Why Trains Lose Money

foggy_lad

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

TheBandicoot

Why trains lose money? You're not one to ask that foggy when you're not paying anything for your journey. Maybe that's why they're losing money.

If the use of free travel passes was properly regulated for and the DSP made pay the correct fare for the actual numbers of users' journeys, then IE wouldn't be losing money. Let me clear that I support the free travel pass as a social benefit for the less fortunate, but it needs to properly adminstered and paid for, rather than the Irish solution of sweeping the true costs under the rug.

Slunk

Have you ever anything good to say about rail services? Or anything at all that isn't a complaint or a sly dig. What exactly is your problem with them. Its obviously a personal vendetta you have with them. Ffs get over yourself.The train was busy. You had to stand for a few minutes. Big deal.

markpb

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

There could be several reasons. Perhaps their cost base is so high that adding an extra 3 cars would make it too expensive to operator. Perhaps the load on that route would usually be sufficiently served by a 3 car train and they were caught unaware by the unusually high demand. Perhaps other trains are also busy at the same time and the missing 3 cars would serve more customers on a different route. Lastly, if everyone got on the train and only had to stand for an hour, Irish Rail wouldn't have made any extra money by adding extra cars to the trainset.

bikeman1

Oh dear, dozens standing! How terrible. It is my understanding that a lot of students from Carlow IT travel to Kildare when finished college and change there for their connecting train down the country. So a large number passengers get off at Kildare and there is some space for everyone.

Hilly Bill

foggy, i appriciate your frustration at a shorter train but was all the train standing room only or just the carriage that you were on?. Have you posted this because you didnt get a seat? Did everyone get on the train? How exactly did that train lose money? If that was your worse experience then you must have had it really good up to now.

Richard Logue

A big reason why trains lose money is the Free Travel scheme. What started out as an off-peak concession to pensioners now allows huge numbers to travel for free all day and Irish Rail or Bus Eireann certainly don't get that lost revenue back.

The Free Travel Scheme should be restricted to off peak hours only, outside of those hours pass holders should pay whatever the going fare is.

Captain Chaos

Part of this is there are about a dozen ICR sets lying idle in Laois TCD every day doing nothing on top of the maintenance spares when they could be out improving capacity instead of having passengers standing on an Intercity service. Standing is fine in stock designed for it like the Communter DMUs and DARTs

lanyard

Richard Logue wrote: »

A big reason why trains lose money is the Free Travel scheme. What started out as an off-peak concession to pensioners now allows huge numbers to travel for free all day and Irish Rail or Bus Eireann certainly don't get that lost revenue back.

The Free Travel Scheme should be restricted to off peak hours only, outside of those hours pass holders should pay whatever the going fare is.

The Free Travel Pass should be limited to the disabled & restricted mobility, we should not pay for pensioners on the double (state pension + FTP).

Dudda

You know you can book a seat online so you don't have to stand and before you complain about the cost a lot of discount codes are posted in the Bargain area here on Boards.ie

And if you do find yourself in a seat I'd expect you to give it up at an elderly or disabled person, pregnant woman, etc.

Richard Logue

I actually don't think anyone should get a free travel pass at all. If you have to give free travel to anyone at all, they should pay for their tickets and submit the ticket stubs or proof of purchase for a refund.

If an unusually excessive travel pattern is shown then there should be enquiires as to why there is excessive travel and payment may be withheld. In particular I would crack down on any use of a free travel concession to conduct business such as deliveries etc.

Hilly Bill

Apparently 1 in 4 people travelling on the trains have a travel pass and a good few of them are being used to commute to work. If CIE got repaid by the social welfare for ALL of the journey's made by the pass holders then they would be in a better financial position .

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Apparently 1 in 4 people travelling on the trains have a travel pass and a good few of them are being used to commute to work. If CIE got repaid by the social welfare for ALL of the journey's made by the pass holders then they would be in a better financial position .

CIE get circa €55 per head per DSP pass per annum from the Department of Social Protection. The cost to purchase an annual CIE travel pass giving you equivalent travel access (Train, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann) is €5,340.

Hilly Bill

€55 per year????? Thats just one return trip to Belfast on a Friday or Sunday.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

€55 per year????? Thats just one return trip to Belfast on a Friday or Sunday.

Yes, that is correct.

