years and they are walking away, the bank will probably foreclose on their house and they said it is not worth repaying the mortgage as there is nothing here for them or their children, they are not poor but like they said why should they live off the dole and erode their savings to repay the banks when the fraudsters who caused the mess gets away scott free.

So let me get this straight: they are not repaying their mortgage even though they still have savings in the bank. Then they are going to boot off to America with their savings and leave the Irish taxpayer to pick up the tab for their house.

Perhaps they would rather be working and sticking around, but I can't work up too much sympathy for them when the debts they are leaving will be paid out of money that should be spent on schools and hospitals and public services while they live it up in New York.

clairefontaine

Anynama141 wrote: »

So let me get this straight: they are not repaying their mortgage even though they still have savings in the bank. Then they are going to boot off to America with their savings and leave the Irish taxpayer to pick up the tab for their house.

Perhaps they would rather be working and sticking around, but I can't work up too much sympathy for them when the debts they are leaving will be paid out of money that should be spent on schools and hospitals and public services while they live it up in New York.

The injustice is not that they re leaving.

The injustice is that the government is stealing people's money via the revenue service to pay the bank.

Legs.Eleven

And no it's not normal. It's disconcerting for me how people assume this recession is going to end, how it's a brief period of time and it will eventually be over, but from my perspective, the country was always in permanent recession and it was the boom years that were the anomoly. Now we have returned to normal. Well, normal for Ireland.

Yes, I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that we'll never all come home. Those two in the States definitely won't anyway.

Where are the Spanish going to go? It's not like they have the natural english language skills that the Irish do? Or as many links to the Anglophone world either and Spanish isn't in demand as a second language either.

Mainly Germany, the UK (for those with English), Argentina and Chile. Mostly to Germany, apparently as they've a relatively healthy economy. The lingo is definitely a handicap for them but they're spending huge amounts of money on English classes hence why I'm here and am never short of work (although I didn't know that before moving here). It's one industry that's booming.


Even with good English though as many of my students have, they see their future here. They'd rather rely on family support than leave but many don't have that choice and have to leave as the dole is 2 years max here then you're completely on your own.

Anynama141

clairefontaine wrote: »

There are a lot of people doing this, not just walking away from mortgages, but personal debts, you name it.

Perhaps if Ireland smartenned up with its insolvency laws, and the people weren't so supine about what the government does, you might have a different set of circumstances. I don't blame anyone for walking away from this crap.

There are lots of people who never bought and are still getting whacked out of their paychecks to cover the fraud of the banks and there has been ZERO consequences for the bankers.

In fact I hope the whole country emigrates. Leave these blood suckers with nothing.

Claire, you need to understand how this stuff works. Take a look at the banks:

1. Owned by the shareholders (usually pensions funds, investment funds, and ordinary small shareholders)
2. Run by senior management
3. Staffed by normal folk

During the bubble, the senior management lost the run of themselves and took excessive risks. They are supposed to be working for the shareholders. They did a lousy job, but you can't be jailed for being bad at your job. You can, however, be fired.

So let's look at the consequences of the bank collapse for the different categories:

1. Shareholders lost nearly all of their money
2. Senior management lost their jobs (albeit with ludicrous golden handshakes in some cases)
3. Large numbers of normal staff have been/will be let go.

Here's the current situation in the banks:

1. Owned by the taxpayer (except for BOI, which we own a minority of)
2. Run by new senior management
3. With a slimmed down normal staff, and more to go.

So - what consequences would you like to see for 'the bankers'? Which 'bankers' are you talking about? Who do you think gets hurt now every time someone defaults on a loan?

Anynama141

clairefontaine wrote: »

The injustice is not that they re leaving.

The injustice is that the government is stealing people's money via the revenue service to pay the bank.

But you don't understand: they owe the banks, and we OWN the banks. They owe US, and if they don't pay, WE PAY MORE.

crockholm

I remember having resentment towards some of my relatives at one stage, we were just after burying an elderly aul coot, when I got the call that I was given a job on the continent,and to be ready in 3 days time,when I told them of this I recieved congratulations all round, before they collectively began to start poormouthing (they are primary school teachers) about how sh!t their situations were, "they give with one hand and take with the other", and I'm in the room listening to this crap when I have to leave family and friends behind and work a 62 hour week!!!

I now have my own family abroad,and I am coming home for a 3 week holiday soon, but, I still yearn to return,with family in tow back to Ireland,hopefully thing will be better in 2-3 years.

clairefontaine

Anynama141 wrote: »

But you don't understand: they owe the banks, and we OWN the banks. They owe US, and if they don't pay, WE PAY MORE.

You dont own the banks. You have no say in how the banks are run. You will get no return for the money they are taking out of YOUR paycheck.

And when Anglo crashed, what did you get? Nada. What would you get if they succeeded and made hug profits? Also nada.

