Why Trains Lose Money

foggy_lad

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

TheBandicoot

Why trains lose money? You're not one to ask that foggy when you're not paying anything for your journey. Maybe that's why they're losing money.

If the use of free travel passes was properly regulated for and the DSP made pay the correct fare for the actual numbers of users' journeys, then IE wouldn't be losing money. Let me clear that I support the free travel pass as a social benefit for the less fortunate, but it needs to properly adminstered and paid for, rather than the Irish solution of sweeping the true costs under the rug.

Slunk

Have you ever anything good to say about rail services? Or anything at all that isn't a complaint or a sly dig. What exactly is your problem with them. Its obviously a personal vendetta you have with them. Ffs get over yourself.The train was busy. You had to stand for a few minutes. Big deal.

markpb

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

There could be several reasons. Perhaps their cost base is so high that adding an extra 3 cars would make it too expensive to operator. Perhaps the load on that route would usually be sufficiently served by a 3 car train and they were caught unaware by the unusually high demand. Perhaps other trains are also busy at the same time and the missing 3 cars would serve more customers on a different route. Lastly, if everyone got on the train and only had to stand for an hour, Irish Rail wouldn't have made any extra money by adding extra cars to the trainset.

bikeman1

Oh dear, dozens standing! How terrible. It is my understanding that a lot of students from Carlow IT travel to Kildare when finished college and change there for their connecting train down the country. So a large number passengers get off at Kildare and there is some space for everyone.

Hilly Bill

foggy, i appriciate your frustration at a shorter train but was all the train standing room only or just the carriage that you were on?. Have you posted this because you didnt get a seat? Did everyone get on the train? How exactly did that train lose money? If that was your worse experience then you must have had it really good up to now.

Richard Logue

A big reason why trains lose money is the Free Travel scheme. What started out as an off-peak concession to pensioners now allows huge numbers to travel for free all day and Irish Rail or Bus Eireann certainly don't get that lost revenue back.

The Free Travel Scheme should be restricted to off peak hours only, outside of those hours pass holders should pay whatever the going fare is.

Captain Chaos

Part of this is there are about a dozen ICR sets lying idle in Laois TCD every day doing nothing on top of the maintenance spares when they could be out improving capacity instead of having passengers standing on an Intercity service. Standing is fine in stock designed for it like the Communter DMUs and DARTs

lanyard

Richard Logue wrote: »

A big reason why trains lose money is the Free Travel scheme. What started out as an off-peak concession to pensioners now allows huge numbers to travel for free all day and Irish Rail or Bus Eireann certainly don't get that lost revenue back.

The Free Travel Scheme should be restricted to off peak hours only, outside of those hours pass holders should pay whatever the going fare is.

The Free Travel Pass should be limited to the disabled & restricted mobility, we should not pay for pensioners on the double (state pension + FTP).

Dudda

You know you can book a seat online so you don't have to stand and before you complain about the cost a lot of discount codes are posted in the Bargain area here on Boards.ie

And if you do find yourself in a seat I'd expect you to give it up at an elderly or disabled person, pregnant woman, etc.

Richard Logue

I actually don't think anyone should get a free travel pass at all. If you have to give free travel to anyone at all, they should pay for their tickets and submit the ticket stubs or proof of purchase for a refund.

If an unusually excessive travel pattern is shown then there should be enquiires as to why there is excessive travel and payment may be withheld. In particular I would crack down on any use of a free travel concession to conduct business such as deliveries etc.

Hilly Bill

Apparently 1 in 4 people travelling on the trains have a travel pass and a good few of them are being used to commute to work. If CIE got repaid by the social welfare for ALL of the journey's made by the pass holders then they would be in a better financial position .

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Apparently 1 in 4 people travelling on the trains have a travel pass and a good few of them are being used to commute to work. If CIE got repaid by the social welfare for ALL of the journey's made by the pass holders then they would be in a better financial position .

CIE get circa €55 per head per DSP pass per annum from the Department of Social Protection. The cost to purchase an annual CIE travel pass giving you equivalent travel access (Train, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann) is €5,340.

Hilly Bill

€55 per year????? Thats just one return trip to Belfast on a Friday or Sunday.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

€55 per year????? Thats just one return trip to Belfast on a Friday or Sunday.

Yes, that is correct.

I should stress that I base that on figures provided at Dail Committee by DSP Secretary General, Niamh O'Donohue. She stated that 1.1 million people are covered in the scheme and CIE are getting €61 million.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/free-travel-payment-based-on-1973-survey-committee-hears-1.1326052

devnull

Dividing the total budget by the number of passengers who could use the service if they want to doesn't give a true figure though since it's based on one factual figure and one that would be the highest possible number of passengers.

A much better and more accurate figure would be achieved by dividing the paid figure to CIE in say 2012 by the number of people who used services that year.

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

Dividing the total budget by the number of passengers who could use the service if they want to doesn't give a true figure though since it's based on one factual figure and one that would be the highest possible number of passengers.

A much better and more accurate figure would be achieved by dividing the paid figure to CIE in say 2012 by the number of people who used services that year.

I based the figure on entitlement which is how it's paid to CIE as it's the only figure we can work with. A breakdown on actual usage would be interesting but it won't mean CIE get a better payoff for service offered and rendered; they have to work with what's given.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

Up until recently on Boards,it was both possible and desirable to engage with Foggy_Lad on his many,consistent and recurrring problems with Irish Public Transport,and more notably it's Staff.

