Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Villain

The answer to the parliamentary question is on the Dail record and it's clear what the Minister said, as long as a self builder can find an Engineer who will work with him or her and certify the build they can work away which is the same as it always has been.

I think people with vested interests are trying to make out the Minister doesn't know what he is saying, it's the same conclusion I came to with I read point 12 on the Localgov FAQ

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

What competency does a Builder strictly in Self Build need?

from the certificate:

I certify, having exercised reasonable skill, care and diligence, that the building or works as completed has been constructed in accordance with the plans, calculations, specifications, ancillary certificates and particulars as certified under the Form of Certificate of Compliance (Design) and listed in the schedule to the Commencement / 7 Day Notice relevant to the above building or works, together with such further plans, calculations, specifications, ancillary certificates and particulars, if any, as have been subsequently issued to me and certified and submitted to the Building Control Authority, and such other documents relevant to compliance with the requirements of the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations as shall be retained by me as outlined in the Code of Practice for Inspecting and Certifying Buildings and Works.

the above is the extent of the "competencies" a builder needs to have.

Ive bolded the bit where the builder needs to know the building regulations.
I think its safe to say novice self builders do NOT know the building regulations.


The Code of Practise also outlines the builders role:

3.3 Builder’s Role
The Builder should carry out the works in accordance with the plans and
specifications of the professional design team, their specialists and sub-consultants as necessary and have regard to these in accordance with the requirements of the Building Regulations.
The Builder (company or sole trader) should:
(a) accept from the Building Owner the assignment to build and supervise the
building or works outlined in the Commencement Notice;
(b) familiarise themselves with the drawings, specifications and documents
lodged with the Commencement Notice;
(c) ensure a competent person is assigned to oversee the Construction works;
(d) co-operate with the design team, the Assigned Certifier and other certifiers;
(e) ensure that the workmanship complies with the requirements of the Building Regulations;
(f) ensure that materials which they select and for which they are responsible comply with the requirements of the Building Regulations;
(g) sign the Certificate of Compliance (completion);
(h) provide to the Assigned Certifier, such documents for which they are
responsible, as may assist the Assigned Certifier to collate particulars for the
purposes of handover and certification, and/or for further submissions to the
Building Control Authority;
(i) ensure the coordination and provision of all test certificates and confirmations to the satisfaction of the Assigned Certifier or other designated inspectors or certifiers providing Ancillary Certificates; and
(j) maintain records.

ive highlighted the bits novice self builders would probably have difficulty with.

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

The answer to the parliamentary question is on the Dail record and it's clear what the Minister said, as long as a self builder can find an Engineer who will work with him or her and certify the build they can work away which is the same as it always has been.

I think people with vested interests are trying to make out the Minister doesn't know what he is saying, it's the same conclusion I came to with I read point 12 on the Localgov FAQ

i see your Dail record of the minister saying one thing... and raise you this , on Dail record, where the minister says entirely another thing to contradict your interpretation....


specifically this part

The owner will be responsible for ensuring that they appoint a competent builder – a register of builders, contractors and tradespersons known as the Construction Industry Register Ireland (CIRI) will be established on a voluntary basis for this purpose on or before 1 March 2014 and placed on a statutory footing by 2015 – and that they employ a competent registered professional to undertake the roles of designer and assigned certifier.

4Sticks

Villain wrote: »

I think people with vested interests are trying to make out the Minister doesn't know what he is saying, it's the same conclusion I came to with I read point 12 on the Localgov FAQ

But then again you don't have to account to anyone for your thoughts or advices do you ?


.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

from the certificate:


the above is the extent of the "competencies" a builder needs to have.

Ive bolded the bit where the builder needs to know the building regulations.
I think its safe to say novice self builders do NOT know the building regulations.


The Code of Practise also outlines the builders role:


ive highlighted the bits novice self builders would probably have difficulty with.

Yes all agreed, and assuming the works etc. are carried out to the satisfaction of the Assigned Certifyer, who is willing to sign his cert, this should not be a problem.

The wording is probably aimed more at the multiple unit builder, and sound onerous,

The self builder should, and will have to rely on his Professional Architect/engineer and pay a relevant Fee

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

I think its safe to say novice self builders do NOT know the building regulations.

lol seriously?? That's a very ignorant (literal meaning) view I would be confident that many self builders know the the regulations better that a lot of cowboy builders who the CIF will allow on register.

On reference to your dail question that you posted that was last November, the question I refenced was last week.

shane6977

Article in today's indo:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/new-rules-to-prevent-repeat-of-botched-buildings-30041874.html

No quotes in the article from person or organisation opposed to the regs!

