Why Trains Lose Money

MGWR

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3-car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

Sounds like that train herein cited made money. If the passengers are not eschewing the train despite the service provided, and if IE are able to successfully maintain this level of passenger service while being able to economise on rolling stock (assuming the train in question can handle the wear and tear adequately), they therefore must be ahead of the game, especially when there are alternative modes of transport between Carlow and Dublin, including bus service.

RonanM123

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3-car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

First off Pink was playing in Dublin on Friday so extra capacity should of being provided to cater for demand and secondly I would prefer to be standing on a service than being delayed 40 minutes in Carlow waiting for the guards to come and arrest a group of lads who had a drum of petrol and were sniffing it from Dublin.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

I think Foggy's point I that if IE make a practise of running short trains which are over-loaded, passengers will vote with their feet and go elsewhere....losing passengers equals losing money.

There was no mention of overloading. People stand on trains everyday, some as a choice. Its part of the commute and no big deal.


I suggest that this thread be closed as it seems that it was only started to wind people up seeing that the OP has no intention of adding to it.

monument

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Hear, Hear.

I'll see you over in the infraction room, Alek.

That alone would have got you an infraction, but....

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Just to prove my point, I got an infraction for pointing out that we get infractions when we dare to call Shenanigans on certain golden posters. Golden passes obviously get some people more than just free rides on the train.

...that added to your other posts gets you banned for a week.

corktina

MGWR wrote: »

Sounds like that train herein cited made money. If the passengers are not eschewing the train despite the service provided, and if IE are able to successfully maintain this level of passenger service while being able to economise on rolling stock (assuming the train in question can handle the wear and tear adequately), they therefore must be ahead of the game, especially when there are alternative modes of transport between Carlow and Dublin, including bus service.

that's just a crazy way to run a railway. How do you know how many people eschew the service or don't? Being ahead of the game means providing the best possible service to compete with the other modes, not handing them passengers on a plate! Remember , standing passengers are not allowed on Coaches (or cars)

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There was no mention of overloading. People stand on trains everyday, some as a choice. Its part of the commute and no big deal.


I suggest that this thread be closed as it seems that it was only started to wind people up seeing that the OP has no intention of adding to it.

No intercity services should be operating with people sitting and standing at the doors.*

That kind of thing is ok for short commuter services but not for what Irish Rail are trying to sell as a Quality experience demanding a high premium fare over buses(which get most people to their intended destination faster).

You mention people standing by choice and yes this is the case on many trains but mainly on commuter trains where they are not going to be standing for over an hour and also on those Commuter trains there are specially designed handrails and grab rails not just at the end of cars but all along the length of the carriages.


Irish Rails motto should be Fail To Prepare - Prepare To Fail



*one off under-capacity is acceptable due to unplanned events etc but Waterford-Dublin-Waterford trains are regularly overcrowded and when school holidays start this year it will be the same story as every other year with the company failing to be ready.

MGWR

corktina wrote: »

that's just a crazy way to run a railway. How do you know how many people eschew the service or don't? Being ahead of the game means providing the best possible service to compete with the other modes, not handing them passengers on a plate! Remember, standing passengers are not allowed on Coaches (or cars)

I'm just relying on the OP's anecdote. Technically the train itself does make money, and I do agree that it is not a good way to run a railway. It'll take the passengers speaking up against the service in a big way to get the operator to react in a positive way.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

No intercity services should be operating with people sitting and standing at the doors.*

That kind of thing is ok for short commuter services but not for what Irish Rail are trying to sell as a Quality experience demanding a high premium fare over buses(which get most people to their intended destination faster).

You mention people standing by choice and yes this is the case on many trains but mainly on commuter trains where they are not going to be standing for over an hour and also on those Commuter trains there are specially designed handrails and grab rails not just at the end of cars but all along the length of the carriages.


Irish Rails motto should be Fail To Prepare - Prepare To Fail



*one off under-capacity is acceptable due to unplanned events etc but Waterford-Dublin-Waterford trains are regularly overcrowded and when school holidays start this year it will be the same story as every other year with the company failing to be ready.

Welcome to the thread.

Extra trains get put on when the demand is there Foggy and not just run for your benefit alone.
I personally dont think it was as bad as you want us to believe it was. Its just another excuse to run down Irish Rail . It seems to happen when the forum is quite on the Irish Rail bashing topic.
Did you get a seat on that train? Did you walk through every carriage to see what it was like or are you just going by the one that you were in?
Do you mention your concerns to Irish rail? For someone who has hatred for Irish Rail, you seem to use their services quite often.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Welcome to the thread.

Extra trains get put on when the demand is there Foggy and not just run for your benefit alone.
I personally dont think it was as bad as you want us to believe it was. Its just another excuse to run down Irish Rail . It seems to happen when the forum is quite on the Irish Rail bashing topic.
Did you get a seat on that train? Did you walk through every carriage to see what it was like or are you just going by the one that you were in?
Do you mention your concerns to Irish rail? For someone who has hatred for Irish Rail, you seem to use their services quite often.