Anynama141

clairefontaine wrote: »

You dont own the banks. You have no say in how the banks are run. You will get no return for the money they are taking out of YOUR paycheck.

Wrong on all points aside from the say in how it is run. The Irish government, our representatives, have a say in how they are run however.

clairefontaine wrote: »

And when Anglo crashed, what did you get? Nada. What would you get if they succeeded and made hug profits? Also nada.

We didn't own Anglo when it went bust, did we?

Would you like to address the long post I wrote to you? It's annoying when you invest time to try to explain something and someone ignores the post because it challenges their preconceived view.

Legs.Eleven

Jaysus there's been a million threads on this already. Can we not just stick to the topic? Maybe some people would like to share their stories and vent a bit.

6541

This makes me sad, we need to stand up together, organise and get this great country back on track, We need to create a strong Irish Network across the world, lets have an Irish mafia in every city in the world and look out for our brothers and sisters and stop this fighting among ourselves!!!

Anynama141

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Jaysus there's been a million threads on this already. Can we not just stick to the topic? Maybe some people would like to share their stories and vent a bit.

Sorry Legs. You are right, there are loads of threads on it but people don't seem to be absorbing any of the information. I must have tried to explain this stuff 50 times already and you keep hearing the same bullsh!t about banks and the evil government and nasty austerity.

Economics should be a compulsory subject in school.

Paramite Pie

clairefontaine wrote: »

The injustice is not that they re leaving.

The injustice is that the government is stealing people's money via the revenue service to pay the bank.

The injustice is that they borrowed money from the bank and are now refusing to pay it back since they lost their jobs. But they're not bankrupt.

If I borrowed 400,000 quid to by a Ferrari, I wouldn't refuse to pay back the loan once the car devalues....

dxhound2005

6541 wrote: »

This makes me sad, we need to stand up together, organise and get this great country back on track, We need to create a strong Irish Network across the world, lets have an Irish mafia in every city in the world and look out for our brothers and sisters and stop this fighting among ourselves!!!

A good start would be to bring the campaign against property tax to foreign countries. Why should Irish people have to pay a family home tax anywhere?

Anynama141

dxhound2005 wrote: »

A good start would be to bring the campaign against property tax to foreign countries. Why should Irish people have to pay a family home tax anywhere?

Good point. Irish people everywhere should be exempt from property tax, yet in almost every civilised country they will be expected to pay it when they emigrate. How unfair is that?

CaraMay

clairefontaine wrote: »

The injustice is that the government is stealing people's money via the revenue service to pay the bank.

They are stealing from the Irish people by choosing not to repay the loan they borrowed for their house. Total toe rags.

purplepanda

So the family being referred to bought a house & paid the mortgage for an unspecified period, then have decided to stop paying, due to unemployment & hand the keys back to the lender. Saving their leftover assets to see them by whilst they move to a new life abroad.

Before anyone is critical of their decision, the question should be asked, how much was the mortgage for, how much deposit paid & how many years were paid up? Also how much is the property worth if it is sold afterwards by the lender in the current market?

Unless you know all the details it's hard to be critical of their decision & judgmental about how it affects everyone else in Ireland.

It's not as if they are in well paid work & refuse to pay their mortgage, AKA "Strategic defaulters", as they don't have the cash.

Stay in Ireland & costing the taxpayer an unspecified amount, due to future unemployment or "cheating" the taxpayer by an unspecified amount even though they don't have the money left to pay their mortgage?

Either way it could be said by some that they are costing the taxpayer, but no one really knows the exact figures to make an informed judgement on morals or otherwise of their decision. :rolleyes:

Anynama141

purplepanda wrote: »

It's not as if they are in well paid work & refuse to pay their mortgage, AKA "Strategic defaulters", as they don't have the cash.

They clearly do still have cash - their savings. So they are keeping their assets while ditching their liabilities.

Also, if you are suggesting they had equity in their house (which they certainly should seeing as they bought so long ago) then presumably they would just sell it and pocket that cash too, and pay off their mortgage? Clearly they are in negative equity. If they are in negative equity on a property bought in the late 90s, then they have also been withdrawing equity from it during the bubble. Using their property as an ATM, in other words, as property values bubbled upwards.

purplepanda wrote: »

Stay in Ireland & costing the taxpayer an unspecified amount, due to future unemployment or "cheating" the taxpayer by an unspecified amount even though they don't have the money left to pay their mortgage?

They still have savings. And of course the prospect of getting back to work.

purplepanda wrote: »

Either way it could be said by some that they are costing the taxpayer, but no one really knows the exact figures to make an informed judgement on morals or otherwise of their decision. :rolleyes:

One can make an educated guess along the lines outlined here with the information we have. Can you explain how the average property, 15 years into a mortgage, would still be in negative equity if bought before the bubble? Perhaps it fell down?

purplepanda

So if they could use their savings to pay up their mortgage & then sell their house why wouldn't they, even if they only received a small payment after the mortgage was adjusted & paid up to date.