I should stress that I base that on figures provided at Dail Committee by DSP Secretary General, Niamh O'Donohue. She stated that 1.1 million people are covered in the scheme and CIE are getting €61 million.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/free-travel-payment-based-on-1973-survey-committee-hears-1.1326052

devnull

Dividing the total budget by the number of passengers who could use the service if they want to doesn't give a true figure though since it's based on one factual figure and one that would be the highest possible number of passengers.

A much better and more accurate figure would be achieved by dividing the paid figure to CIE in say 2012 by the number of people who used services that year.

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

Dividing the total budget by the number of passengers who could use the service if they want to doesn't give a true figure though since it's based on one factual figure and one that would be the highest possible number of passengers.

A much better and more accurate figure would be achieved by dividing the paid figure to CIE in say 2012 by the number of people who used services that year.

I based the figure on entitlement which is how it's paid to CIE as it's the only figure we can work with. A breakdown on actual usage would be interesting but it won't mean CIE get a better payoff for service offered and rendered; they have to work with what's given.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

Up until recently on Boards,it was both possible and desirable to engage with Foggy_Lad on his many,consistent and recurrring problems with Irish Public Transport,and more notably it's Staff.

Although some point to an antipathy towards CIE group companies,I see a somewhat broader context in the,by now,constant stream of vexatious issues relating to Public Transport's relationship with one single user.

However,as I note the first two respondents to Foggy's post have already recieved infarctions,it has to be assumed that any robust responses will be similarly sanctioned.

There are indeed numerous issues raised by Foggy,which merit debate,rebuttal and/or agreement,however none of this is possible in the current C&T climate.

Richard Logue

Alek I share your concerns and have sent you a PM.

n97 mini

Thread should be titled "why trains p1ss people off", or "why the bus is sometimes better".

I think trains lose money because of inefficiencies, due both to, but not limited to, work practices and political interference.

APM

As long as nobody got left behind on the platform, no fares were lost and CIE didn't have to put on an extra carriage to accommodate everyone saving themselves money in this case.

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

Is that all - a 3 car where people were standing ??? I was looking forward to an in depth report on 'why trains lose money', perhaps with some data and a few pie and bar charts thrown in. Instead the post is capped off with a sweeping statement - what a surprise !!!

Losty Dublin

steamengine wrote: »

Is that all - a 3 car where people were standing ??? I was looking forward to an in depth report on 'why trains lose money', perhaps with some data and a few pie and bar charts thrown in. Instead the post is capped off with a sweeping statement - what a surprise !!!

I had my hopes up with some passenger/fare ratio figures over the last 30 years along with comparisons and contrasting with DMU's and Park Royal sets with emphasis on the costings for fuel consumption, staff wages and offsetting carbon credits.

Instead we get more baseless and fact-less ranting from Captain Freebie. And it's pointless disagreeing and socking it to him; you just end up getting banned or infracted for doing so.

Losty Dublin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Up until recently on Boards,it was both possible and desirable to engage with Foggy_Lad on his many,consistent and recurrring problems with Irish Public Transport,and more notably it's Staff.

Although some point to an antipathy towards CIE group companies,I see a somewhat broader context in the,by now,constant stream of vexatious issues relating to Public Transport's relationship with one single user.

However,as I note the first two respondents to Foggy's post have already recieved infarctions,it has to be assumed that any robust responses will be similarly sanctioned.

There are indeed numerous issues raised by Foggy,which merit debate,rebuttal and/or agreement,however none of this is possible in the current C&T climate.

Hear, Hear.

I'll see you over in the infraction room, Alek.

bk

Folks, I apologise for the back seat modding, but I have to say the rules of boards are very clear.

The most important rule is attack the post not the poster.

If the poster posts something that breaks the rules of boards, report it and leave it to the mods to deal with.

If you just don't like the poster, just put him on your ignore list.

Simple

Slunk

Nice to see foggy coming back to thank the mods post but not to discuss his point further. Think ill take the mods advice and ignore him. Beginning to think he is nothing but a troll.

bk

Slunk wrote: »

Nice to see foggy coming back to thank the mods post but not to discuss his point further. Think ill take the mods advice and ignore him. Beginning to think he is nothing but a troll.

I just want to point out that I'm not a mod of this forum. I'm a mod of other forums and a very active user of this forum, but not a mod here.