Although some point to an antipathy towards CIE group companies,I see a somewhat broader context in the,by now,constant stream of vexatious issues relating to Public Transport's relationship with one single user.

However,as I note the first two respondents to Foggy's post have already recieved infarctions,it has to be assumed that any robust responses will be similarly sanctioned.

There are indeed numerous issues raised by Foggy,which merit debate,rebuttal and/or agreement,however none of this is possible in the current C&T climate.

Richard Logue

Alek I share your concerns and have sent you a PM.

n97 mini

Thread should be titled "why trains p1ss people off", or "why the bus is sometimes better".

I think trains lose money because of inefficiencies, due both to, but not limited to, work practices and political interference.

APM

As long as nobody got left behind on the platform, no fares were lost and CIE didn't have to put on an extra carriage to accommodate everyone saving themselves money in this case.

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

Is that all - a 3 car where people were standing ??? I was looking forward to an in depth report on 'why trains lose money', perhaps with some data and a few pie and bar charts thrown in. Instead the post is capped off with a sweeping statement - what a surprise !!!

Losty Dublin

steamengine wrote: »

Is that all - a 3 car where people were standing ??? I was looking forward to an in depth report on 'why trains lose money', perhaps with some data and a few pie and bar charts thrown in. Instead the post is capped off with a sweeping statement - what a surprise !!!

I had my hopes up with some passenger/fare ratio figures over the last 30 years along with comparisons and contrasting with DMU's and Park Royal sets with emphasis on the costings for fuel consumption, staff wages and offsetting carbon credits.

Instead we get more baseless and fact-less ranting from Captain Freebie. And it's pointless disagreeing and socking it to him; you just end up getting banned or infracted for doing so.

Losty Dublin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Up until recently on Boards,it was both possible and desirable to engage with Foggy_Lad on his many,consistent and recurrring problems with Irish Public Transport,and more notably it's Staff.

Although some point to an antipathy towards CIE group companies,I see a somewhat broader context in the,by now,constant stream of vexatious issues relating to Public Transport's relationship with one single user.

However,as I note the first two respondents to Foggy's post have already recieved infarctions,it has to be assumed that any robust responses will be similarly sanctioned.

There are indeed numerous issues raised by Foggy,which merit debate,rebuttal and/or agreement,however none of this is possible in the current C&T climate.

Hear, Hear.

I'll see you over in the infraction room, Alek.

bk

Folks, I apologise for the back seat modding, but I have to say the rules of boards are very clear.

The most important rule is attack the post not the poster.

If the poster posts something that breaks the rules of boards, report it and leave it to the mods to deal with.

If you just don't like the poster, just put him on your ignore list.

Simple

Slunk

Nice to see foggy coming back to thank the mods post but not to discuss his point further. Think ill take the mods advice and ignore him. Beginning to think he is nothing but a troll.

bk

Slunk wrote: »

Nice to see foggy coming back to thank the mods post but not to discuss his point further. Think ill take the mods advice and ignore him. Beginning to think he is nothing but a troll.

I just want to point out that I'm not a mod of this forum. I'm a mod of other forums and a very active user of this forum, but not a mod here.

Just in case you thought otherwise.

Jamie2k9

The 2.11 from Carlow to Dublin possibly one of the busiest trains on a Friday rolls into Carlow station as a 3car train and not showing any destination. What numpty thought this would be sufficient capacity for a Friday afternoon? A quick scramble and the train is packed with dozens standing and a few stops to go before we get to Dublin.

People always remember and talk about their worst experiences and that is why irish rail will never amount to anything.

This is often an issue every week and not just Friday.

a - cost involved with adding another 3 car to the service down the previous afternoon.
b - 6 car would be to much capacity.
c - Waterford is probaly up there with most loss making service out of Heuston.

But the above dosn't excuse the actual problem which has being the same for years now.

When this happened on the Westport line they were provided with a bus transfer and capacity restored everyweek since.

In Irealnd trains lose money because of the free loaders and the fact that we have so many gate, road crossings and many of them have people employed to operate them.

corktina

I think Foggy's point I that if IE make a practise of running short trains which are over-loaded, passengers will vote with their feet and go elsewhere....losing passengers equals losing money.

bk

corktina is correct, Foggys point is that if people pay a high price for rail, but don't get a good experience they will take their business elsewhere.

However to the question in the title, the reason why trains lose money in Ireland is fundamentally down to the geographic and demographic make up of Ireland that makes it unsuited to rail based travel in the modern era:

- Small island with no through traffic.
- Majority of the population centred around Dublin
- The rest of the population scattered through out the country in very low density settlements and very car dependent.

The relatively high cost of rail requires high density populations within short walking distances of rail stations or well connected to rail stations with buses and trams/dart type city services. Outside of the Dublin area, we just don't have this.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I had my hopes up with some passenger/fare ratio figures over the last 30 years along with comparisons and contrasting with DMU's and Park Royal sets with emphasis on the costings for fuel consumption, staff wages and offsetting carbon credits.

Instead we get more baseless and fact-less ranting from Captain Freebie. And it's pointless disagreeing and socking it to him; you just end up getting banned or infracted for doing so.

Just to prove my point, I got an infraction for pointing out that we get infractions when we dare to call Shenanigans on certain golden posters. Golden passes obviously get some people more than just free rides on the train.