Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Gumbo

beyondpassive wrote: »

I've heard it said by a builder in Wexford, that they never knew building control officers left the office, but in the last year they have begun appearing on single house building sites. During the boom, The BC officer in one county used to do all his inspections in one day and meet his 13% quota, by visiting 2 or 3 developments, looking at a single house in a 200 house development from the road.

Interesting discussion on the BC(A)A at the Architects conference today, I'm folowing on twitter #riai2013

ive heard this too, during the boom, there were only 2 Offciers for Dublin City.
But you cannot meet your quota from a drive by viewing. You need to inspect various elements, request information on hardcore etc etc

Lazy comes to mind, and thats what i was trying to get across in one of my previous posts, hopefully that mentality has/will die out with the upcomming of fresher, younger, more eager staff.

4Sticks

beyondpassive wrote: »

The BC officer in one county used to do all his inspections in one day and meet his 13% quota, by visiting 2 or 3 developments, looking at a single house in a 200 house development from the road.

I do concede I may well have had such "visits" in my 18 years bp . Stealthy. "Ye won't even know we're here".

BryanF

completing a retro-fit with extension in Cork - the builder told me that BC visited "more than once" - its assumed that this is due to the type of mechanical ventialtion system , 200mm thickness of external insulation and general high specification that they were so interested..

cathal 1985

hello there, I have to do a project on how is this amendment affecting the professionals in the building trade. Where do I start and what is the greatest effect.

cathal 1985

I have just been given a project on this very subject, it's about how this amendment is affecting the professionals in the building trade? how do I start it and what exactly is the main affect? any help will be greatly appreciated!!!

Gumbo

cathal 1985 wrote: »

I have just been given a project on this very subject, it's about how this amendment is affecting the professionals in the building trade? how do I start it and what exactly is the main affect? any help will be greatly appreciated!!!

You could start with how the system runs currently, then explain the changes and go into detail on how you think the changes will effect the industry, standard of building, and what the end customer will get.

BryanF

cathal 1985 wrote: »

I have just been given a project on this very subject, it's about how this amendment is affecting the professionals in the building trade? how do I start it and what exactly is the main affect? any help will be greatly appreciated!!!

+1 kceire also read the riai, the x riai presidents, arch alliance & law opinions. there is a good linkedin page type in 'Arch tech'

mmcgarry

If planning is lodged prior to 1st March date am I under new or old regs???

kkelliher

mmcgarry wrote: »

If planning is lodged prior to 1st March date am I under new or old regs???

New as you need to have commencement cert lodged before 1st march

Open A

kkelliher is correct, all commencement notices from 1st of March will come under the new regulations.

There is huge concern among architects architectural technologists & technicians. What about engineers, surveyors, others?

kkelliher

Open A wrote: »

kkelliher is correct, all commencement notices from 1st of March will come under the new regulations.

There is huge concern among architects architectural technologists & technicians. What about engineers, surveyors, others?

As a qs we are becoming an ever increasing hidden entity where we don't figure in any form and don't appear to have any representation on the role of the profession going forward. I believe financial control of building is at the heart of why corners are cut by owners and builders and yet there is no mention of it, care for it or even taught put into this aspect. I personally think that the irish building industry is nearing collapse through the monopoly of vested interests over proper regulation

Open A

The biggest worry is that there is nothing in the current draft stopping the building contractor from appointing his own assigned certifer in-house. It is the ultimate in self-certification backed by professional indemnity insurance. Professional indemnity insurance only stands where the policy is still in place when a claim is made. Where is consumer redress when the assigned certifier has halted PI... or has died?

There is very little to ensure better building in SI80. Can we not learn something from the success of our H&S legislation. Whats wrong with LDI for consumer address (immediate address: let the insurers follow the individual players for redress through the courts) and independent inspection to ensure better building standards. The only way to ensure independent inspection is for it to be an arm of the state (employed or contracted out)

Open A

kkelliher wrote: »

As a qs we are becoming an ever increasing hidden entity where we don't figure in any form and don't appear to have any representation on the role of the profession going forward. I believe financial control of building is at the heart of why corners are cut by owners and builders and yet there is no mention of it, care for it or even taught put into this aspect. I personally think that the irish building industry is nearing collapse through the monopoly of vested interests over proper regulation

Is your view shared with other QSs? What does SCSI say about SI80?

kkelliher

Open A wrote: »

What does SCSI say about SI80?

I have not heard anything from them but then i am not a member for the simple reason that they do not in any way promote my profession to the wider public and i have no idea what they actually do. (Surly cpd should not be the sole reason they exist?)

Most qs's that i would know feel very disinfranchised from the industry

strongback

I would have a different view on qs's role in the current climate. Many projects I am working on seem to be led by the qs particularly when it comes to contractors side. I see qs's slipping more and more into the project management role.