I was under the impression you couldn't sell a house with substantial arrears, but I'd probably be wrong.

Don't see how you can be in negative equity after 15 years either, maybe they've used the value of the house for other loans? That's asking for trouble in the long run & the companies running such schemes should have been under much stricter controls.

It's still all speculation to me so unless someone comes up with a detailed breakdown, even speculative, I'm still not passing judgement.

Regarding savings, we don't know how much either, just enough to pay for flights or extra for a years house rental in reserve, nobody knows?

Anynama141

purplepanda wrote: »

So if they could use their savings to pay up their mortgage & then sell their house why wouldn't they, even if they only received a small payment after the mortgage was adjusted & paid up to date.

I was under the impression you couldn't sell a house with substantial arrears, but I'd probably be wrong.

You misunderstand: I said that IF you are suggesting the property is NOT in negative equity, then they would sell it and clear the mortgage. Nobody would have any issue with that of course.

purplepanda wrote: »

Don't see how you can be in negative equity after 15 years either, maybe they've used the value of the house for other loans? That's asking for trouble in the long run & the companies running such schemes should have been under much stricter controls.

That's what I'm thinking too - they borrowed against the house for holidays, cars, education for the kids, whatever.

purplepanda wrote: »

Regarding savings, we don't know how much either, just enough to pay for flights or extra for a years house rental in reserve, nobody knows?

Fair point, we don't, but I was guessing it was a decent chunk based on the post.

dxhound2005

purplepanda wrote: »

So if they could use their savings to pay up their mortgage & then sell their house why wouldn't they, even if they only received a small payment after the mortgage was adjusted & paid up to date.

I was under the impression you couldn't sell a house with substantial arrears, but I'd probably be wrong.

Don't see how you can be in negative equity after 15 years either, maybe they've used the value of the house for other loans? That's asking for trouble in the long run & the companies running such schemes should have been under much stricter controls.

It's still all speculation to me so unless someone comes up with a detailed breakdown, even speculative, I'm still not passing judgement.

Regarding savings, we don't know how much either, just enough to pay for flights or extra for a years house rental in reserve, nobody knows?

Nobody knows because the person who posted has never came back to answer any questions. Including mine about the very lucrative (judging by what was written) employment which the couple will both take up immediately on their arrival in the US.

Canis Lupus

I left Ireland in 2005ish? Got a nice job in London and met some great people and made brilliant friends. Some 7 years later I've moved to Australia for a bit of a break and likewise doing great here. Best decision I ever made leaving Ireland.

Oh no wait.... I'm in the wrong thread... This is about sad tales.... Erm.... Oh, my favorite dog died after I left Ireland... That's sad right?

dxhound2005

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I left Ireland in 2005ish? Got a nice job in London and met some great people and made brilliant friends. Some 7 years later I've moved to Australia for a bit of a break and likewise doing great here. Best decision I ever made leaving Ireland.

Oh no wait.... I'm in the wrong thread... This is about sad tales.... Erm.... Oh, my favorite dog died after I left Ireland... That's sad right?

I don't think you're Irish at all with your favorite dog. And you being a Canis Lupus I fear for any dog.

Canis Lupus

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't think you're Irish at all with your favorite dog. And you being a Canis Lupus I fear for any dog.

Both are correct. One just takes longer to type

Absolute Zero

One of the newer generation here. 21 years old and living in Holland. Nothing in Ireland for me despite trying to look for a job for ages. College here and hoping to find a job too. Might have to make my future here.

SeanW

Anynama141 wrote: »

But you don't understand: they owe the banks, and we OWN the banks. They owe US, and if they don't pay, WE PAY MORE.

And that's the problem. The banks should never have been nationalised or guaranteed. In a civlised country, like what the US was before the financial crash, gov't involvment in the banking sector was broadly limited to the FDIC or Federal Deposit Insurance Corportation. So a bank either made its way on their own, or they failed, in which case the FDIC stepped in, took over the bank and sold its assets to pay off retail depositors (who were insured up to $100,000 anyway) and everyone else (equityholders, bondholders etc) were told to go sling their hook.

It's not the emigrants fault in the OP that this was not done here.

Besides, look at it from their POV they may have had two choices.
With perhaps €10,000 in savings and maybe 10+ times that in debt they could either.

1. Pay the 10,000 to the bank but still never be able to pay the mortgage, continue to slide into bankruptcy and extreme poverty through what might be years of unemployment. So they file for insolvency protection, which results in them having to get rid of their car, rarely if ever do anything fun (since it would cost money) and have a bank overseer watching every cent they spend for the next 11 years to make sure they're not spending money on anything that could be used to pay down a debt they would never be able to pay anyway. Oh and BTW if they were offered a job in the 'States or somewhere they couldn't take it because they could never get the money to finance the move, i.e. their savings are gone.
2. Get the hell out with what little money they have left and try to pick up the pieces of their lives.

Any sane person would choose option 2.