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Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

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12357…53

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    #122
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    The amendment regulations do not include ANY statutory requirement for building control site visits therefore NONE will happen.

    Then why is there a DOE requirement for LA's to inspect 18% of commencement notices lodged?

    Building control inspections WILL and DO take place.


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    #123
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    strongback wrote: »
    During the Q&A session one person stated he had worked on over €0.5 Billion of projects over 15 years in Dublin and he had only encountered Building Control once. This experience was reflected around the lecture hall.

    That I can understand. During the boom Dublin city only had 2 inspectors.
    That has changed now.

    4Sticks wrote: »
    In the context of Local Authorities and their activities Building Control Officer is an oxymoron. They don't visit sites.

    Yes they do.


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    #124
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,141 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    kceire wrote: »
    Then why is there a DOE requirement for LA's to inspect 18% of commencement notices lodged?

    Building control inspections WILL and DO take place.

    there is no STATUTORY requirement in the new regulations.

    They are specifically designed so as NOT to have local government culpability. If you are under the impression that there is some statutory number of inspections building control will have to make under the new regulations then im afraid you may read it again.


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    #125
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    there is no STATUTORY requirement in the new regulations.

    They are specifically designed so as NOT to have local government culpability. If you are under the impression that there is some statutory number of inspections building control will have to make under the new regulations then im afraid you may read it again.

    There may be no statutory requirement for inspections, the building control division is still responsible for the administration of the building regulation in their area so inspections will take place on that reason, and that's according to the senior person of my local LA.


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    #126
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,141 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    kceire wrote: »
    There may be no statutory requirement for inspections, the building control division is still responsible for the administration of the building regulation in their area so inspections will take place on that reason, and that's according to the senior person of my local LA.

    When the new regs come into force, builDing Control becomes nothing more than a bureaucratic storage system.
    Read what you've said again. They become responsible for the "administration" of building Control. They do not become "responsible for building control". That is left solo and squarely in the hands of the nominated certifier.


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    #127
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    kceire wrote: »
    Yes they do.

    No they dont.

    Ad infinitum.


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    #128
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    When the new regs come into force, builDing Control becomes nothing more than a bureaucratic storage system.
    Read what you've said again. They become responsible for the "administration" of building Control. They do not become "responsible for building control". That is left solo and squarely in the hands of the nominated certifier.

    Wait wait wait, I think there may be some confusion in what I said.
    I don't mean they are responsible for the building control on each particular site, that is left in the hands of the assigned certifiier, I have no issue with self regulation where it's done properly.

    I just maintain they the LA will still do site inspections to spot check particular builds and to make sure they are being built in accordance with the lodged plans.


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    #129
    strongback
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭strongback


    kceire wrote: »

    I just maintain they the LA will still do site inspections to spot check particular builds and to make sure they are being built in accordance with the lodged plans.


    From listening to the DoE civil servant there will only be LA intervention if problems occurs. Spot checks can take place but unless adequate resources are given to building control very little can actually happen in this regard. How many new building control officers will be appointed around the country. How many projects can they read the drawings for and then attend site?

    If the resources were available I am sure the government would choose an approval system over what we are now getting, the continuation of the self regulatatory system.


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    #130
    strongback
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭strongback


    If arch technologists who run projects are not allowed to be certifiers I think they should consider leaving the state, if that is an option to them. Having an honours degree and experience is more than adequate to be allowed to certify. Technicians with significant experience the same. Building surveyors, in my experience as an engineer, are nowhere near as knowledgeable as arch techs when it comes to the finer workings of the building regs.


    The whole sorry mess that is the construction industry in Ireland makes me want to jump on a plane. 6 years of grind and now Phil Hogan tells us we earn plenty of money. I don't know how much more I can take of these jumped up county councillor types we have running the country.


    I also think the DoE will end up with egg on their face over these amendments for the following reasons:

    1) the insurance companies have said they will not provide insurance to designers unless the wordings of the statement certificates are written in a way that is legally fair. The wording of the legislation is going to have to change.

    2) When the first test case comes up, as in a designer being sued for negligence. I strongly suspect a judge will deem the legislation to be unfair and unreasonable. It will be seen as too punitive.


    You do wonder in what world some of these civil servants live. It sure doesn't involve spending much time on building sites.


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    #131
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    strongback wrote: »
    From listening to the DoE civil servant there will only be LA intervention if problems occurs. Spot checks can take place but unless adequate resources are given to building control very little can actually happen in this regard. How many new building control officers will be appointed around the country. How many projects can they read the drawings for and then attend site?

    If the resources were available I am sure the government would choose an approval system over what we are now getting, the continuation of the self regulatatory system.

    Dublin city got 2 more this year. Up from 2 previously!
    Not enough to spot check every site though, but that's where the 18% inspection rate comes from. In reality though, they should hit more than that.


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    #132
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    strongback wrote: »
    If arch technologists who run projects are not allowed to be certifiers I think they should consider leaving the state, if that is an option to them. Having an honours degree and experience is more than adequate to be allowed to certify. Technicians with significant experience the same. Building surveyors, in my experience as an engineer, are nowhere near as knowledgeable as arch techs when it comes to the finer workings of the building regs.


    The whole sorry mess that is the construction industry in Ireland makes me want to jump on a plane. 6 years of grind and now Phil Hogan tells us we earn plenty of money. I don't know how much more I can take of these jumped up county councillor types we have running the country.


    I also think the DoE will end up with egg on their face over these amendments for the following reasons:

    1) the insurance companies have said they will not provide insurance to designers unless the wordings of the statement certificates are written in a way that is legally fair. The wording of the legislation is going to have to change.