Just in case you thought otherwise.

Jamie2k9

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

This is often an issue every week and not just Friday.

a - cost involved with adding another 3 car to the service down the previous afternoon.
b - 6 car would be to much capacity.
c - Waterford is probaly up there with most loss making service out of Heuston.

But the above dosn't excuse the actual problem which has being the same for years now.

When this happened on the Westport line they were provided with a bus transfer and capacity restored everyweek since.

In Irealnd trains lose money because of the free loaders and the fact that we have so many gate, road crossings and many of them have people employed to operate them.

corktina

I think Foggy's point I that if IE make a practise of running short trains which are over-loaded, passengers will vote with their feet and go elsewhere....losing passengers equals losing money.

bk

corktina is correct, Foggys point is that if people pay a high price for rail, but don't get a good experience they will take their business elsewhere.

However to the question in the title, the reason why trains lose money in Ireland is fundamentally down to the geographic and demographic make up of Ireland that makes it unsuited to rail based travel in the modern era:

- Small island with no through traffic.
- Majority of the population centred around Dublin
- The rest of the population scattered through out the country in very low density settlements and very car dependent.

The relatively high cost of rail requires high density populations within short walking distances of rail stations or well connected to rail stations with buses and trams/dart type city services. Outside of the Dublin area, we just don't have this.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I had my hopes up with some passenger/fare ratio figures over the last 30 years along with comparisons and contrasting with DMU's and Park Royal sets with emphasis on the costings for fuel consumption, staff wages and offsetting carbon credits.

Instead we get more baseless and fact-less ranting from Captain Freebie. And it's pointless disagreeing and socking it to him; you just end up getting banned or infracted for doing so.

Just to prove my point, I got an infraction for pointing out that we get infractions when we dare to call Shenanigans on certain golden posters. Golden passes obviously get some people more than just free rides on the train.

MGWR

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3-car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

Sounds like that train herein cited made money. If the passengers are not eschewing the train despite the service provided, and if IE are able to successfully maintain this level of passenger service while being able to economise on rolling stock (assuming the train in question can handle the wear and tear adequately), they therefore must be ahead of the game, especially when there are alternative modes of transport between Carlow and Dublin, including bus service.

RonanM123

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3-car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

First off Pink was playing in Dublin on Friday so extra capacity should of being provided to cater for demand and secondly I would prefer to be standing on a service than being delayed 40 minutes in Carlow waiting for the guards to come and arrest a group of lads who had a drum of petrol and were sniffing it from Dublin.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

I think Foggy's point I that if IE make a practise of running short trains which are over-loaded, passengers will vote with their feet and go elsewhere....losing passengers equals losing money.

There was no mention of overloading. People stand on trains everyday, some as a choice. Its part of the commute and no big deal.


I suggest that this thread be closed as it seems that it was only started to wind people up seeing that the OP has no intention of adding to it.

monument

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Hear, Hear.

I'll see you over in the infraction room, Alek.

That alone would have got you an infraction, but....

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Just to prove my point, I got an infraction for pointing out that we get infractions when we dare to call Shenanigans on certain golden posters. Golden passes obviously get some people more than just free rides on the train.

...that added to your other posts gets you banned for a week.

corktina

MGWR wrote: »

Sounds like that train herein cited made money. If the passengers are not eschewing the train despite the service provided, and if IE are able to successfully maintain this level of passenger service while being able to economise on rolling stock (assuming the train in question can handle the wear and tear adequately), they therefore must be ahead of the game, especially when there are alternative modes of transport between Carlow and Dublin, including bus service.

that's just a crazy way to run a railway. How do you know how many people eschew the service or don't? Being ahead of the game means providing the best possible service to compete with the other modes, not handing them passengers on a plate! Remember , standing passengers are not allowed on Coaches (or cars)

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There was no mention of overloading. People stand on trains everyday, some as a choice. Its part of the commute and no big deal.


I suggest that this thread be closed as it seems that it was only started to wind people up seeing that the OP has no intention of adding to it.

No intercity services should be operating with people sitting and standing at the doors.*

That kind of thing is ok for short commuter services but not for what Irish Rail are trying to sell as a Quality experience demanding a high premium fare over buses(which get most people to their intended destination faster).