My first bosses hated qs's he thought they had gotten well above their station 20 years ago!

Open A

kkelliher wrote: »

I have not heard anything from them but then i am not a member for the simple reason that they do not in any way promote my profession to the wider public and i have no idea what they actually do. (Surly cpd should not be the sole reason they exist?)

Most qs's that i would know feel very disinfranchised from the industry

Seems like a common feeling among many players in the industry!

kkelliher

Open A wrote: »

Seems like a common feeling among many players in the industry!

Completely agree. I have being operating as a quantity surveyor for over 15 years and I have never once lost a project or had an issue for not being "chartered" or a member of the SCS. I really don't see what they have ever done for "quantity surveying" as apposed to the multiple professions of surveyors that they make-out they represent. There is still a minority in the country who know what we do and the value we can add to a project and therefore what the SCS do with the near €400 a year membership fees is beyond me.

Supertech

Do you have to pay a yearly fee simply to be on the register kkelliher ?

kkelliher

Supertech wrote: »

Do you have to pay a yearly fee simply to be on the register kkelliher ?

yes I have to pay €400 every year

joeirish

Sorry if I missed it but I am trying to find out if I am affected by the new regs. I am planning to build a house, I have planning permission and I have the commencement notice. i'm just waiting for my current house to be sold (got an offer but waiting for the buyers to sell their house in England) before I can start the works. Some posts seem to suggest that as long as the commencement notice was issued before March 1st 2014 I operate under the existing regs, others say that I would have to have a substantial part of the house built by March 1st otherwise I will be subject to the new regs. Can anybody tell me which is the correct view.

Thanks

BryanF

joeirish wrote: »

the commencement notice

submitted

before March 1st 2014 I operate under the existing regs,

Open A

joeirish wrote: »

Sorry if I missed it but I am trying to find out if I am affected by the new regs. I am planning to build a house, I have planning permission and I have the commencement notice. i'm just waiting for my current house to be sold (got an offer but waiting for the buyers to sell their house in England) before I can start the works. Some posts seem to suggest that as long as the commencement notice was issued before March 1st 2014 I operate under the existing regs, others say that I would have to have a substantial part of the house built by March 1st otherwise I will be subject to the new regs. Can anybody tell me which is the correct view.

Thanks

Hi JoeIrish,

So long as the commencement notice goes in before 1st March you are under the old system. However, you must commence within 28 days of giving notice to do so. So if you don't plan to start the work until the end of March or later, you would be under the new system.

joeirish

Ah, didn't realise I had to actually start within 28 days. I had the commencement notice two weeks ago now but still waiting for a contractor to give me a price and start groundworks. What happens if I don't manage to get started within 28 days?

PS Anybody know of a contractor who can do groundworks in the East Clare area?

Open A

Technically the commencement notice is invalid.. you gave notice to commence, but didn't actually commence..

Open A

By the way, a debate about all of this stuff is just starting online..

Twitter: https://twitter.com/bregsforum
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/BRegs-Forum/717318874946169?fref=ts

joeirish

Open A wrote: »

Technically the commencement notice is invalid.. you gave notice to commence, but didn't actually commence..

Thanks for the reply.

So does that mean I just apply for another when I'm ready to go and if it is still before March 1st next I can build according to current regs?

Open A

If you get it in before the 1st March, you should be fine

fclauson

joeirish wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

So does that mean I just apply for another when I'm ready to go and if it is still before March 1st next I can build according to current regs?

Get your own spade and turn a sod - that means you have started

joeirish

fclauson wrote: »

Get your own spade and turn a sod - that means you have started

Ha Ha. I wondered about that actually but I think I have do have done something substantial. But not sure what that would be. There's a 6m by 7m garage/shed on the plans. So maybe if I start with that it'll be OK. Can't afford to actually start building the main house until the sale of this one has completed.

Gumbo

joeirish wrote: »

Ah, didn't realise I had to actually start within 28 days. I had the commencement notice two weeks ago now but still waiting for a contractor to give me a price and start groundworks. What happens if I don't manage to get started within 28 days?

PS Anybody know of a contractor who can do groundworks in the East Clare area?

How did you lodge a commencement notice with filling in the builders details in the space provided for? Whose name did you put down as a site contact?

Sounds like you made a hash of the CN to be honest.

Gumbo

Open A wrote: »

By the way, a debate about all of this stuff is just starting online..

Twitter: https://twitter.com/bregsforum
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/BRegs-Forum/717318874946169?fref=ts

Are you the mod on those sites?

joeirish

kceire wrote: »

How did you lodge a commencement notice with filling in the builders details in the space provided for? Whose name did you put down as a site contact?