It is bad always loads standing on this service some days. I know that foggy would like to run them down but I have used this service many times and there coudl easily be 40-50 standing. It has being like as far as I can remenber.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

that's just a crazy way to run a railway. How do you know how many people eschew the service or don't? Being ahead of the game means providing the best possible service to compete with the other modes, not handing them passengers on a plate! Remember , standing passengers are not allowed on Coaches (or cars)

Standing is allowed on trains and people are used to it at this stage . Having to stand now and then wont put anyone off using the train.

Standing in a car is just not possible .

markpb

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Standing is allowed on trains and people are used to it at this stage . Having to stand now and then wont put anyone off using the train.

Standing for up to 30 minutes on a suburban/urban train is fine. Standing for over an hour on a (sort of) intercity train is not. I definitely wouldn't be going back to Irish Rail (as opposed to Dart/Suburban) if I had to stand.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It is bad always loads standing on this service some days. I know that foggy would like to run them down but I have used this service many times and there coudl easily be 40-50 standing. It has being like as far as I can remenber.

I know that Irish Rail are reviewing some of its services in the form of demand and only feedback to them about overcrowded services will change that, if its possible.

Hilly Bill

markpb wrote: »

Standing for up to 30 minutes on a suburban/urban train is fine. Standing for over an hour on a (sort of) intercity train is not. I definitely wouldn't be going back to Irish Rail (as opposed to Dart/Suburban) if I had to stand.

I cant see the need to stand for over an hour on any train. if the carriage that you get on is full then move to the least full carriage as more than likely a seat will become available at the next stop or 2.

foggy_lad

MGWR wrote: »

I'm just relying on the OP's anecdote. Technically the train itself does make money, and I do agree that it is not a good way to run a railway. It'll take the passengers speaking up against the service in a big way to get the operator to react in a positive way.

People on the Waterford route don't have much choice since we had our bus service cut back and apparently synced with the train departures!

Bus Éireann cut the buses so at peak times the frequency is one every 3 hours, there is no Bus leaving Waterford between 3pm and 6pm meaning Carlow has no service to Dublin between 4.10pm and 7.10pm.

Then as if planned Irish Rail cut out their late afternoon service from Waterford at 4.50pm which stopped in Carlow at 6pm. When a company treat their customers with such contempt they cant realistically hope to keep them for very long.

Carlow should have the same sort of frequent bus service as several other large towns but it appears to be operated from Waterford so nothing will change for the benefit of passengers. Even with the hand-me-down buses off the 002 route which have the computerised/gps journey timer/log, I noticed recently that this excellent feature which tells the drivers if they are early or late is not being used on the Dublin-Waterford buses even though it is fitted in most buses.

MGWR

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I cant see the need to stand for over an hour on any train. if the carriage that you get on is full then move to the least full carriage as more than likely a seat will become available at the next stop or 2.

I have been on twelve-car EMU trains where standing for just about over an hour is a necessity. And these are regarded as commuter trains. Even with the standing, it beat the toffee out of sitting in barely-moving traffic for far longer.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know that Irish Rail are reviewing some of its services in the form of demand and only feedback to them about overcrowded services will change that, if its possible.

Not going to happen, it will not be extended. When the 09.10 services was running the very odd week they would run that as a 6 as it operates the 13.05 up however now its the 13.15 down the previous day that operates it and thats always a 3 car set apart from Friday and some Saturdays but on fridays it runs empty to Dublin and if 6 on a Saturday then 3 run empty to Dublin.

My most recent trip on this service was a few weeks ago and 104 of the 144 online seats were sold for a Tuesday and it was a 3 carrage train and anyone could of prodicted that there would be overcorwding and there was.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Standing is allowed on trains and people are used to it at this stage . Having to stand now and then wont put anyone off using the train.

Standing in a car is just not possible .

Standing on a commuter train which has been specifically designed to carry standees is a hell of a lot different to standing on a packed intercity with the catering trolley and all the other passengers pushing past you going to the toilets. The 22000's were not designed to have people standing in the aisles or at the doors, this must constitute a health & safety issue as there are no hand rails for passengers to steady themselves and the trains are not exactly stable with the state of the rails.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know that Irish Rail are reviewing some of its services in the form of demand and only feedback to them about overcrowded services will change that, if its possible.

Feedback?!

the station manager in Carlow was almost pulling his hair out at the start of June the last two years because despite reports of dangerously overcrowded trains from Carlow due to Students being off school the organ grinders decided in their wisdom to ignore their own staff! more capacity was not put on until July.

What makes you think these Tomas the tank Engine Controllers would listen to passengers when they ignore their own staff?