You mention people standing by choice and yes this is the case on many trains but mainly on commuter trains where they are not going to be standing for over an hour and also on those Commuter trains there are specially designed handrails and grab rails not just at the end of cars but all along the length of the carriages.


Irish Rails motto should be Fail To Prepare - Prepare To Fail



*one off under-capacity is acceptable due to unplanned events etc but Waterford-Dublin-Waterford trains are regularly overcrowded and when school holidays start this year it will be the same story as every other year with the company failing to be ready.

MGWR

corktina wrote: »

that's just a crazy way to run a railway. How do you know how many people eschew the service or don't? Being ahead of the game means providing the best possible service to compete with the other modes, not handing them passengers on a plate! Remember, standing passengers are not allowed on Coaches (or cars)

I'm just relying on the OP's anecdote. Technically the train itself does make money, and I do agree that it is not a good way to run a railway. It'll take the passengers speaking up against the service in a big way to get the operator to react in a positive way.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

No intercity services should be operating with people sitting and standing at the doors.*

That kind of thing is ok for short commuter services but not for what Irish Rail are trying to sell as a Quality experience demanding a high premium fare over buses(which get most people to their intended destination faster).

You mention people standing by choice and yes this is the case on many trains but mainly on commuter trains where they are not going to be standing for over an hour and also on those Commuter trains there are specially designed handrails and grab rails not just at the end of cars but all along the length of the carriages.


Irish Rails motto should be Fail To Prepare - Prepare To Fail



*one off under-capacity is acceptable due to unplanned events etc but Waterford-Dublin-Waterford trains are regularly overcrowded and when school holidays start this year it will be the same story as every other year with the company failing to be ready.

Welcome to the thread.

Extra trains get put on when the demand is there Foggy and not just run for your benefit alone.
I personally dont think it was as bad as you want us to believe it was. Its just another excuse to run down Irish Rail . It seems to happen when the forum is quite on the Irish Rail bashing topic.
Did you get a seat on that train? Did you walk through every carriage to see what it was like or are you just going by the one that you were in?
Do you mention your concerns to Irish rail? For someone who has hatred for Irish Rail, you seem to use their services quite often.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Welcome to the thread.

Extra trains get put on when the demand is there Foggy and not just run for your benefit alone.
I personally dont think it was as bad as you want us to believe it was. Its just another excuse to run down Irish Rail . It seems to happen when the forum is quite on the Irish Rail bashing topic.
Did you get a seat on that train? Did you walk through every carriage to see what it was like or are you just going by the one that you were in?
Do you mention your concerns to Irish rail? For someone who has hatred for Irish Rail, you seem to use their services quite often.

It is bad always loads standing on this service some days. I know that foggy would like to run them down but I have used this service many times and there coudl easily be 40-50 standing. It has being like as far as I can remenber.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

that's just a crazy way to run a railway. How do you know how many people eschew the service or don't? Being ahead of the game means providing the best possible service to compete with the other modes, not handing them passengers on a plate! Remember , standing passengers are not allowed on Coaches (or cars)

Standing is allowed on trains and people are used to it at this stage . Having to stand now and then wont put anyone off using the train.

Standing in a car is just not possible .

markpb

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Standing is allowed on trains and people are used to it at this stage . Having to stand now and then wont put anyone off using the train.

Standing for up to 30 minutes on a suburban/urban train is fine. Standing for over an hour on a (sort of) intercity train is not. I definitely wouldn't be going back to Irish Rail (as opposed to Dart/Suburban) if I had to stand.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It is bad always loads standing on this service some days. I know that foggy would like to run them down but I have used this service many times and there coudl easily be 40-50 standing. It has being like as far as I can remenber.

I know that Irish Rail are reviewing some of its services in the form of demand and only feedback to them about overcrowded services will change that, if its possible.

Hilly Bill

markpb wrote: »

Standing for up to 30 minutes on a suburban/urban train is fine. Standing for over an hour on a (sort of) intercity train is not. I definitely wouldn't be going back to Irish Rail (as opposed to Dart/Suburban) if I had to stand.

I cant see the need to stand for over an hour on any train. if the carriage that you get on is full then move to the least full carriage as more than likely a seat will become available at the next stop or 2.

foggy_lad

MGWR wrote: »

I'm just relying on the OP's anecdote. Technically the train itself does make money, and I do agree that it is not a good way to run a railway. It'll take the passengers speaking up against the service in a big way to get the operator to react in a positive way.