Sounds like you made a hash of the CN to be honest.

Thanks for the very unhelpful comment.

Gumbo

joeirish wrote: »

Thanks for the very unhelpful comment.

I'm serious.

How did you lodge a commencement notice weeks ago if you haven't got a builder selected? The builders details must go on the notice.

You also have to give the details of the person that can be contacted about foundations.

That's why I asked how did you lodge a CN when you haven't even got a builder selected?

joeirish

kceire wrote: »

I'm serious.

How did you lodge a commencement notice weeks ago if you haven't got a builder selected? The builders details must go on the notice.

You also have to give the details of the person that can be contacted about foundations.

That's why I asked how did you lodge a CN when you haven't even got a builder selected?

You have made various assumptions. Like the council wanted details of a builder. This is a self build project, with a timber frame house being bought, which includes foundations (subject to the ground being cleared first). The council must've been happy with the information I gave. Otherwise they wouldn't have issued the CN, would they? Anyway, that has nothing to do with my initial question. I have a CN, end of.

So if you can add anything to my original question, then thanks. Otherwise there isn't really much for you to say, I'd have thought.

Gumbo

joeirish wrote: »

You have made various assumptions. Like the council wanted details of a builder. This is a self build project, with a timber frame house being bought, which includes foundations (subject to the ground being cleared first). The council must've been happy with the information I gave. Otherwise they wouldn't have issued the CN, would they? Anyway, that has nothing to do with my initial question. I have a CN, end of.

So if you can add anything to my original question, then thanks. Otherwise there isn't really much for you to say, I'd have thought.

The council don't issue a CN. You lodge one with them. Giving them the details of your builder and on site contacts.

Are you actually sure you have lodged a CN.

What county are you in?


Edit : so your on the Clare/Galway border.

Clare County Council CN, that YOU must lodge to them - http://www.clarecoco.ie/emergency-services/forms/commencement-notice-form-1409.pdf

Galway - http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Planning/ApplicationForms/FilesTable/TheFile,10519,en.pdf

joeirish

kceire wrote: »

The council don't issue a CN. You lodge one with them. Giving them the details of your builder and on site contacts.

Are you actually sure you have lodged a CN.

What county are you in?


Edit : so your on the Clare/Galway border.

Clare County Council CN, that YOU must lodge to them - http://www.clarecoco.ie/emergency-services/forms/commencement-notice-form-1409.pdf

Galway - http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Planning/ApplicationForms/FilesTable/TheFile,10519,en.pdf

Yes, I did lodge the CN and the council accepted it and sent me a letter saying that the CN is valid according to Article 9 of the Building control Regulations 1997. So yes you are technically correct that I lodged the CN but it is a useless document unless the council accept it. My point is that as they have accepted it there is no reason to keep on about whether it contained the right information or not. You seem to be trying to demonstrate that it was somehow not a proper CN. You seem more intent on proving some other point.

So just to repeat, there is a CN, it has been accepted as valid by the council. Nothing more to add to that. Now can we move the discussion back to my original question?

Gumbo

joeirish wrote: »

Yes, I did lodge the CN and the council accepted it and sent me a letter saying that the CN is valid according to Article 9 of the Building control Regulations 1997. So yes you are technically correct that I lodged the CN but it is a useless document unless the council accept it. My point is that as they have accepted it there is no reason to keep on about whether it contained the right information or not. You seem to be trying to demonstrate that it was somehow not a proper CN. You seem more intent on proving some other point.

So just to repeat, there is a CN, it has been accepted as valid by the council. Nothing more to add to that. Now can we move the discussion back to my original question?

That's fine, but the way you worded your posts made it sound like you hadn't. Your asking for advice on an Internet forum, so sometimes people need more information before giving advice.

If your this short with everybody else, then good luck.

BryanF

right lads back on track 'Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013'

joeirish

So, an update, which might be helpful to others.

The council building control are quite happy about a "couple of weeks" delay to starting building after the end date of the CN. And even if we still didn't mange to start works the only thing we would have to do is submit another CN and pay a fee of 25% of the original fee. No problems at all. This happens all the time. Only thing is to get started before March 1st to avoid new regs. And opening up the site, putting in some sort of driveway would count as the start of works, even if we then got delayed on the build of the actual house.

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

Open A

Brave Harvey wrote: »

I had a look at the Building control act 2007, I may give it another look but I think I may have to undertake a Professional Practice Exam!! I never heard of this, I have a Diploma max. and 4 and a half years supervised experience, don't know if that's recognized supervision. Any information on the above would be appreciated.