Only one comment!

I suggest we flood the page with our concerns. I have written to the editor outlining the various groups opposed to the regs and asked for a more balanced report.

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

lol seriously?? That's a very ignorant (literal meaning) view I would be confident that many self builders know the the regulations better that a lot of cowboy builders who the CIF will allow on register.

On reference to your dail question that you posted that was last November, the question I refenced was last week.

doesnt matter when it was posted does it, it a contradiction by the minister on Dail record...

and on the building regulations.
It doesnt matter what you are confident in, i am working on the coal face and i can safely say ALL the self builders ive ever met in 14 years of building did not know the building regulations.
Some had little knowledge of some of the major regs, but not to a man did any of them know all the regulations that had to be followed.

So i would assert that your viewpoint is actually the ignorant one, in that your experience is based on ONE self build.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

doesnt matter when it was posted does it, it a contradiction by the minister on Dail record...

and on the building regulations.
It doesnt matter what you are confident in, i am working on the coal face and i can safely say ALL the self builders ive ever met in 14 years of building did not know the building regulations.
Some had little knowledge of some of the major regs, but not to a man did any of them know all the regulations that had to be followed.

So i would assert that your viewpoint is actually the ignorant one, in that your experience is based on ONE self build.

Maybe that's why he employed an Architect.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Maybe that's why he employed an Architect.

and now he must employ an architect AND a builder

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

doesnt matter when it was posted does it, it a contradiction by the minister on Dail record...

and on the building regulations.
It doesnt matter what you are confident in, i am working on the coal face and i can safely say ALL the self builders ive ever met in 14 years of building did not know the building regulations.
Some had little knowledge of some of the major regs, but not to a man did any of them know all the regulations that had to be followed.

So i would assert that your viewpoint is actually the ignorant one, in that your experience is based on ONE self build.

It's based on more than one, why is it certain professionals in this country think what they do is rocket science and people can't dare learn what they know.

I am pretty confident that when the list of competent builders goes online it will give me a good laugh with cowboys who wouldn't know what part L was if it smacked in the face will be listed because of their so called expierence!

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

and now he must employ an architect AND a builder

Not according to the Minister.

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

It's based on more than one, why is it certain professionals in this country think what they do is rocket science and people can't dare learn what they know.

I am pretty confident that when the list of competent builders goes online it will give me a good laugh with cowboys who wouldn't know what part L was if it smacked in the face will be listed because of their so called expierence!

and why is it people in this country treat the largest expenditure of their lives with disdain and the assumption that they can all be DIY heros?

as i said somewhere before there are some very good self builders, but there are also those that need to be saved from themselves.... and those that purchase their properties in the future need also to be protected from these "heros".

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Not according to the Minister.

youre going over old ground... ive already quoted the minister to you.

ive quoted the actual legal documents to you too previously... both of which state you MUST employ a builder.


everything else being posted here to the contrary has no legal status and only serves as spin and mistruths.

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

and why is it people in this country treat the largest expenditure of their lives with disdain and the assumption that they can all be DIY heros?

as i said somewhere before there are some very good self builders, but there are also those that need to be saved from themselves.... and those that purchase their properties in the future need also to be protected from these "heros".

That's fine and I agree some are clueless but I am also very certain that some useless cowboy builders will be on this register, so I can't see why a self builder whom an engineer is confident knows what he or she is doing can't be appointed as the builder??

4Sticks

martinn123 wrote: »

Yes all agreed, and assuming the works etc. are carried out to the satisfaction of the Assigned Certifyer, who is willing to sign his cert, this should not be a problem.

I never had you pegged as a wishful thinker before martin

martinn123 wrote: »

The self builder should, and will have to rely on his Professional Architect/engineer and pay a relevant Fee

If a self builder can locate one. Money will not talk all that loudly imo given the hightened sense , and actuality , of risk

Concerns that the new regulations prevent a self-build situation are unfounded, although all house builders must comply with the new regulations. An owner who intends to self-build will, as before, assume legal responsibility for ensuring that building or works concerned are compliant. The new regulations now require all owners to assign a competent, registered professional to certify the design and to inspect and certify the works. Confidence in the builder will be a key factor influencing a professional’s decision to accept these roles and owners who intend to self-build will need to be aware of this.

