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Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

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    #1082
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    4Sticks wrote: »
    So not



    Fail.

    What is sufficient ?


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    #1083
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    they are being replaced with "Certificates" and not "opinions"


    it will not be possible to get a "certificate" retrospectively on a building after these regs are introduced.... so any house without one is immediately devalued.


    your not in fully grasp of the scenario, are you?

    You are not fully grasping that that was what I was talking about. If you want to buy a house built before this legislation then you would be a fool not to survey.
    You say, all houses built after these regulations come in will have no problems whatsoever.
    Would I personally trust a 'certificate' at this stage, seeing how this is being rolled out...nope.


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    #1084
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    By doing his job maybe and checking every stage?

    Happyman- any certifier who wishes to survive in business will want to certain of a builders competence before , not during , the works. I would look for a track record , list of references and follow up on those references.


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    #1085
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    NOPE

    the actual SI 9 and the Code of practise says a builder must be appointed.

    nothing has been posted to counter that.

    Yes, agreed, but I think about 30 pages back we agreed the Self-builder could appoint himself.


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    #1086
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You are not fully grasping that that was what I was talking about. If you want to buy a house built before this legislation then you would be a fool not to survey.
    You say, all houses built after these regulations come in will have no problems whatsoever.
    Would I personally trust a 'certificate' at this stage, seeing how this is being rolled out...nope.

    you still should after 01 March
    no he didn't
    see first line again


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    #1087
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Self-builder could appoint himself.

    No. He can't.


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    #1088
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    4Sticks wrote: »
    No. He can't.

    The Minister says he can? Who should one trust a user on boards or the Minister who gave a reply on Dail record??


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    #1089
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,003 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Villain wrote: »
    The Minister says he can? Who should one trust a user on boards or the Minister who gave a reply on Dail record??

    a minister who contradicts himself on dail record?


    or do you belive what the law actual says?


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    #1090
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    4Sticks wrote: »
    No. He can't.

    Opinion.......don't get me started on opinions....


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    #1091
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    I read the legislation and it isn't clear, I would be going on what the Minister stated when questioned last week,


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    #1092
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Villain wrote: »
    The Minister says he can? Who should one trust a user on boards or the Minister who gave a reply on Dail record??

    Which poster do you suggest others should doubt Villain.

    (Rhetorical)


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    #1093
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Opinion.......don't get me started on opinions....

    I backed mine up. Here
    Over to you now.

    .


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    #1094
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Opinion.......don't get me stated on opinions....

    It's absolutely only opinion at this stage. Never seen such confusion with legislation due to come into force in a coupe of days.


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    #1095
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Lets watch it grow...


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    #1096
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Villain wrote: »
    I read the legislation and it isn't clear, I would be going on what the Minister stated when questioned last week,

    And you have your PI cover in place to compensate those who rely on your advice - just in case you are wrong. Right?


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    #1097
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    4Sticks wrote: »
    I backed mine up.
    Over to you now.

    I guess we will both have to wait a few years, until a Judge adjudicates on a real case.
    Neither of us has the ability to assume what the outcome will be.
    Until then, we should try to make a living by abiding by whatever regulations are put in place, until we can canvass successfully to change them.
    Till then, if the Minister says it's OK, then it's OK.
    podcast it, screen-save it, and print it off, and produce his words in court, if the need arises.


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    #1098
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Agreed Martin. About the Judge part not the minister.
    We should be able to see a sooner affect by watching CSO stats on house starts.
    Check in around September to see a trend I reckon.


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    #1099
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    4Sticks wrote: »
    Agreed Martin. About the Judge part not the minister.
    .

    great governance, we have to wait until it gets to a court to see if it works.


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    #1100
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,232 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Lads, calm it down or bans and infractions will start being handed out.

    And any more sweeping generalisations against either construction professionals or self-builders may also be actioned if deemed necessary. Just like with every profession/trade, most are good, some are bad. Don't tar everyone with the same brush, particularly when you're doing so knowing you'll get a rise out of other posters.


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    #1101
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ...well, it's started already: the number of people I've had on at work in the last two days trying to beat the March 1st deadline is unbelievable.

    I had two cold callers today, who are clearing sites with a view to having 'started' by this Friday.......

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #1102
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    The impact on one off housing can be tracked here.


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    #1103
    Hairy mellon
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Hairy mellon


    4Sticks wrote: »
    The impact on one off housing can be tracked here.


    great site
    shame we cant track non-residential projects also


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    #1104
    Hairy mellon
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Hairy mellon


    breg blog: Interesting. We noted that the localgov.ie FAQ section was offline earlier this week. It would appear the section dealing with self-builders Question 12 has been revised. Here is the newly worded section- read below for comparison with previous. Can you spot the differences?

    CURRENT "REVISED" VERSION

    12. Can I build my own house myself or by direct labour?

    Yes. You may appoint yourself as the builder and sign the Certificate of compliance (Undertaking by Builder). As the builder, you are responsible for compliance with the Building Regulations. You must sign the Certificate of Compliance on Completion and you must also appoint an Assigned Certifier to inspect the works during construction.

    As an owner, how can I appoint a competent builder?

    A competent person may generally be regarded as a person who possesses sufficient training, experience, and knowledge to enable them to undertake the project tasks they are required to perform having regard to the nature of the project and its scale and complexity. Competence can be verified, for instance, by reference to involvement on previous similar projects. One way of choosing a competent builder is to select a builder included on the Construction Industry Register Ireland (CIRI). Further details may be found on www.ciri.ie

    PREVIOUS VERSION (LAST WEEK)

    12. Can I build my own house by direct labour?

    Yes. You must appoint yourself as the builder and sign the Certificate of Compliance (Undertaking by Builder) document. As the builder, you are responsible for compliance with the Building Regulations. You must sign the Certificate of Compliance on Completion and you must also appoint an Assigned Certifier to inspect the works during construction. Preferably, the builder should be registered with the Construction Industry Federation and should provide a ‘Construction Industry Register Ireland’ (CIRI) number. Further details can be found on www.cif.ie.