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Just to prove my point, I got an infraction for pointing out that we get infractions when we dare to call Shenanigans on certain golden posters. Golden passes obviously get some people more than just free rides on the train.

Like bk, not meaning to backseat anything, but attacking a poster because you don't like their post.... why not just ignore the thread.

Now back on topic. Does anyone remember trains on the Maynooth line in the 1990s? Standing room was in the guards van, and you alighted into the ditch. I know as I was there!

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

People on the Waterford route don't have much choice since we had our bus service cut back and apparently synced with the train departures!

Bus Éireann cut the buses so at peak times the frequency is one every 3 hours, there is no Bus leaving Waterford between 3pm and 6pm meaning Carlow has no service to Dublin between 4.10pm and 7.10pm.

Then as if planned Irish Rail cut out their late afternoon service from Waterford at 4.50pm which stopped in Carlow at 6pm. When a company treat their customers with such contempt they cant realistically hope to keep them for very long.

Carlow should have the same sort of frequent bus service as several other large towns but it appears to be operated from Waterford so nothing will change for the benefit of passengers. Even with the hand-me-down buses off the 002 route which have the computerised/gps journey timer/log, I noticed recently that this excellent feature which tells the drivers if they are early or late is not being used on the Dublin-Waterford buses even though it is not fitted in most buses.

Contempt Foggy????? Thats a slight overreaction dont you think?

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

Like bk, not meaning to backseat anything, but attacking a poster because you don't like their post.... why not just ignore the thread.

Now back on topic. Does anyone remember trains on the Maynooth line in the 1990s? Standing room was in the guards van, and you alighted into the ditch. I know as I was there!

I remember the Maynooth trains, Especially the 2pm one which started in Sligo, was usually freezing, packed to the doors and flooded with the overflow from the stinking toilets. Back then there were only 2 dedicated Maynooth commuter services morning and evening but usually one of them failed and passengers were forced onto the Sligo/Mullingar trains or onto the auld reliable 66. Remembering journeys like those is what drives people to buying cars or getting the much improved buses!

n97 mini

To treat customers with contempt do you not have to have a relationship with them in the first place?

I don't think IE has a relationship with any customers.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Standing on a commuter train which has been specifically designed to carry standees is a hell of a lot different to standing on a packed intercity with the catering trolley and all the other passengers pushing past you going to the toilets. The 22000's were not designed to have people standing in the aisles or at the doors, this must constitute a health & safety issue as there are no hand rails for passengers to steady themselves and the trains are not exactly stable with the state of the rails.

Packed and the trolley and people were still able to walk through the carriages???? How "Packed" was this train?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Contempt Foggy????? Thats a slight overreaction dont you think?

Why not respond to this post?

foggy_lad wrote: »

Standing on a commuter train which has been specifically designed to carry standees is a hell of a lot different to standing on a packed intercity with the catering trolley and all the other passengers pushing past you going to the toilets. The 22000's were not designed to have people standing in the aisles or at the doors, this must constitute a health & safety issue as there are no hand rails for passengers to steady themselves and the trains are not exactly stable with the state of the rails.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Like bk, not meaning to backseat anything, but attacking a poster because you don't like their post.... why not just ignore the thread.

Now back on topic. Does anyone remember trains on the Maynooth line in the 1990s? Standing room was in the guards van, and you alighted into the ditch. I know as I was there!

Thats not the topic though . The topic seems to be a busy train somehow losing money.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Packed and the trolley and people were still able to walk through the carriages???? How "Packed" was this train?

I personally think that once any person is standing on a train the trolley should be packed up and sale of hot food/drinks stopped due to the risk of standing passengers being scalded.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

Remembering journeys like those is what drives people to buying cars or getting the much improved buses!

I actually don't agree. As someone who lives on the line, it makes me complain to my local TDs etc., and try to get the service improved. It has done (Ma Harney was at the helm for most of it), but there is still lots of room for improvement, and I won't stop complaining.

The buses, don't get me started. Leixlip is one of the biggest employment centres in Ireland yet a town with a population of 14,000 that's 4 miles away (Celbridge) has to rely on company (funded by HP and Intel) to get people to work as Dublin Bus fail to see any need.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I remember the Maynooth trains, Especially the 2pm one which started in Sligo, was usually freezing, packed to the doors and flooded with the overflow from the stinking toilets. Back then there were only 2 dedicated Maynooth commuter services morning and evening but usually one of them failed and passengers were forced onto the Sligo/Mullingar trains or onto the auld reliable 66. Remembering journeys like those is what drives people to buying cars or getting the much improved buses!

Of course Foggy, someone remembers a journey they made a number of years ago so they buy a car instead. It make perfect sense .

Improved buses? You gave out about them earlier.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I personally think that once any person is standing on a train the trolley should be packed up and sale of hot food/drinks stopped due to the risk of standing passengers being scalded.

You wont get scalded by a ham sandwich and a can of coke.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why not respond to this post?

What post?