Full text here

Here the minister is clearly signalling to certifiers with the words I have empahsized - "careful now lads"

Furthermore , Paul Daniels himself ( you will like this - not a lot ) would be impressed with Hogans sleight of hand as he - in my opinion - is flys in face of the

Signature: ——————————————————————— Date: ———————— (to be signed by a Principal or Director of a Building Company only)
Name: —————————————————————————————————————
Address: ————————————————————————————————————
Tel: ———————— Fax: ———————— Email: ————————————————
Construction Industry Register Ireland registration number (where applicable): —————

part of his own SI . It is my beleif that he knows he is misleading would be seld builders and is teeing up the architects for blame over the coming months.

Many of you will swallow it too - which will be Grabys reward , fleas from laying down with this dog.

And last but not least what do people seriously expect the attitude of lending institutions will be to self builder direct labour applicants now?

Business as usual ?

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

That's fine and I agree some are clueless but I am also very certain that some useless cowboy builders will be on this register, so I can't see why a self builder whom an engineer is confident knows what he or she is doing can't be appointed as the builder??

i completely agree that there will be..... but at least we will have a registry hat he can be struck off .. which would in no doubt affect his ability to earn a living....

that would focus the mind in sure.

Villain wrote: »

I can't see why a self builder whom an engineer is confident knows what he or she is doing can't be appointed as the builder??

without a background in construction, or previous documented works carried out..... how can a certifier be confident in a 'novice' self builder?

serious question.

Happyman42

Villain wrote: »

That's fine and I agree some are clueless but I am also very certain that some useless cowboy builders will be on this register, so I can't see why a self builder whom an engineer is confident knows what he or she is doing can't be appointed as the builder??

Because the welfare of the citizen is not why this legislation is being enacted.

sydthebeat

Happyman42 wrote: »

Because the welfare of the citizen is not why this legislation is being enacted.

is the person that purchases the self builders home in the future not a "citizen" as well?

Happyman42

sydthebeat wrote: »

without a background in construction, or previous documented works carried out..... how can a certifier be confident in a 'novice' self builder?

serious question.

By doing his job maybe and checking every stage?

Happyman42

sydthebeat wrote: »

is the person that purchases the self builders home in the future not a "citizen" as well?

Are surveys and the usual caveat emptor being made illegal?

sydthebeat

Happyman42 wrote: »

By doing his job maybe and checking every stage?

so you are happy that the builder is absolved of responsibility when building????!!!!

you were great on the radio the other night Tom, great interview!!!

Happyman42

sydthebeat wrote: »

so you are happy that the builder is absolved of responsibility when building????!!!!

Did I say that?
I have nothing against regulation and meeting building regs.

4Sticks

Villain wrote: »

I can't see why a self builder whom an engineer is confident knows what he or she is doing can't be appointed as the builder??

Again what you see or do not see is not something that you can expect to be held to account for. Unlike those who envisaged to become certifiers.

sydthebeat

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are surveys and the usual caveat emptor being made illegal?

they are being replaced with "Certificates" and not "opinions"


it will not be possible to get a "certificate" retrospectively on a building after these regs are introduced.... so any house without one is immediately devalued.


your not in fully grasp of the scenario, are you?

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

youre going over old ground... ive already quoted the minister to you.

ive quoted the actual legal documents to you too previously... both of which state you MUST employ a builder.


everything else being posted here to the contrary has no legal status and only serves as spin and mistruths.

Well in fairness, old ground has been covered here for about 40 pages.

What has been posted is Opinions, most from vested interests,

If you want to disregard what the relevant Minister has stated, fair enough.

I like your comment " spin and mistruth" very topical to this debate.

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

without a background in construction, or previous documented works carried out..... how can a certifier be confident in a 'novice' self builder?

serious question.

He or she can outline their knowledge and show list of contractors they will appoint along with the research they did to ensure the contractors are competent, how many builders do that?

sydthebeat

Happyman42 wrote: »

Did I say that?
I have nothing against regulation and meeting building regs.

so would you be happy if i, the certifier, chared tyou a per hour rate to stand on site and make sure everything YOU and YOUR SUBBIES did, every process, and every material... complied with building regulations....

great, Ill sign up straight away.. let me see... 20 weeks should equal about €20,000 please (there would have to be travel costs as im sure youd agree )

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Well in fairness, old ground has been covered here for about 40 pages.

What has been posted is Opinions, most from vested interests,

If you want to disregard what the relevant Minister has stated, fair enough.

I like your comment " spin and mistruth" very topical to this debate.

NOPE

the actual SI 9 and the Code of practise says a builder must be appointed.

nothing has been posted to counter that.

4Sticks

Villain wrote: »

He or she can outline their knowledge and show list of contractors they will appoint along with the research they did to ensure the contractors are competent, how many builders do that?

So not

a person who possesses sufficient training, experience, and knowledge to enable them to undertake the project tasks they are required to perform

Fail.