    2) When the first test case comes up, as in a designer being sued for negligence. I strongly suspect a judge will deem the legislation to be unfair and unreasonable. It will be seen as too punitive.


    You do wonder in what world some of these civil servants live. It sure doesn't involve spending much time on building sites.

    You've got to remember that the LA staff are not the ones that dream up these new laws, either do county councillors.

    I do agree with your last statement/paragraph though.


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    #133
    strongback
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭strongback


    kceire wrote: »
    Dublin city got 2 more this year. Up from 2 previously!
    Not enough to spot check every site though, but that's where the 18% inspection rate comes from. In reality though, they should hit more than that.


    I've read the objective is 12-15% inspections. I read that on the building surveyors website.

    It's good DCC have more building control inspectors but it is likely they will get involved with enforcement issues on buildings that are already constructed I.e. the Priory Halls.

    DCC had been spot checking 6 building projects a year by employing third party consultants to do audits. I was involved in one of these about 7 years ago.


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    #134
    strongback
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭strongback


    kceire wrote: »
    You've got to remember that the LA staff are not the ones that dream up these new laws, either do county councillors.

    I do agree with your last statement/paragraph though.


    The jumped up county councillor I was referring to is Phil Hogan. He wouldn't know intelligent leadership if it clipped him around the head with a hurley stick.

    Hogan of course is an auctioneer. Auctioneers were getting a nice fat 2% for putting a sign in the garden and an ad in the local rag. He then says engineers who spend months on projects producing stacks of drawings and specs are well paid getting 0.75% (and a lot less on many government projects).


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    #135
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    4Sticks wrote: »
    No they dont.

    Ad infinitum.

    In Dublin city they do.

    As infinitum.


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    #136
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    strongback wrote: »
    I've read the objective is 12-15% inspections. I read that on the building surveyors website.

    It's good DCC have more building control inspectors but it is likely they will get involved with enforcement issues on buildings that are already constructed I.e. the Priory Halls.

    DCC had been spot checking 6 building projects a year by employing third party consultants to do audits. I was involved in one of these about 7 years ago.

    18% is the official figure ongoing.
    They are getting stricter. I have seen 10 commencement notices invalidated this month alone because of early starts due to increased control inspections. The the technical inspections will increase from now on too.


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    #137
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    kceire wrote: »
    I have seen 10 commencement notices invalidated this month alone .

    How did you come to have sight of these invalidations ?


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    #138
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    4Sticks wrote: »
    How did you come to have sight of these invalidations ?

    I couldn't tell you without giving away my employment position and location. But I can assure you it's personal experience.


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    #139
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks




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    #140
    dinglebay
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭dinglebay


    kceire wrote: »
    In Dublin city they do.

    As infinitum.

    Been in the business in Dublin since 1977 - last time a project of mine had a site visit from Building Control was 1980.


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    #141
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Well they have been running scared of this since that time. They do not do site visits. They will continue not to.


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    #142
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    4Sticks wrote: »
    Well they have been running scared of this since that time. They do not do site visits. They will continue not to.

    Its strange that you can maintain this opinion, when i know 100% to the fact that they do, well in Dublin City they do, fact. Maybe in Meath they dont.

    I would imagaine that ruling has little or no bearing on Irish BC officers as we do not approve plans over here.


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    #143
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    We find each other strange so :). Could be worse.


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    #144
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    4Sticks wrote: »
    We find each other strange so :). Could be worse.

    I can understand if you had a "BC Officiers do inspect sites at random but they have never inspected any of my sites" approach, but to state that "They do not do site visits. They will continue not to" is a false statement.


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    #145
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Well it is an opinion. Based on 18 years experience ( mostly in Dublin ) and before that 10 years in the UK.

    Where they actually DO inspect sites.


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    #146
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    4Sticks wrote: »
    Well it is an opinion. Based on 18 years experience ( mostly in Dublin ) and before that 10 years in the UK.

    Where they actually DO inspect sites.

    The UK is different though, with self certification over here, its randon spot checks that BC carry out, not approval inspections, which is only right, theres no point paying architect high fees for somebody to be signing off the work.

    Also, ive seen sites that were inspected, and when the officier contacted the architect for information, they had no idea that BC were even on site, the builder never told him/her.


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    #147
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    :) Sorry KC. Pointless for you and me to argue the toss about this. We are unlikely to agree on this point and so - on this point only - I won't engage with you any further .
    I do look forward to interacting on other issues.


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    #148
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    4Sticks wrote: »
    :) Sorry KC. Pointless for you and me to argue the toss about this. We are unlikely to agree on this point and so - on this point only - I won't engage with you any further .
    I do look forward to interacting on other issues.

    so you agree the BC Officiers do inspect sites but you just havent encountered any in your experience.

    In your own poll in this forum, out of 27 results, less than half were never visited.


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    #149
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    If you must ask that question there is no answer I can give to satisfy.

    See you elsewhere.


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    #150
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    4Sticks wrote: »
    If you must ask that question there is no answer I can give to satisfy.

    See you elsewhere.

    i have no issues with a difference of opinion, but to post blatent lies and then try say they are fact is silly.

    BC Officiers do carry out site inspections, as proved by the poll that you started, where less than half of responders never got a visit.


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    #151
    beyondpassive
    Registered Users Posts: 558 ✭✭✭beyondpassive


    I've heard it said by a builder in Wexford, that they never knew building control officers left the office, but in the last year they have begun appearing on single house building sites. During the boom, The BC officer in one county used to do all his inspections in one day and meet his 13% quota, by visiting 2 or 3 developments, looking at a single house in a 200 house development from the road.

    Interesting discussion on the BC(A)A at the Architects conference today, I'm folowing on twitter #riai2013


This discussion has been closed.
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