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    #1105
    Hairy mellon
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Hairy mellon


    quote form breg blog:
    In the following exchange Minister Hogan appears to reverse his previous position on self-building. He suggests the role of builder should be a separate appointment, with no mention of an owner undertaking the role of builder. This view is supported by recent legal advice obtained by the representative body for self-builders in Ireland (IAOSB) and separately confirmed yesterday in a CPD event attended by 500 architects run by the architects' representative body, the RIAI in the Aviva stadium. Keynote RIAI speaker, Orla Fitzgerald, suggested that under the Code of Practice definition self-bulding would no longer be possible after 1st March 2014.

    The minister appears to be recommending that the voluntary register, CIRI, the privately run voluntary directory and register established and operated by the Construction industry Federation will be the standard for competency for the role for builder under Building Control (Amendment) Regulation (SI.9 of 2014).

    Link here:

    http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-11-06a.262&s=%22Phil+hogan%22+register+builders#g264.r


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    #1106
    jiminho
    Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭jiminho


    Hairy mellon wrote: »
    breg blog: Interesting. We noted that the localgov.ie FAQ section was offline earlier this week. It would appear the section dealing with self-builders Question 12 has been revised. Here is the newly worded section- read below for comparison with previous. Can you spot the differences?

    CURRENT "REVISED" VERSION

    12. Can I build my own house myself or by direct labour?

    Yes. You may appoint yourself as the builder and sign the Certificate of compliance (Undertaking by Builder). As the builder, you are responsible for compliance with the Building Regulations. You must sign the Certificate of Compliance on Completion and you must also appoint an Assigned Certifier to inspect the works during construction.

    As an owner, how can I appoint a competent builder?

    A competent person may generally be regarded as a person who possesses sufficient training, experience, and knowledge to enable them to undertake the project tasks they are required to perform having regard to the nature of the project and its scale and complexity. Competence can be verified, for instance, by reference to involvement on previous similar projects. One way of choosing a competent builder is to select a builder included on the Construction Industry Register Ireland (CIRI). Further details may be found on www.ciri.ie

    PREVIOUS VERSION (LAST WEEK)

    12. Can I build my own house by direct labour?

    Yes. You must appoint yourself as the builder and sign the Certificate of Compliance (Undertaking by Builder) document. As the builder, you are responsible for compliance with the Building Regulations. You must sign the Certificate of Compliance on Completion and you must also appoint an Assigned Certifier to inspect the works during construction. Preferably, the builder should be registered with the Construction Industry Federation and should provide a ‘Construction Industry Register Ireland’ (CIRI) number. Further details can be found on www.cif.ie.

    Excellent news, now hopefully they'll stick to it!!!


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    #1107
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    4Sticks wrote: »
    And you have your PI cover in place to compensate those who rely on your advice - just in case you are wrong. Right?

    PI for posting an opinion on a forum ??


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    #1108
    pobber1
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭pobber1


    Hairy mellon wrote: »
    breg blog: Interesting. We noted that the localgov.ie FAQ section was offline earlier this week. It would appear the section dealing with self-builders Question 12 has been revised. Here is the newly worded section- read below for comparison with previous. Can you spot the differences?

    CURRENT "REVISED" VERSION

    12. Can I build my own house myself or by direct labour?

    Yes. You may appoint yourself as the builder and sign the Certificate of compliance (Undertaking by Builder). As the builder, you are responsible for compliance with the Building Regulations. You must sign the Certificate of Compliance on Completion and you must also appoint an Assigned Certifier to inspect the works during construction.

    As an owner, how can I appoint a competent builder?

    A competent person may generally be regarded as a person who possesses sufficient training, experience, and knowledge to enable them to undertake the project tasks they are required to perform having regard to the nature of the project and its scale and complexity. Competence can be verified, for instance, by reference to involvement on previous similar projects. One way of choosing a competent builder is to select a builder included on the Construction Industry Register Ireland (CIRI). Further details may be found on www.ciri.ie

    This is good news. However, there are still two big issues:

    1. Finding an assigned certifier willing to take on the risk of working with a self builder.

    2. How much is it going to cost?

    I'm in the middle of buying a site at the moment and all this is giving me serious reservations.


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    #1109
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,003 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Villain wrote: »
    PI for posting an opinion on a forum ??

    You do not have to offer your opinion professionally to clients, therefore the only opinion that matters in this argument is the option of those that DO have to have PI insurance behind them.

    That's not a slight, it's just how it is.


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    #1110
    4Sticks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    pobber1 wrote: »
    This is good news. However, there are still two big issues:

    1. Finding an assigned certifier willing to take on the risk of working with a self builder.

    2. How much is it going to cost?

    I'm in the middle of buying a site at the moment and all this is giving me serious reservations.

    3. Will you secure funding from a lender ?


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    #1111
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    4Sticks wrote: »
    3. Will you secure funding from a lender ?

    Indeed. We saw recently, on this forum (but in a different thread), that somebody was recently offered a mortgage, but, one condition of that mortgage was the use of a building contractor.

    So while, in theory, it may still be technically possible (for now) to carry out a self build, other 'forces' may simply make it impossible.


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