I'm afraid you are correct. There has been very little information put out there for people. Lots of people in your position and many others planning to build next year who are not aware that they will not be able to lodge a commencement notice

Join the debate (started yesterday!)
https://twitter.com/bregsforum
https://www.facebook.com/pages/BRegs-Forum/717318874946169?fref=ts
http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/

BryanF

Open A wrote: »

I'm afraid you are correct. There has been very little information put out there for people. Lots of people in your position and many others planning to build next year who are not aware that they will not be able to lodge a commencement notice

Join the debate (started yesterday!)
https://twitter.com/bregsforum
https://www.facebook.com/pages/BRegs-Forum/717318874946169?fref=ts
http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/

whats wrong with debating it here:)

Open A

Nothing at all, indeed I'll share this debate on the Blog!

sydthebeat

industry stakeholder amendments to SI 80 below

and, industry stakeholder amendments to proposed code for practise for assigned certifiers.
This is the first time many architects / engineers / surveyors will have seen whats included in this COP

Open A

sydthebeat wrote: »

revised SI 80 published

and, amended code for practise for assigned certifiers.


first impressions when it comes to self builders, it refers to a Construction Industry Register Ireland Registration No. (where applicable).

These are the industry stakeholder amendments and haven't been agreed by the DECLG

sydthebeat

Open A wrote: »

These are the industry stakeholder amendments and haven't been agreed by the DECLG

thanks for the clarification, ill edit my post to reflect his

Open A

no problem :-)

Open A

Self-building to be phased out under the New Regulations:
http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/self-builders-to-be-phased-out-under-s-i-80-bregs/

martinn123

Open A wrote: »

Self-building to be phased out under the New Regulations:
http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2013/12/04/self-builders-to-be-phased-out-under-s-i-80-bregs/

Well written piece, however Self-Building is still ok until 2015

Self-builders will be required under S.I.80, as clients, to employ a design certifier and assigned certifier (engineer/ architect/ building surveyor)- this is positive as it is unwise for a technically non-experienced person to undertake self-building without professional input. This should be welcomed as a positive development.

If a client is going to be the builder, currently that’s fine- self-builders can nominate themselves (as long as they consider themselves to be ‘competent’ and as builders are currently unregistered this seems to work well for self-builders. The only persons precluded from operating as contractors are Architects.

So, S.I.80 at the moment can only improve the quality of self-builds.

However when a formal register of builders is introduced in 2015 self-builders will need to meet the criteria to become registered, or will be precluded from this role. The criteria more than likely is a minimum of 3 years relevant building experience, tax affairs in order, relevant insurances in place etc.

So, in 12 months self-building will no longer be possible unless the self-builder is already an established experienced contractor, with their own insurances and tax-clearance documents etc. People who want to undertake works themselves are no longer able to do so. One unintended consequence of this is that rural landowners with some building experience who are capable of managing sub-contractors will no longer be able to inhabit this role- they will be forced down the more expensive route of appointing a main contractor to domestic or other projects that require planning permission (farm buildings, outhouses etc.)

Remember these are still draft reg's not signed into law yet, and there are plenty of bodies still making observations.

Open A

martinn123 wrote: »

Well written piece, however Self-Building is still ok until 2015


Remember these are still draft reg's not signed into law yet, and there are plenty of bodies still making observations.

You are absolutely right, but the Minister is expected to sign off on the current wording this week or next week. After that, we may be too late to do anything about it.

I'm a contributor to the BRegs Forum, do you know any other bodies making observations? We are trying to add more voices to our call for postponement and amendment of the proposed regs.. Thanks!

martinn123

Open A wrote: »

You are absolutely right, but the Minister is expected to sign off on the current wording this week or next week. After that, we may be too late to do anything about it.

I'm a contributor to the BRegs Forum, do you know any other bodies making observations? We are trying to add more voices to our call for postponement and amendment of the proposed regs.. Thanks!

From, as linked to by yourselves,

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/lessons-of-priory-hall-1.1560524#.Ulz2rgUnGr6.twitter

But Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan cannot avoid dealing equitably with the wider issue of building control. The amended regulations made by him do not go far enough, as they leave architects or engineers exposed to personal liability by certifying that the buildings they have designed comply with the regulations in every respect.

This is particularly unfair in the context of a building industry that remains largely unregulated, with only a commitment to introduce registration for contractors on a voluntary basis with a view to making it a statutory requirement in 2015 – if the Construction Industry Federation will agree.
Widespread unease among architects about the way some believe they are being “hung out to dry” led to several former presidents of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland (RIAI) to call an extraordinary general meeting of its members in Dublin tonight. What galls those involved is the apparent determination of the Department of the Environment to evade any responsibility on the part of the State or local authorities for failing to ensure that buildings are being built in compliance with the regulations, through regular inspections during the course of construction.

This disgraceful evasion must end.

Looks like the Irish Times is onside as well.