People on the Waterford route don't have much choice since we had our bus service cut back and apparently synced with the train departures!

Bus Éireann cut the buses so at peak times the frequency is one every 3 hours, there is no Bus leaving Waterford between 3pm and 6pm meaning Carlow has no service to Dublin between 4.10pm and 7.10pm.

Then as if planned Irish Rail cut out their late afternoon service from Waterford at 4.50pm which stopped in Carlow at 6pm. When a company treat their customers with such contempt they cant realistically hope to keep them for very long.

Carlow should have the same sort of frequent bus service as several other large towns but it appears to be operated from Waterford so nothing will change for the benefit of passengers. Even with the hand-me-down buses off the 002 route which have the computerised/gps journey timer/log, I noticed recently that this excellent feature which tells the drivers if they are early or late is not being used on the Dublin-Waterford buses even though it is fitted in most buses.

MGWR

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I cant see the need to stand for over an hour on any train. if the carriage that you get on is full then move to the least full carriage as more than likely a seat will become available at the next stop or 2.

I have been on twelve-car EMU trains where standing for just about over an hour is a necessity. And these are regarded as commuter trains. Even with the standing, it beat the toffee out of sitting in barely-moving traffic for far longer.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know that Irish Rail are reviewing some of its services in the form of demand and only feedback to them about overcrowded services will change that, if its possible.

Not going to happen, it will not be extended. When the 09.10 services was running the very odd week they would run that as a 6 as it operates the 13.05 up however now its the 13.15 down the previous day that operates it and thats always a 3 car set apart from Friday and some Saturdays but on fridays it runs empty to Dublin and if 6 on a Saturday then 3 run empty to Dublin.

My most recent trip on this service was a few weeks ago and 104 of the 144 online seats were sold for a Tuesday and it was a 3 carrage train and anyone could of prodicted that there would be overcorwding and there was.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Standing is allowed on trains and people are used to it at this stage . Having to stand now and then wont put anyone off using the train.

Standing in a car is just not possible .

Standing on a commuter train which has been specifically designed to carry standees is a hell of a lot different to standing on a packed intercity with the catering trolley and all the other passengers pushing past you going to the toilets. The 22000's were not designed to have people standing in the aisles or at the doors, this must constitute a health & safety issue as there are no hand rails for passengers to steady themselves and the trains are not exactly stable with the state of the rails.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know that Irish Rail are reviewing some of its services in the form of demand and only feedback to them about overcrowded services will change that, if its possible.

Feedback?!

the station manager in Carlow was almost pulling his hair out at the start of June the last two years because despite reports of dangerously overcrowded trains from Carlow due to Students being off school the organ grinders decided in their wisdom to ignore their own staff! more capacity was not put on until July.

What makes you think these Tomas the tank Engine Controllers would listen to passengers when they ignore their own staff?

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Just to prove my point, I got an infraction for pointing out that we get infractions when we dare to call Shenanigans on certain golden posters. Golden passes obviously get some people more than just free rides on the train.

Like bk, not meaning to backseat anything, but attacking a poster because you don't like their post.... why not just ignore the thread.

Now back on topic. Does anyone remember trains on the Maynooth line in the 1990s? Standing room was in the guards van, and you alighted into the ditch. I know as I was there!

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

People on the Waterford route don't have much choice since we had our bus service cut back and apparently synced with the train departures!

Bus Éireann cut the buses so at peak times the frequency is one every 3 hours, there is no Bus leaving Waterford between 3pm and 6pm meaning Carlow has no service to Dublin between 4.10pm and 7.10pm.

Then as if planned Irish Rail cut out their late afternoon service from Waterford at 4.50pm which stopped in Carlow at 6pm. When a company treat their customers with such contempt they cant realistically hope to keep them for very long.

Carlow should have the same sort of frequent bus service as several other large towns but it appears to be operated from Waterford so nothing will change for the benefit of passengers. Even with the hand-me-down buses off the 002 route which have the computerised/gps journey timer/log, I noticed recently that this excellent feature which tells the drivers if they are early or late is not being used on the Dublin-Waterford buses even though it is not fitted in most buses.

Contempt Foggy????? Thats a slight overreaction dont you think?